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  #51  
Old 06-24-2014, 05:12 AM
marvymelvin marvymelvin is offline
Brad Francis
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Default Maris HOF

Roger Maris. Can I bring his name up again? It seemed like 20 years ago everyone was arguing over whether Maris should get into the hall or not. Then it all died down after his final eligibility year. I know that I am a homer for the Yankees, but seriously, Maris deserves another look, especially when we are looking to clean up the game and recognize guys for determination, clean living, and sportsmanship. All of which I believe Maris was a great example. And he had respectable numbers.
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  #52  
Old 06-24-2014, 05:20 AM
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Default What gets lost...

when rules are bent is that you loose both perspective and the thought that, "There, by any other flip of the coin, would be me."

What Baseball has had and struggles mightily to keep is the special contact between the individual ex-player-wanna-be and the skilled professional.

You do not have to be 7-feet tall or 250 pounds or even especially fast. Good, if not great baseball play comes from practice after practice.

I will be the first to admit that I got thoroughly caught up in the afore-mentioned Home Run race of 1998. Everyone wanted to believe. I was on the edge of my seat as not one but two nice-guys surged toward a new standard.

I watched in great appreciation when McGwire seemed to treat the Maris family like great friends who had been neglected for a long time.

I was amazed as both players not only passed but shredded the previous high. Both guys learned to share the emotion of the moment with the adoring fans.

Yes, it was all dreamlike in the summer of 1998. And as one of that following crowd, I carry the guilt of being an enabler.

I really believed in McGwire because he had a great homerun stroke from day 1 as a rookie. He was just a golf-pro working out on a baseball diamond in 1987. I still believe THAT year was legit.

Then came the injuries and the Canseco influence. He went from being a fairly slim big guy to someone with 16-inch forearms...I SAY AGAIN 16-INCH FOREARMS.

Meanwhile, in Chicago, Sammy Sosa was caught with a corked bat which evidently he only used in BP. He said it was 'for the fans.' Right then and there, I knew he did not understand that a bigger part of most of our appreciation is that believing this is someone using the same tools and opportunities that could have been available to anyone.

Then comes Bonds and Clemens, already the best position player and best pitcher of the generation. But that was not enough. These two guys stand on the shoulders of giants who came before them. They had every legitimate advantage and then decided to get more...and more.

There is simply no way to figure out exactly what was legitimate work and what was not. This is like Baseball's version of Wall Street's insider trading.

The National Baseball Hall of Fame is home to some seriously flawed individuals I grant you, but why can't that injustice be stopped.

The writers are flawed in the elections - think of all of the greatest who were not elected unanimously just so someone can have their 15 minutes. (I guess I'm having my 15 hours right now, huh).

Shakespeare said, 'The play is the thing.' - and so, regardless of anything else, the game endures.

Last edited by clydepepper; 06-24-2014 at 05:24 AM.
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  #53  
Old 06-24-2014, 05:26 AM
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Marslife Marslife is offline
Cliff
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Default my pick

Elroy Leon Face (born February 20, 1928 in Stephentown, New York) is a former Major League Baseball right-handed relief pitcher. During a 17-year baseball career, he pitched from 1953–1969, primarily for the Pittsburgh Pirates. A pioneer of modern relief pitching, he was the archetype of what came to be known as the closer, and the National League's greatest reliever until the late 1960s, setting numerous league records during his career.

Face was the first major leaguer to save 20 games more than once, leading the league three times and finishing second three times; in 1959 he set the still-standing major league record for winning percentage (.947) with 18 wins against only one loss. He held the NL record for career games pitched (846) from 1967 until 1986, and the league record for career saves (193) from 1962 until 1982; he still holds the NL record for career wins in relief (96), and he held the league mark for career innings pitched in relief (1,211⅓) until 1983. On his retirement, he ranked third in major league history in pitching appearances, behind only Hoyt Wilhelm and Cy Young, and second in saves behind Wilhelm. Nicknamed "The Baron," he holds the Pirates franchise records for career games (802) and saves (188).
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  #54  
Old 06-24-2014, 05:39 AM
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Default Baseball

It is played everywhere....

