Hall of Fame voting and WWII

[topcat61]

I was quite disheartened by this years enshrinement by the Modern Era Committee this year, but it got me to thinking about older players...specifically those who had their careers cut short by WWII.

Most of my thoughts on this center around Dom DiMaggio, Gil Hodges Buddy Lewis and the most obvious, Cecil Travis.

Cecil Travis looks like he'll be up next on the Veterans Committee in 2021 and my concern is that these types of players are being rejected because of their service time. Now before anyone says "well, there are plenty of WWII veterans in"...thats true, but how many of them besides Hank Greenberg were drafted? Cecil Travis and Buddy Lewis were drafted and received 6 month deferments from their enlistment boards in 1941 and Dom DiMaggio was classified as 4-F but convinced the Navy his eyesight wasnt an issue. He had said that he wasn't about to sit out the war and I'd have to think that the voters on the Veterans Committee have an understanding of this era while making their vote?

Are these voters historians and should they be? I think that they should be and I think there should be more of an emphasis on what voters look for when voting and why they vote the way they do? Id at least like to know why a guy like Travis or DiMaggio or Hodges aren't in the Hall of Fame? Seems to me that they're being punished but I could be wrong -if I am, I'd like to know why, and why sisnt anyone out there advocating for these guys to the Hall of Fame? Thanks.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

It has been accepted among the voting writers to account for service time in their voting. There are a number of players of the era whose numbers wouldn't normally quite be up to snuff but they lost 2 or 3 years of their prime to service to their country. If you credit Travis with matching the best 3 years of his career for the years he missed his WAR is still only 45. Hodges didn't really lose much if any major league time to the war as his first year back, 1946, was spent entirely in the minors. Buddy Lewis isn't really that close even if you do credit him with 3 peak years his WAR isn't even 40. DiMaggio would be about 47 WAR if you credit him with peak years. Not really HOF worthy.

Mickey Vernon was another one who always intrigued me. While his WAR also would only come to about 45 if you give him those years back he batted .356 his first year back from the war, winning the batting title. If you give him two similar years he winds up over 2800 hits, close to 600 Doubles and 1500 RBI, which would've been much harder to overlook especially in a time when raw stats were much more important. He won two batting titles and if there was a third that would've been an interesting addition to his resume as well.

[packs]

I'm not sure we ever got to see Cecil Travis' peak though, which is why in his case I think the gap makes him a HOFer. He was only getting better when he went to fight and usually a player puts up some of their best seasons between 28 and 31.

[rats60]

Gil Hodges didn't play in the majors in 1946. In 1947 at age 23 he only played 28 games. I don't see how his numbers would be significantly by service in WWII.

Cecil Travis played 12 seasons and has 29.4 WAR. He had an OPS+ 108 as SS/3b. He did have 6.4 WAR in 1941 with OPS+ 150 (his only season over 120) so it is possible that he could have added significantly to his numbers in 1942-1945. However, in 1946-1947 at age 32-33 he put up negative WAR. His case fails in my mind because he didn't do enough after the war to get credit for what he missed. You just can't put someone in the Hof for having 1 good season.

Buddy Lewis played 11 seasons and has 26.7 WAR. He had an OPS+ of 111 as 3b/RF. He only had 1 season of 4+ WAR with an OPS+ 132. He did have an OPS+ 168 in a half season in 1945, but in 1947 at age 30 he had an OPS+ 89. He played a partial season in 1949 at age 32 and was done. There is just not enough to suggest that he would have had 3.5 monster seasons to make him look like HOFer. Again, 1 good partial season doesn't make you a Hofer.

Dom DiMaggio played 11 seasons and has 32 WAR. His OPS+ is 110 for an OF. He had 2 seasons of 4+ WAR, 1942 and 1946 with OPS + of 121 and 123. Again, nothing really there to say HOF.

I think that guys that missed time due to WWII do get over looked. Johnny Mize played 15 seasons and had an OPS+ 158 and didn't get elected by the BBWAA. One of the top 3 guys over looked by them. However, the 3 guys you mentioned just didn't do enough on the field to say they would have been Hofers if they didn't serve in the war.

[packs]

You should look up Travis' history. His career tanked after the war because he was severely injured during it and received the Bronze Star.

[topcat61]

Those Army doctors were good enough to save Travis's feet from amputation. I honestly dont understand WAR or why it would be a major importance for Hall of Fame consideration when you have 9 players on a field? I man there are a lot of Hall of Famers who played on some pretty crappy teams including the guys I mention. Much of the time those players had no choice where they played.

Anyway, Hodges came up in 1943, played 1 game and entered the Marine Corps. I still feel that Dom DiMaggio and Johnny Pesky would have gotten more consideration along with other similar players.

[conor912]

All else being equal, had the Red Sox of the 40s won at least one ring, I think Dom would be in. Hard to make a case for Rizutto being in and not Dom other than the championships, IMO.

[egri]

Originally Posted by conor912

All else being equal, had the Red Sox of the 40s won at least one ring, I think Dom would be in. Hard to make a case for Rizutto being in and not Dom other than the championships, IMO.

I agree, and it's unfortunate those teams couldn't get any pitching. In 1950, when the team scored over 1,000 runs, they had one pitcher with an ERA below 4.00 (Mel Parnell at 3.61, next lowest was Joe Dobson at 4.18).

