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#1
05-08-2009, 05:32 PM
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www.T206museum and Collector Linked to Fake T206 Overprints.
I ask in advance you forgive my Sixteen Candles references below but laughing is all I can do to keep from blowing my top on this one.
“Hey Howard there’s your Chinaman in the front yard and his pockets are stuffed with fake T206 overprint cards..” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tktNZpUTMoQ This is going to be an interactive post so use all links to garner the full story and the steps it took to a handful of us to get to the bottom of one of the bigger scams in our hobby. I along with some other folks have been questioning the authenticity of T206 Old Mill “Black” overprints for some time. In fact so much so that I set out to win the current Old Mill OP in REA this year. My plan was to have my own copy to do tests on and examine in full detail out of the holder. I had seen one other but it was in a private collection and I wasn’t going to ask if I could break their card out to debunk…LOL Amongst my ongoing investigation of collected images and notes along with my current winning bid in REA, I was brought up to speed on another angle of a similar investigation by Jim Rivera. Jim and I had met for the first time in PA at the new Reading show. Jim mentioned to me his doubts as did I. He shared a piece of information that made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. That tidbit of info is that one collector named Pat Chan had owned 2 other Old Mill OP and wouldn’t it be odd if the card in REA was his as well. We raised the question and concerns with Rob Lifson of REA and understood if he didn’t want to tell due to privacy issues of consignors we understood. We asked him only to tell if it was in fact Chan. Shocked we found out it was in fact consigned by Patrick Chan! This now proved that Chan has had three examples of a next to impossible to find T206 oddity. Dan Mckee and Jim Rivera also thought Chan might in fact be the owner of the famed T206 information site T206musuem.com. But had no proof to tie Chan to the site that was famous for hyping these T206 oddities. At that point I contacted Rob Lifson with our collective thoughts. Rob sent the card back to SGC for a second look. SGC came back and said it looked good but upon hearing all of the info and noting that Chan was the submitter for grading at SGC….SGC began to have concerns as well. They asked Rob if he knew of anybody else who might review the card for a second opinion. Rob asked SGC to send the card to me for review. At that point I felt compelled to contact the other collectors I knew who in fact had one of these questionable cards. I reluctantly brought them up to speed and asked if I could also review their card in person they willing agreed. Upon receiving both cards I began my investigation of which can be found at the link below for your review as well. http://imageevent.com/piojohn3/fraud...milloverprints Please Read Link Above Before Reading On. Or you can download a full version here... http://www.box.net/shared/bep1nopzsq My conclusions were that all “Black” Old Mill Overprints are in fact forgeries and at best original “Red” Old Mill Overprints weren’t different back examples or series just hand cut printers scraps that made it of the factory with a different brand stamp mark. This very information deemed these “Black” cards to be fake but with no hard evidence to point to who made them only lots of circumstantial evidence that Chan was involved having so many examples. This information was then forwarded to an FBI agent.  After reading the information and discussing with me and Rob Lifson the FBI felt there was enough information to pay Mr. Chan a visit.   The FBI did in fact pay Mr. Chan a visit and though we don’t have any information on the exact details of that day here’s what we can tell you.  The FBI agent as requested the cards back. Mr. Chan the day of the raid if you will has contacted all owners of these cards in an attempt to work deals for their return and to compensate those who owned them. Mr. Chan has also admitted to owning and printing them as well as being tied directly to T206museum.com by admitting ownership from the recently deleted “Black Double Bar” which was listed for sale on T206musuem.com for 35k. This card can be found in the linked booklet. This card was part of a so called 250 card Old Mill find of T210’s and T206’s which can now be proven as false. He has also in a private emails in which I was privy too admitted to making the “Single” bar versions as well. Here are a few excerpts directly from Chan himself. I have removed the names of the innocent parties that were scammed by Chan. If they choose to come forward that is their decision. Email from Patrick Chan the day of the FBI visit to known owner of one of the 4 fake cards… “I am deeply sorry for everything. I know I was stupid and made all these messes. I guess I was just too crazy about t206s. Honestly, I created those overprints a long time ago for my own enjoyment and not for money. When there was a time many collectors bitching about PSA didn't know anything about vintage cards so I decided to submit my creations to PSA and tested how much they know about those overprints and turned out they really didn't know anything about them and that's how they got encapsulated. Anyways, I posted my Lipe on eBay (with no intention of selling it) and solely for showmanship. I did received a lot of cash offers and I refused every single one of them until REMOVED NAME offered me a trade deals that involved some t206 oddities that I have never seen before. At