In parks, in playgrounds, and prison yards...

In back alleys and farmers' fields...

By small children and old men...

Raw amateurs and millionaire professionals.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

It is a leisurely game

That demands blinding speed.

The only game in which the defense has the ball.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

It follows the seasons...

Beginning each year with the fond expectancy of springtime...

And ending with the hard facts of autumn.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

It is a haunted game...

In which every player is measured against the ghost
of all who have gone before

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Most of all...

It is about time and timelessness...

Speed and grace...

Failure and loss...

Imperishable hope

And

Coming home.
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  #55  
Old 06-24-2014, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marvymelvin View Post
Roger Maris. Can I bring his name up again? It seemed like 20 years ago everyone was arguing over whether Maris should get into the hall or not. Then it all died down after his final eligibility year. I know that I am a homer for the Yankees, but seriously, Maris deserves another look, especially when we are looking to clean up the game and recognize guys for determination, clean living, and sportsmanship. All of which I believe Maris was a great example.
Brad, I'm sorry. I just couldn't put Roger Maris in if I had a vote, as much as I liked the man, and as much as I admire what he accomplished in breaking Babe Ruth's single season home run record. I've never read a persuasive argument in favor of putting him into Cooperstown, and while he may have set a great example with how he lived his life, that in no way strengthens the argument for inducting him into the Hall of Fame. All that counts is what he did when he was wearing his uniform.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marvymelvin View Post
And he had respectable numbers.
He did have respectable numbers. But this is the Hall of Fame we're talking about, which should recognize only the greatest men to have ever played the game.

Roger Maris had two elite seasons, 1960 and 1961 when he won the AL MVP both years. He hit 100 home runs, and drove in 253 runs in those two seasons combined. Beyond those two MVP seasons, he was an All Star two other times, and he received MVP votes just one other time, in 1964 when he finished 25th in the vote. Maris was also a very good outfielder, underrated perhaps. He did win a Gold Glove in 1960.

But as hard as I try, I can't make a good argument in his favor. His career numbers, while good, don't even approach Hall of Fame consideration.

.260 AVG, 275 home runs, 850 RBI.
He had 1,325 hits. 195 doubles. 42 triples. He stole 21 bases.
His career slash line .345 OBP/.476 SLG/.822 OPS is good, but not great by any means.

Besides his two MVP seasons, he hit over 30 home runs in one other season, 1962, when he hit 33. That was also the only other season when he drove in 100 or more runs, at 100 exactly.
He hit 28 home runs in 1958, 23 home runs in 1963, and 26 in 1964. After the 1964 season, when he was 30 years old, he'd never hit more than 13 home runs in a single season again.

Roger didn't perform well in the post season, either. He was a .217 hitter in 41 career post season games. He had 33 hits in 152 at bats, with 6 home runs and 18 RBI. His .298 OBP/.369 SLG/.667 OPS wouldn't exactly excite the Veterans Committee.

Try as I may, the only thing Roger has going for him are his two MVP seasons, and there are other players with much better careers that have won two MVPs, and not made it into the Hall of Fame (Dale Murphy, for one, comes to mind).
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Last edited by the 'stache; 06-24-2014 at 06:18 AM.
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  #56  
Old 06-24-2014, 06:29 AM
bbcard1 bbcard1 is offline
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Understanding this is a pre-war board and I am likely to open myself up to some criticism here…we have throughly exhausted good candidates from the pre-1950 era and, if we could, should probably remove several of them. The 1960s and 1970s are pretty underrepresented, especially the 60s where offense was so throttled.
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  #57  
Old 06-24-2014, 06:32 AM
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I also wonder how the marginal pre-1947 HOFers (Hafey, Marquard, Bresnahan, Klein, Bottomly, etc...) would have done if they had to pitch against players similar to Willie Mays, Henry Aaron or had to hit against Bob Gibson, Juan Marichal, etc...
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  #58  
Old 06-24-2014, 06:41 AM
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Imagine a world where every prewar player and batboy was in the Hall of Fame and our collections were worth millions as a result. All in favor.........
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  #59  
Old 06-24-2014, 06:55 AM
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I try not to judge players I never saw, not really fair to judge on stats alone. The only player I would put in thats not already is Mike Piazza, I believe he will get in eventually