I've always considered DiMaggio, Hodges and Travis unfairly snubbed (Lewis I'm not knowledgeable enough on to form an opinion). Hodges' candidacy was hurt indirectly by his wartime service in another way as well; while in the Marines, he took up smoking, which contributed to his fatal heart attack.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by conor912

All else being equal, had the Red Sox of the 40s won at least one ring, I think Dom would be in. Hard to make a case for Rizutto being in and not Dom other than the championships, IMO.

Rizzuto is one of the worst players in the HOF does that mean we compound the mistake?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by topcat61

Those Army doctors were good enough to save Travis's feet from amputation. I honestly dont understand WAR or why it would be a major importance for Hall of Fame consideration when you have 9 players on a field? I man there are a lot of Hall of Famers who played on some pretty crappy teams including the guys I mention. Much of the time those players had no choice where they played.

Anyway, Hodges came up in 1943, played 1 game and entered the Marine Corps. I still feel that Dom DiMaggio and Johnny Pesky would have gotten more consideration along with other similar players.

You don't understand WAR then. Playing for a crummy team has no impact.

Oh, and Rats, look two posts above you.

[topcat61]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

You don't understand WAR then. Playing for a crummy team has no impact.

Oh, and Rats, look two posts above you.

I said I didn't understand WAR. Playing for crappy teams with no run support
and batting order has something to say about certain stats.

https://bellyupsports.com/2018/08/wa...8a_08ue12UbEWY
"WAR- Why it’s a Dumb Statistic", August 2018 by Bellyupsports.com

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by packs

You should look up Travis' history. His career tanked after the war because he was severely injured during it and received the Bronze Star.

This. Plus I have always thought it was extraordinarily unfair to penalize a player for serving his country for four years when called in the first place. Looking at Travis post WWII career and basing a decision on his numbers then is similarly unfair. He suffered severe frostbite during the Battle of the Bulge and damn near lost his feet. That he is not going to play at the same level after suffering what should have been a career ending injury is kind of a duh thing. Dinging him for that is somewhat akin to saying Gale Sayers wasn't a HOFer because he didn't play long enough after both of his knee injuries, but substantially worse IMO. At least Sayers' injuries occurred in a game he chose to play. Travis' injuries occurred due to a situation that our country required him to be in. I personally think that is a vastly different situation, particularly when he was clearly on a HOF track when called.

In my estimation, Travis is by far the most striking example of a career wholly derailed by something completely out of his control and completely unrelated to baseball. I realize he won't get in, ever. But he is absolutely due for far more credit than he has ever been given. The fact that he never gets it is too bad.

[mr2686]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

This. Plus I have always thought it was extraordinarily unfair to penalize a player for serving his country for four years when called in the first place. Looking at Travis post WWII career and basing a decision on his numbers then is similarly unfair. He suffered severe frostbite during the Battle of the Bulge and damn near lost his feet. That he is not going to play at the same level after suffering what should have been a career ending injury is kind of a duh thing. Dinging him for that is somewhat akin to saying Gale Sayers wasn't a HOFer because he didn't play long enough after both of his knee injuries, but substantially worse IMO. At least Sayers' injuries occurred in a game he chose to play. Travis' injuries occurred due to a situation that our country required him to be in. I personally think that is a vastly different situation, particularly when he was clearly on a HOF track when called.

In my estimation, Travis is by far the most striking example of a career wholly derailed by something completely out of his control and completely unrelated to baseball. I realize he won't get in, ever. But he is absolutely due for far more credit than he has ever been given. The fact that he never gets it is too bad.

I like Travis, and wouldn't have a problem with him in the Hall, but Warren Spahn was also in the battle of the Bulge, sustained injuries to his feet and was shell shocked, and went on to have a hall of fame career.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by mr2686

I like Travis, and wouldn't have a problem with him in the Hall, but Warren Spahn was also in the battle of the Bulge, sustained injuries to his feet and was shell shocked, and went on to have a hall of fame career.

He was wounded in a foot by shrapnel while helping defend Ludendorff Bridge. Not minimizing it, but that is substantially different than almost losing both feet to frostbite IMO.

Travis was one of the "battling bastards of Bastogne." Completely surrounded, outmanned, outflanked, out of food and water, sleeping in his foxhole in the freezing temperatures. I have nothing but respect for him.

[topcat61]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

This. Plus I have always thought it was extraordinarily unfair to penalize a player for serving his country for four years when called in the first place. Looking at Travis post WWII career and basing a decision on his numbers then is similarly unfair. He suffered severe frostbite during the Battle of the Bulge and damn near lost his feet. That he is not going to play at the same level after suffering what should have been a career ending injury is kind of a duh thing. Dinging him for that is somewhat akin to saying Gale Sayers wasn't a HOFer because he didn't play long enough after both of his knee injuries, but substantially worse IMO. At least Sayers' injuries occurred in a game he chose to play. Travis' injuries occurred due to a situation that our country required him to be in. I personally think that is a vastly different situation, particularly when he was clearly on a HOF track when called.

In my estimation, Travis is by far the most striking example of a career wholly derailed by something completely out of his control and completely unrelated to baseball. I realize he won't get in, ever. But he is absolutely due for far more credit than he has ever been given. The fact that he never gets it is too bad.

Very well said. I do think at some point he'll get in, but it'll take voters with enough understanding of everything you''ve just stated.

[Exhibitman]

What Kenny said. Travis was a speedster whose game was mobility and disruption; damage his feet and it is over, as was the case. He paid the price and would make a reasonable addition to the Hall. At least I'd have no issues with it, which is great because I know how important my views are to the HOF committee.