that time, my "fever" and "craziness" on t206 oddities completely covered my sane and heart and evenutally traded out the Hart. I had an agreement with NAME REMOVED that if he ever wanted to sell the Hart and I will buy it back from him, unfortunately, my cash flow was tight and I wasn't able to buy it back. Anyways, I am very sorry for what I have caused to your family and all of the disappointment. In fact, I am glad you are the one who has the Hart (since I know the owner) so I can fix the stupid mess in an easier fashion. Ironically, I am also glad FBI was involved so I can finally realized how stupid I was and finally wake up and realized how much I have done to the hobby.” Second email from Patrick Chan to the same collectors upon working out a deal… “I really hope the $k can compensation of what I did to you, and your family. Please pass my apology to BLANK and the rest of your family. I still love this hobby and I have decided not to touch any of my collection for sometime to cool down my "t-fever". I wish you best of luck building your collections. I hope you and BLANK would keep my stupid acts in a low profile since I really feel ashamed of myself and really hope I can use my t206 knowledge and collection that I have to educate more collectors in a positive way when I come back to the hobby in the future. I am really sorry for the "betrayal of trust".” page two coming... Last edited by wonkaticket; 05-09-2009 at 10:03 AM. |
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#2
05-08-2009, 05:33 PM
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 "wassa hapening scam artist" A little insight into Chan... Funny picture of the Donger I know…but I’m sorry Mr. Chan “No more yankee my wankee” I’m calling BS.    I don’t buy the “it was an innocent mistake or a game to see what you can get slabbed.” No offense fooling PSA or any grading company really isn’t that hard, it ends up like being the tallest midget who would you brag too. You fooled these grading companies and collectors for one reason greed pure and simple. That makes you a con artist at best! But more like a clown and a no good crook. I guess the email below was also an innocent mistake. You know Chan the one when you try to convince the current owners of the Hart card not to sell it to me. Also the one where you said you didn’t own the Revelle and hinted at shill bidding…. In fact I have seen quite a few emails in which Mr. Chan lies about these cards. To Pat Chan….from Hart owners.“ Pat, Actually I'm still trying to get the complete back set but a nice condition Broadleaf 460 is a killer to get ... as well as the OM double overprint. Do you have any idea as to how after so many years with no OM overprints ever seen, now in addition to the one I have, yours, the one on REA and the T206 Museum [all in black ink] they all of a sudden seem to be available? Do you think these are all from the same group and are there others that you know of? And how will that affect the prices? The price on REA does seem low so far.” Response from Chan… “I am not certain, but I think those single overprint backs could be from the same group and the double overprints in t206museum is from the other found with all those T210s. Regards to their values, I think if I don't sell mine and u don't sell yours in the near future then our single overprint backs can still hold the value. I think they "all of a sudden" available to the market mainly due to the booming of Internet and Net54 forum. I think as long as we keep our overprints in low key and hoping the new owner of the overprint from REA isn't a flipper then we should be ok. I am tempting to win that overprint from REA if it stays under 5k.” I guess that above is more of those innocent mistakes…right Chan? Funny to me it seems like a scam artist covering a mess knowing the heat is on, and lying once again to nice collectors. Also seems funny you would bid on your own card in REA…besides why bid and spend money just make a few more. But please don’t’ make more than say 11 or you’ll screw up your rarity list on your website T206musuem.com. http://www.t206museum.com/page/ch_scbklt.html It’s all bull because… You don’t on a whim produce a stamp which I’m sure took time and energy, stamp cards and get them graded. Then produce a website to hype fake cards with website full of fake finds and bogus articles about cards you made. You also don’t accidently consign cards to auction houses and sign contracts with folks like Rob Lifson and sell your creations. Let me guess Mr. Chan would have accidently taken that 35k for the fake “Double Bar” OP on the website T206museum.com as well if someone arranged payment? You will also notice by some miracle the links and articles on these amazing rare “Black” Old Mill overstrikes are no longer up….hmmm wonder why. Chan you’re crazy for T206’s alright. So crazy that you would scam, cheat and screw any collector of T206’s you can find to take advantage of for your own gain. The sad and truly horrible thing out of this whole mess is the fact that he has now created a mess of fake information that many amateur T206 collectors took as gospel from a trusted source T206musuem.com. Also even more crazy if you will is that he will most likely walk when all is said and done. He should be having some hot cups of...while in his jail cell.  