There are quite a few players I would take out though.
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  #60  
Old 06-24-2014, 07:32 AM
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I think Gene Tenace. He ranks 13th in JAWS on the catcher's list, above several HOF players:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_C.shtml

Also, Thurmon Munson
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  #61  
Old 06-24-2014, 07:38 AM
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There is a Hall of Fame A and a Hall of Fame B. HOF A players you don't even have to think about. There is not a whole lot of them. HOF B are players require a hard look. Lots of people think requiring a hard look should be reason enough to prevent a player's induction. And I agree. Of course it's way more complicated than that b/c some feel 300 wins means automatic Hall, others don't think that is so. That's one example of many.

As for Clemens and Bonds, most writers are quick to point out they they were Hall of Famers before their embarrassingly obvious and shameless PED use. But I'm not entirely sure. Clemens got up to Toronto in 1997, dyed his hair blond and found the fountain of youth, and we all know what that fountain was comprised of. His numbers before PED use: 192-111, 3.16. Are these the numbers of a sure fire, absolutely no doubt hall of famer? Maybe they are. Maybe they are not...
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  #62  
Old 06-24-2014, 07:47 AM
howard38 howard38 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the 'stache View Post
As to the question at hand, who should be in the Hall that isn't? I don't think the answer to this is easy. Not at all. People who aren't in Cooperstown have been vetted. Their careers have been looked over with a fine tooth comb, and for some reason, they didn't meet that standard. Are there a few players that I feel are worthy of another look? Yes. There are always exceptions. Hell, look at the NFL Hall of Fame. Jerry Kramer, the great offensive guard for the Lombardi Packers of the 60s...5 time First Team All-Pro, 3-time Pro Bowler, 5 time World Champion, voted to both the NFL 1960's All Decade Team, and the NFL's 50th Anniversary Team. Inexplicably, he's not in the Hall of Fame. But if it were up to me, I'd be removing more players than I'd be putting in. The Hall is supposed to be for the very best of the best, and there are some people in there that got in because of cronyism.

Who would I consider going in?

That I'll have to think about.
That's surprising, I would have bet good money that Kramer was in. It's actually inexplicable to me and adds to my belief that HOF voting for football and baseball is often without rhyme or reason.
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  #63  
Old 06-24-2014, 07:53 AM
Brian Van Horn Brian Van Horn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcoz View Post
Dave Parker for sure!! Was as good if not better than Rice & Dawson who are already in. Take a look!

7× All-Star (1977, 1979–1981, 1985, 1986, 1990)
2× World Series champion (1979, 1989)
NL MVP (1978)
3× Gold Glove Award (1977–1979)
3× Silver Slugger Award (1985, 1986, 1990)
All-Star Game MVP (1979)
2× NL batting champion (1977, 1978)
Home Run Derby winner (1985)

Batting average .290
Hits 2,712
Home runs 339
Runs batted in 1,493
I hate saying this as a Pirate fan, but I don't see Parker getting in because of the 1985 coke trials in Pittsburgh. It is probably the same reason that Bill Madlock, who has four batting titles, will not get into the Hall of Fame.

Now, another former Pirate, Al Oliver, could be considered. Great defensive centerfielder and over 2700 hits with a .303 lifetime batting average.

Last edited by Brian Van Horn; 06-24-2014 at 07:53 AM.
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  #64  
Old 06-24-2014, 08:05 AM
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Throwing another vote towards Harry Stovey. I don't care if he played in the AA. It was a recognized major league just as much as the upstart American League was when it started.

Stovey led leagues in home runs 5 times. Finished as the career leader and was third as late as 1920 (his career ended in 1893). Throughout his career he led the league in over 20 offensive categories and may have stolen up to 800 bases.

When he retired, he was the career leader in both home runs and stolen bases AND held the single season records for both categories.

He was the first great power hitter in a game that celebrates power hitters. But he is not in the HOF.

Last edited by packs; 06-24-2014 at 08:22 AM.
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  #65  
Old 06-24-2014, 08:14 AM
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the 'stache the 'stache is offline
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That's surprising, I would have bet good money that Kramer was in. It's actually inexplicable to me and adds to my belief that HOF voting for football and baseball is often without rhyme or reason.
That's the reaction I get most every time I bring him up. He's the only player on the NFL's 50th Anniversary Team not in Canton.

The explanation I've heard for this slight is "there are already too many of the Lombardi-era Packers in the Hall". That's hogwash, imo. That's like saying "hey, sorry, Mr. Jeter. You can't get into Cooperstown because there are too many Yankees already in the Hall." The Halls of Fame are there to recognize excellence, and Kramer was one of the all-time greats. Besides, linebacker Dave Robinson was just elected to the Hall of Fame last year, and he was a member of Lombardi's Packers from 1963 to 1967. So, maybe they can find a spot for #64, too. It would be a crying shame if they didn't put him in while he is still alive. He's 78 years old. The time is now.
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  #66  
Old 06-24-2014, 08:27 AM
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Raymond 'Robbie' Culpepper
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Default Let's take a pole on idiots:

How many typers (I won't call them writers) will not vote for Derek Jeter? Mariano Rivera?

Anyone who does not vote them in should not only have their vote taken away but should also (and I'll quote a Clint Eastwood movie now) "Anyone who would do that should have their A*S removed."

I am neither a Yankee Fan or Hater, but this is just too obvious.

They will justify it by saying, "Well, so-and-so didn't get every vote, so why should they."

Stupidity does not justify stupidity.
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  #67  
Old 06-24-2014, 08:28 AM
K-Nole K-Nole is offline
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After doing a little research on a player I bought a card of and not knowing much about it, I found that, Frederick "Cy" Williams, should be in the HOF IMO.

The Williams Shift, in which defensive players moved to the right side of the playing field, is often associated with Ted Williams, but it was actually first employed against Cy Williams during the 1920s.

He was a 4X NL Home Run Champion.
He was the first NL player to break the 200 HR mark.
He was one of only 3 players, born before 1900 to hit more than 200HRs, with the other two being Babe Ruth and Rogers Hornsby.

Just my opinion, but I think he should have been voted in years ago.
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  #68  
Old 06-24-2014, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Van Horn View Post
I hate saying this as a Pirate fan, but I don't see Parker getting in because of the 1985 coke trials in Pittsburgh. It is probably the same reason that Bill Madlock, who has four batting titles, will not get into the Hall of Fame.

Now, another former Pirate, Al Oliver, could be considered. Great defensive centerfielder and over 2700 hits with a .303 lifetime batting average.
Brian, I completely agree with all your points. It's a shame but true. Al Oliver should more consideration for sure.
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  #69  
Old 06-24-2014, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the 'stache View Post
As to the question at hand, who should be in the Hall that isn't? I don't think the answer to this is easy. Not at all. People who aren't in Cooperstown have been vetted. Their careers have been looked over with a fine tooth comb, and for some reason, they didn't meet that standard. Are there a few players that I feel are worthy of another look? Yes. There are always exceptions. Hell, look at the NFL Hall of Fame. Jerry Kramer, the great offensive guard for the Lombardi Packers of the 60s...5 time First Team All-Pro, 3-time Pro Bowler, 5 time World Champion, voted to both the NFL 1960's All Decade Team, and the NFL's 50th Anniversary Team. Inexplicably, he's not in the Hall of Fame. But if it were up to me, I'd be removing more players than I'd be putting in. The Hall is supposed to be for the very best of the best, and there are some people in there that got in because of cronyism.