The facts are simple… The website http://www.t206museum.com/page/index.html is a website that uses genuine information as an avenue to produce and hype forged T206 oddities. You should avoid any dealings with the webmasters and owners of this site unless they can come forward and prove their innocence. One funny note just before this went public today these very folks after Rob Lifson made a donation to the site. Emailed Rob to let him know that this lot was not legit…yet the same folks consigned and hyped the fake Revelle in the same auction…LOL what a great bunch of guys. http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/...x?itemid=11697 http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/...x?itemid=11728 “Black” Old Mill Overprints double or single are fakes. They were made by one collector for the purpose of obtaining real cards from innocent collectors. Don’t count on grading companies to protect you from guys like Chan as it is very clear that won’t be your best line of defense. Always trust your nose guys and do your homework or even ask questions from the many knowledgeable folks here. IMPORTANT if you have had any dealings with Patrick Chan on questionable cards or have fallen victim to one of these fake overprints please email me and I will make sure to get your information to the proper authorities. Thanks for reading hopefully the hobby is a little safer today...but not by much… Cheers, John *had to add second post as first post was to long for new forum* **All the cards pictured are off the market and will be destroyed, if you are aware of any others let me know** Last edited by wonkaticket; 05-09-2009 at 10:09 AM. |
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#5
05-08-2009, 05:50 PM
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John, that was one hilarious post.
After reading it all I can say is that damn FBI, they sure hate fraudulent overprints. As for that agent that you pictured taking a snooze on the bench, he looks eerily familiar; I think I may have cross-examined him in the past. Will you at least invite him to the National?
__________________
http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/sets |
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#7
05-08-2009, 07:01 PM
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Fantastic job, John!
__________________
I've learned that I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy it. |
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#8
05-08-2009, 07:12 PM
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Now you all know why I posted my t206museum post on the old board. There was only one reason to be anonymous, and it was because the owner was a thief!! Period!
A few of the creations were graded by psa and 1 by sgc. The sgc one has been busted out and destroyed. Thank you sgc for your cooperation after being notified of the fake. THE T206 MUSEUM WAS CREATED TO DECEIVE AND STEAL, PERIOD! Remember, always buy graded cards, you are guaranteed that you are getting real cards that are unaltered. Priceless. Last edited by danmckee; 05-08-2009 at 07:14 PM. |
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#10
05-08-2009, 07:43 PM
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www.T206museum and Collector Linked to Fake T206
WOW! Always thought the site was fraudulent. Especially the unopened T206 boxes. Now I wonder if the card that was pulled out of a piedmont pack was legit.
edited to add new T206 sentencing formula: Base Term: 5-10 years Fraud Multiplier: 2.5 Aggravated Circumstances: 5 Price = 10 X 2.5 X 5 = 125 years in prison. Last edited by rdwyer; 05-08-2009 at 07:53 PM. |
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#11
05-08-2009, 07:55 PM
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Excellent job, John. EXCELLENT job.
-Al |
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#12
05-08-2009, 08:04 PM
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Great work John!
And to show my appreciation, here's one of my favorite parts from Sixteen Candles: Grandma Helen: Oh Sam, let me take a look at you. Fred, she's gotten her boobies. Grandpa Fred: I better get my magnifying glass. Ha Ha Ha. Grandma Helen: Oh, and they are so PERKY. Samantha: I can't believe my grandmother actually felt me up.
__________________
craig_w67217@yahoo.com |
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#13
05-08-2009, 08:12 PM
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Great Work John
Great Work John,
It is nice to see the "Bad Guys" outed. Things like this really make me  !So mad, I almost ruptured a HYENA......That's Hernia! Love the Donger references. Still one of my all-time favorite movies! |
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#17
05-08-2009, 09:03 PM
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Great work John!
"Relax, would you? We have seventy dollars and a pair of girls underpants. We're safe as kittens." |
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#19
05-08-2009, 09:11 PM
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Great post John and this is one of the reason's I stopped collecting the "T" cards as my favorite T cards are the T-210 Old Mill Red borders.Love your posts as they are always informative and love the wit as well.
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#20
05-08-2009, 09:16 PM
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Super, Super work John. Don't collect T-206 backs but I am sure there are other areas of the hobby that need this kind of detective work. Thank you and the others who worked on this.
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#21
05-08-2009, 09:27 PM
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I should have know better............
than to help the anonymous website owner with developing the back multipliers that he had listed on the site. Even with all the help I gave him, he never let me know his name (that was about 6 or 7 years ago). All I can say to this is WOW. Thank god I never was offered one of those fakes......