Who would I consider going in?

That I'll have to think about.
I agree on Kramer, I also think Jim Marshall is deserving.
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Old 06-24-2014, 08:41 AM
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Ok, getting back to the topic at hand. Who do I feel should be in the Hall that isn't.

One player that I've kept hearing over and over again is Dick Allen. And, I must admit, though I knew about him, I'd never really taken a long hard look at his numbers. When you consider the era that he played in, his performance, in my opinion, definitely warrants a second look. If I had a BBWAA vote, I would put him in. And here's one reason why.

Dick Allen (also known as Richie Allen) played from 1963 to 1977. While his career numbers are nice, they don't tell the whole story, as is so often the case.

In his fifteen seasons, Allen hit .292 with 351 home runs and 1,119 RBI. He was a Rookie of the Year, and an NL MVP. He led his league in runs once, in triples once, in home runs twice, in RBI once, in On Base Pct twice, in Slugging Pct three times, and in OPS 4 times.

Now, as I have said before, as somebody who tends to rely a little more on the old school statistical analysis, and not quite as much (yet) on sabermetrics, I find a player's OPS to be one of the nest indicators of a player's offensive potency. It combines on base percentage and slugging percentage together. And in baseball, as an offensive player, a hitter's goals are getting on base, and providing power. Some players do one or the other well. And occasionally, those really transcendent players excel in both areas. Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Mickey Mantle, Stan Musial, Joe DiMaggio, Lou Gehrig, Ted Williams, Babe Ruth...these players are the elite offensive forces of the game's history.

If we look at the period of 1963 to 1977, which was Allen's career span, 15 years (which is 11 seasons, really. His rookie season he batted only 24 times. In 1973, he only had 250 at bats. His second to last season, 1976, he batted only 298 times. And his final season, 1977, he had only 171 at bats), Allen put up some impressive numbers. Now, compare those seasons to his peers.

I searched Baseball Reference for all seasons between 1963 and 1977 where a player had 400 or more at bats, and an .850 or higher slugging percentage. Look who was at the top of the list, tied with Hank Aaron:



The results on Baseball Reference.

In his 11 qualifying seasons, Allen had 10 seasons with over 400 at bats and an .850 or higher OPS. That's a big part of his excellent career slash line.

.378 OBP/.534 SLG/.912 OPS

A .912 OPS in that era? Are you kidding me?

While there might be a few other players that deserve another look, Dick Allen is going to be at the top of my list.
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  #71  
Old 06-24-2014, 08:51 AM
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I grow weary of the Hall of Really Good versus Hall of Fame argument. Some players will always be better than others. If we had a Hall of Best there would only be one person. Where does one draw this supposed line? Many modern players will get in that some will think are unworthy or whose numbers are pedestrian. To say that most of the best players of the game were before the modern era or vice versa is a moot point. It's just silly to always compare apples to oranges.
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  #72  
Old 06-24-2014, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Nole View Post
After doing a little research on a player I bought a card of and not knowing much about it, I found that, Frederick "Cy" Williams, should be in the HOF IMO.

The Williams Shift, in which defensive players moved to the right side of the playing field, is often associated with Ted Williams, but it was actually first employed against Cy Williams during the 1920s.

He was a 4X NL Home Run Champion.
He was the first NL player to break the 200 HR mark.
He was one of only 3 players, born before 1900 to hit more than 200HRs, with the other two being Babe Ruth and Rogers Hornsby.