E. Angyal |
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#22
05-08-2009, 09:49 PM
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Thanks guys and it was a great team effort by all.
I will be posting later in the BST these rare Men's White Underpants with Brown Overprint...once owned and wore by Chan the day the FBI showed up!  Get your bids in early these are bound to go high.. |
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#23
05-08-2009, 09:57 PM
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Base Term: 5-10 years
Fraud Multiplier: 2.5 Aggravated Circumstances: 5 Price = 10 X 2.5 X 5 = 125 years in prison. Richard so funny! |
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#24
05-08-2009, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
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#25
05-08-2009, 10:34 PM
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Sweet....the T206museum mystery is solved!!!!!!!!!
oh and nice work on that other stuff. 
__________________
Looking for Nebraska Indians memorabilia, photos and postcards |
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#27
05-08-2009, 11:15 PM
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This information cannot leave this room. Ok? It would devastate my reputation as a dude.
No problem. I've never bagged a babe. I'm not a stud. John, you are a dude and a stud !!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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#28
05-08-2009, 11:36 PM
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John,
Great work...Another total scam brought to light...If I were the owners I would be very careful accepting any kind of settlement from Chan. I think punishment might be in order and I am sure the law has some kind of damages that can be assessed for this type of thing (Adam or Jeff, feel free to chime in).... Joshua |
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#29
05-08-2009, 11:58 PM
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DAMNNNNN
That is some amazing and very very extensive work. You get the gold star of the year. Great job. James G |
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#30
05-09-2009, 05:10 AM
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John- great work and thanks for some devastatingly funny pictures.
I have to say this doesn't surprise me. When I learned that the owners of the T206 museum refused to identify themselves, I smelled a rat. Why would a site developed to educate the public hide behind anonymity? There was no plausible reason. Now that this scam was revealed, it is clear why. We keep hearing stories of the FBI having to intercede in our hobby to go after these con artists, and I'm afraid this may only be the start of them. I'm certain there are many other scams out there waiting to be uncovered. |
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#31
05-09-2009, 05:19 AM
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Very insightful analysis, but (allowing for the humorous nature of the post) do we have to make fun of "chinamen" with cliches like "yankee my wankee", "ho-lee" and references to stereotyped Hollywood treatment of Asians? It just reinforces the view of the hobby as one dominated by old white guys. Whatever his offenses, Mr. Chan's ethnicity is irrelevant. I have as good a sense of humor as the next guy, but If I were of Asian descent, I would probably find parts of this thread somewhat offensive. Whether you do it for fun or investment, everyone here has a vested interest in attracting as broad a base as possible.
That being said, the mayflies are on the water and I'm going fishing. I'll be curious to see what comes of this when I get back tomorrow night. |
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#32
05-09-2009, 05:50 AM
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Nice work!
John, nice work! Hopefully the FBI will remain involved and restitution and prison time will be required.
I hope that your diligence will cause some of the other card doctors and crooks to lose some sleep. Rick
__________________
Rick McQuillan T213-2 139 down 46 to go. |
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#33
05-09-2009, 05:54 AM
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John, great work. Now if only you could also prove that it was Scott Elkins who was chasing Ned Beatty through the woods in "Deliverance" I'd really be impressed.
__________________
http://www.flickr.com/photos/calvindog/sets |
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#34
05-09-2009, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
I wondered when the "PC" crowd would chime in. Always just a matter of time. Great work John. Outstanding detective work along with a dose of humor. |
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#35
05-09-2009, 06:11 AM
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Quote:
Squeel piggy. Squeel
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#36
05-09-2009, 06:44 AM
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Very nice job.
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#37
05-09-2009, 06:45 AM
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John did amazing work and deserves a lot of credit. But Jim Rivera was the original driving force behind this scam. Though a few of us knew a few facts and had lots of suspicians, Jim actually came through with the game breaker. He tracked the source of all of the bad overprints to Chan. Jim first contacted me with the info and truthfully, the only credit I will take is that I knew who to get on the team immediately! John was my choice. He did an amazing job with the Nodgrass and now here.
John is very knowledgable, and the best at determing doctored cards. I truly thank you John. Dan |
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#40
05-09-2009, 07:46 AM
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Mr. Chan might also consider shutting down his piece of crap website. I looked at it periodically but will never do so again.
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#41
05-09-2009, 07:52 AM
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Dan is correct Jim tied Chan to the 3 of these cards that we knew of. Our FBI agent based on the info above thatI provided tied Chan finally to the site and the fake double overprint and bogus Old Mill find.
Jim and I began talking after Dan put us together. In fact Jim and I had talked mulriple times about the site and these cards. Jim and Dan had hunches and gut feelings regarding Chan the site but we really had no hard evidence. I have been curious about these from the first time I had seen one. I set out to win the REA example with hopes of proving once and for all these were legit or bogus as I thought. Luckly Jim, Dan and I rounded up on this. During our looking into this Rob Lifson and REA along with the owners of the Hart card allowed me to examine these cards in person. After reviewing the cards I had pretty solid evidence they were in fact bad enough. We also had enough evidence to send the FBI knocking. Big props go out to the Agent I dont think anyone of us Dan, Jim or I expected it to be this final outcome. Another huge thank you goes out to the owners of the Hart card who willingly helped us debunk thier own investment, and who also kept me and the FBI in the loop. I know Dan, Jim and I are happy to say they at least have been made whole. Great team effort by all. Jim on than Chan connection, Dan with the hook up and Wonka with the proof then add a dash of Rob top it with a large amount of Agent Badass and all crooks better look out there's a new A-Team on the block..LOL As for the Asian stereotypes I'm only quoting a classic 80's John Hughes film no offense needed to be taken, now if you don't mind as a Scot/Irish american I'm calling Fox about that damn Groundskeeper Willie! Also it should be noted that SGC needs a pat on the back. SGC had the guts to say they were unsure and asked for outside help before letting this card slide thru the cracks. I was very impressed with that! So thanks to Rob and SGC for sending me the Revelle. Last edited by wonkaticket; 05-09-2009 at 09:42 AM. |
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#42
05-09-2009, 07:55 AM
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Well stated Barry!!! That crap site should be shut down! I looked at it and sent many corrections that I wish I wouldn't have. Patrick was ignoring me in the end as he knew we were on to him. I think I stated that in an update to the previous thread.
What still gets me is that no charges have been filed. I would think there has to be some punishment involved here somewhere. dan |
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#43
05-09-2009, 08:01 AM
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A little andendum to John's recent post. I and I am sure we would also like to thank SGC for their cooperation and WILLINGNESS to listen to advanced collectors and then to immediately act and offer assistance.
If PSA had taken this attitude with the Nodgrass, they would have been looked upon as helpful. Instead, Joe had his grader re-examine the Nodgrass and said it was still legit, even after me, John and Rob Lifson stated it was bad. A true difference in service by the 2 leading grading companies in these particular situations. |
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#44
05-09-2009, 08:05 AM
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John- I always thought Groundskeeper Willie was an accurate depiction of all Scotsmen- you mean he's a stereotype?
 Edited as what I posted is incorrect Last edited by barrysloate; 05-09-2009 at 08:11 AM. |
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#45
05-09-2009, 08:12 AM
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jlynch1960,
My post Ho-lee crap was in no way intended to be an Asian reference. I never even thought about it, and the inference would never have occurred to me if you hadn't brought it up. I occasionally do things like Ho. Ly. Cow or Holy C-rap and things like that. Anyone that knows me or reads the boards knows that I would not do something like that. It was inadvertent. J (But while we are on the subject of stereotypes ... I am not an "old white guy"  )
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#47
05-09-2009, 09:34 AM
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Great job
Thanks to John, Jim, and Dan for the time and effort put into this investigation. The expertise and passion of the members of this Board is unsurpassed.
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#48
05-09-2009, 09:58 AM
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Ahhhhh sweet sweet irony...
http://www.t206museum.com/page/forgery.html http://www.t206museum.com/page/reprint.html Don't forget to donate. |
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#49
05-09-2009, 10:03 AM
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It does need tobe known that the T206 Museum was created to promote these and all are fake.T206 Museum needs tobe gone.
I would like to thank Dan, John, Rob-REA, the FBI and SGC. I would also like to thank a few nameless collectores that helped in my research with these bar Old Millls. John -the overprint underpants was classic. There needs tobe some humor in this. |
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#50
05-09-2009, 10:37 AM
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I think this is the ultimate irony. He was actually offering - for $25 - a certification service for T206's. Worse, he cites errors and variations as a particular area where his certification service might be valuable.
Da noive! http://www.t206museum.com/page/coa.html Joann Last edited by jmk59; 05-09-2009 at 10:38 AM. Reason: rearrange for clarity |
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