Just my opinion, but I think he should have been voted in years ago.
You should look up the Baker Bowl where he played - tiny - inflated stats
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  #73  
Old 06-24-2014, 09:10 AM
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To me a HOFer is like the Supreme Court definition of obscenity -- you know one when you see one and they usually get elected on the first ballot. Jeter and Rivera, absolutely. Dick Allen? No. Al Oliver? No.
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Old 06-24-2014, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by K-Nole View Post
After doing a little research on a player I bought a card of and not knowing much about it, I found that, Frederick "Cy" Williams, should be in the HOF IMO.

The Williams Shift, in which defensive players moved to the right side of the playing field, is often associated with Ted Williams, but it was actually first employed against Cy Williams during the 1920s.

He was a 4X NL Home Run Champion.
He was the first NL player to break the 200 HR mark.
He was one of only 3 players, born before 1900 to hit more than 200HRs, with the other two being Babe Ruth and Rogers Hornsby.

Just my opinion, but I think he should have been voted in years ago.

I just looked it up to satisfy my own curiosity:

Right Field Wall was 280 feet from home ; the 'power' alley in right-center was only 300 feet.

And, yes, Cy Williams was left-handed

So this was the 1920's version of a left-handed slugger in Yankee Stadium (310 feet- in right or 20 feet short of the norm)
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Old 06-24-2014, 09:37 AM
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I think the HOF already has too many members, with lots of marginal players that probably don't belong. Therefore, I'm against admitting any more borderline players into the Hall. It should be limited to the exceptional ballplayer who had a stellar career, and not the very good one who put up some decent numbers.
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Old 06-24-2014, 09:49 AM
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To me a HOFer is like the Supreme Court definition of obscenity -- you know one when you see one and they usually get elected on the first ballot. Jeter and Rivera, absolutely. Dick Allen? No. Al Oliver? No.
What makes Derek Jeter so much better than Allen? Derek Jeter has been a great player, I don't deny that. But he's never been the best player in baseball. I would argue that he's never been the best shortstop in baseball, either.

You also have to look at what he's accomplished offensively in the context of the era in which he's played. Allen destroyed pitchers in an era where pitchers dominated the game. Jeter has racked up the hits in an era favoring hitters. How many expansion teams were added while Jeter was a player? The Rockies and Marlins came in two years before his career started. The Dbacks and Rays joined in 1998. That's a lot of pitchers that wouldn't have been in the Majors if not for the expansion teams. If you look at the offensive explosion that took place during Jeter's career, his numbers aren't nearly as impressive as the ones Allen put up.

Just my opinion, but I have to disagree with ya, Peter.

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You should look up the Baker Bowl where he played - tiny - inflated stats
Ah, the Baker Bowl. Also known as "the reason Chuck Klein is in the Hall of Fame".

In his first 5.5 years with the Phillies, Klein his .359 with 699 runs scored, 1,209 hits, 246 doubles, 191 home runs, 727 RBI, and a ridiculous slash line of .412/.632/1.044. In 1930, he hit .386 with 158 runs scored, 250 hits, 59 doubles, 9 triples, 40 home runs, 170 RBI and 445 total bases. He averaged 239 hits every 162 games.
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Old 06-24-2014, 09:50 AM
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3400 hits, for one thing. Meaningless in the context of the era he played in, right? I don't think so.

And let's compare some meaningless baseball reference HOF numbers which are, I believe, adjusted for era.

Jeter
Hall of Fame Monitor Batting - 334 (11), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards Batting - 67 (19), Average HOFer ≈ 50

Allen
Hall of Fame Monitor Batting - 99 (163), Likely HOFer ≈ 100

Hall of Fame Standards Batting - 39 (178), Average HOFer ≈ 50
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Old 06-24-2014, 10:03 AM
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Bill, I have a challenge for you. I bet you could come up with some stats to show that Willie Stargell (classic victim of 60s suppressed stats, no?) was better than Joe DiMaggio.
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Old 06-24-2014, 10:05 AM
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How can you say Dick Allen is more deserving than Derek Jeter? Jeter plays a premium position and has outlasted everyone who would have claimed a spot ahead of him as best shortstop in the league. A-rod was a cheater and Nomar flamed out. Jeter is above and beyond the premier shortstop of his time and I don't even like him.

Last edited by packs; 06-24-2014 at 10:07 AM.
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Old 06-24-2014, 10:31 AM
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IMO Allen's biggest problem as a HOF candidate is that he was viewed, rightly or wrongly, as a clubhouse cancer throughout a large part of his career. His offensive numbers in the context of his time are pretty solid but he doesn't seem to be able to shake the reputation thing.
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Old 06-24-2014, 10:34 AM
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Jack Morris
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Pete Rose

We'll keep it simple
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Old 06-24-2014, 10:46 AM
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My personal opinion is that there are not enough players in the HOF. I know I'm in the minority, but my own test is that if a player dominated for 5 or so years and was considered one of he best handful of baseball players on the planet, then he deserves to be enshrined. It shouldn't just be for players that were "lucky" enough to play for 20 years and reached some random statistical milestones.

Eddie Murray was a great player and deserves to be in based on his total career. But, his most dominant 4 or 5 year stretch was on par with the likes of Maris, Dick Allen, Dale Murphy, and Mattingly. All of them even won MVP's unlike Murray. Murray played 21 years ('77 - '97) and compiled the numbers, but his last "dominant" season was 1985 after which he never led the league in any major stat.

To me, it's the "Hall of FAME", not the "Hall of lucky enough to stay healthy and play 20 years". I equate fame with dominance, and in my opinion players who dominated the game for half a decade are considered famous which includes the likes Dave Parker and Greg Luzinski as well.

The HOF is really just a baseball museum. Maybe it should be split into Tiers. For those of you who believe only guys with long, great, careers that amassed the magical numbers should be in, well then you can just visit the "Top Tier" part of the museum. But for guys like me who don't want to forget the players who dominated the game for a shorter time, well then we can spend our time in the lesser Tiers.

For the PED guys: They should be part of the museum. Sticking with my "Tier" idea, I guess they'd be considered the bottom tier. Maybe they can have the basement.
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Old 06-24-2014, 10:51 AM
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Haha that's a novel idea. This way to the Mark McGwire bathroom. Please exit the museum through the Barry Bonds side door.
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Old 06-24-2014, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Cole View Post
IMO Allen's biggest problem as a HOF candidate is that he was viewed, rightly or wrongly, as a clubhouse cancer throughout a large part of his career. His offensive numbers in the context of his time are pretty solid but he doesn't seem to be able to shake the reputation thing.

I compare Dick Allen with Albert Belle - very, very similar

Great Hitters but poor Teammates.
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Old 06-24-2014, 11:36 AM
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Default Bob Johnson

Robert L (Bob) Johnson

Take a look at his page on baseball-reference.com:

http://www.baseball-...johnsbo01.shtml

He started his major league career late at age 27 but hit the ground running. Career LOW OPS+ was 125 at age 39. He finished in the top 10 in the AL in the following categories:

Offensive WAR: 5 times
Slugging %: 10 times
OPS: 9 times
Runs scored: 4 times
Total Bases: 8 times
Triples: 5 times
Home Runs: 11 times
RBI: 7 times
Walks: 8 times
OPS+: 10 times
Runs created: 9 times
Adjusted batting runs: 9 times
Assists as Left Fielder: 12 times (he is the all-time leader)

Remember, he played just 13 seasons in the majors.

His Grey Ink HOF monitor # is 161. The average HOF player is 144.

His HOF monitor # is 92. A likely HOF player is 100 (his number is low due to lower career numbers from getting such a late start)

His HOF Standards # is 46 where the average HOF player is 50.

Johnson was a stud of a baseball player and should be in the Hall.

Tom C
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Old 06-24-2014, 11:37 AM
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Jim Kaat, 284 wins and 16 gold gloves.

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Old 06-24-2014, 01:07 PM
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No. Never.
If anyone at all from the steroid era is going to be allowed into the hall, then i see no reason as to why Barry Bonds should not be allowed.
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Old 06-24-2014, 01:09 PM
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Gil Hodges and Ted Simmons for me.
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Old 06-24-2014, 01:26 PM
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Can anyone offer up a logical, coherent explanation for why Gil Hodges is NOT in the Hall of Fame?
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Old 06-24-2014, 01:34 PM
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If anyone at all from the steroid era is going to be allowed into the hall, then i see no reason as to why Barry Bonds should not be allowed.
Bonds was a HOFer before he juiced and ruined it after he did
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Old 06-24-2014, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clydepepper View Post
I just looked it up to satisfy my own curiosity:

Right Field Wall was 280 feet from home ; the 'power' alley in right-center was only 300 feet.

And, yes, Cy Williams was left-handed

So this was the 1920's version of a left-handed slugger in Yankee Stadium (310 feet- in right or 20 feet short of the norm)
More like Coors Field. Yankee Stadium doesn't have near the effect on stats as the Baker Bowl did and Coors Field has now. The Baker Bowl made poor hitters seem good and good hitters seem great. I don't know if Chuck Klein was a great hitter or not but he batted over .400 at home three straight years in the 1930s while batting under .300 on the road each season and with considerably less power.
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Old 06-24-2014, 01:57 PM
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Why isn't Gil Hodges in the HOF? Because Don Mattingly isn't in yet. Mattingly deserves it at least as much as Hodges. Both were half a career clear HOFers, and both had sub-HOF second halves of their careers. They are remarkably similar players.
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Old 06-24-2014, 02:06 PM
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Default Hof

Allie Reynolds
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Old 06-24-2014, 02:10 PM
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Lefty O'Doul
Pete Rose if Barry Bonds gets in...
What the heck!
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Old 06-24-2014, 02:34 PM
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Pete Browning
Tony Mullane


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Old 06-24-2014, 03:28 PM
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Default Hall of Fame

Gil Hodges:
He was HOF ball player, a HOF manager and a HOF person.

Pete Rose:
He was a HOF ballplayer-he may not personally belong but his carreer statistics sure do
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Old 06-24-2014, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VoodooChild View Post
My personal opinion is that there are not enough players in the HOF. I know I'm in the minority, but my own test is that if a player dominated for 5 or so years and was considered one of he best handful of baseball players on the planet, then he deserves to be enshrined. It shouldn't just be for players that were "lucky" enough to play for 20 years and reached some random statistical milestones.

Eddie Murray was a great player and deserves to be in based on his total career. But, his most dominant 4 or 5 year stretch was on par with the likes of Maris, Dick Allen, Dale Murphy, and Mattingly. All of them even won MVP's unlike Murray. Murray played 21 years ('77 - '97) and compiled the numbers, but his last "dominant" season was 1985 after which he never led the league in any major stat.

To me, it's the "Hall of FAME", not the "Hall of lucky enough to stay healthy and play 20 years". I equate fame with dominance, and in my opinion players who dominated the game for half a decade are considered famous which includes the likes Dave Parker and Greg Luzinski as well.
Using your logic, Johan Santana is a HOFer. Being great is a combination of talent and consistency. Santana was great, but not deserving of Cooperstown.
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Old 06-24-2014, 04:08 PM
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Galarraga for the Hall! He had a great 5 year stretch, after all. And 399 HR.
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Old 06-24-2014, 05:26 PM
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Wilbur Cooper
Babe Adams
Luis Tiant
Vern Stephens
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Old 06-24-2014, 05:55 PM
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Apropos of nothing...The strangest part of this thread is the fact that multiple people mentioned Tommy John. For some bizarre reason, I always thought he was already in Cooperstown. I was certain of it. In fact, when I'm listing trades of HOF'ers, he's frequently included. How in living heck did I miss this fact all of these years?? I'm perplexed. Yowza!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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