C46 Imperial Tobacco - Question

[ChrisStufflestreet]

I usually point out when something hits my blog that might interest folks here...but I'm going to do this a little bit differently today.

Today's blog entry (link below) is an answer to a question posed to me through my website:

A "non-computerized" elderly friend has an early card 1 1/2" x 2 5/8" depicting "Wells" with "Jersey City" on his shirt---a history of this player is on the back, some of which is missing because the card was poorly removed from a scrap book and "Baseball Series No. 56" along the bottom. I can find nothing about this series but suspect it is pre-WW I. It is not among the sets you show that I checked up to the 1930's nor is a Wells listed. Are you aware of this set of cards?---any help you can give would be appreciated.

As many here might guess fairly easily, the card in question is a C46. While I give a basic explanation in my answer along with the picture of a Wells card and a link to Old Cardboard's set description, I'm thinking it may be time to add some pre-WW1 sets to my web page as there are some that are sorely missing (No OJ, no Obaks, no A&G). I think C46 should be added as the only major pre-WW1 Canadian baseball set.

As a way of generating hobby discussion, anybody here have any info about the set? Any rarities? Back variations? Any reason there wasn't an ad for the cigarette brand on the back? Interesting players aside from the Hall of Famers (as well as Chick Gandil and Jack Dunn)? I know that some of the International League players in C46 were also in T206 but some also never made the majors. If you have anything to share with the group, please post it here.

[jb217676]

The C46 Chick Gandil sells for big dollars. I was bidding on a PSA 3 Gandil on ebay a couple of months ago that ended up selling for almost $500.00!

[kcohen]

Other HOFers in the set are Joe McGinnity and Joe Kelley. Another notable player is Luther "Dummy" Taylor.

[Jacklitsch]

The O'Hara No. 1 card is tough in nice condition. I just picked up a PSA 6 off ebay last month and am thrilled.

Nice set, one of my favs.

[tedzan]

Let's not forget Demmitt and O'Hara of "T206 fame"......







TED Z

[tedzan]

I minds are in sync....O'Hara !

I don't know if that's good or bad ?


TED Z

[Jacklitsch]

While we're at it a little more show and tell. Here are the two Hall of Famers:

[Bosox Blair]

If you want some eye candy, here is the link to the C46 set that REA just sold for $12,000 + juice...this has to be the greatest set of these cards anywhere. The condition is astounding: http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/...x?itemid=13326

Cheers,
Blair

[DICKTOWLE]

The group that responded to you are spot on, in fact there was a trunk on ebay that had around 25 glued inside the truck to the wood. I received many calls from people asking me if I could remove these from the trunk. I can, but no call backs.

[rdixon1208]

Some time ago someone posted asking if anyone could verify/prove that this set was indeed produced by Imperial Tobacco. No one replied and the thread died. I've wondered about that ever since.

Do you think any of those SUPER high grade C46's in those PSA holders are altered. I always wonder about those cards that are 100+yrs old that are pack fresh

[Sixtofan]

I really enjoyed completing this set. The Hoy was tough and there was another card that I hard a hard time finding (can't remember who it was but it wasn't one of the HOFers). Overall, some of them just didn't come up for sale that often probably as they aren't that popular. I wonder how many there are?

[marcdelpercio]

I was the winning bidder on the trunk lid on eBay. I was very happy with the final price. I have often felt that this set was undervalued as it is quite attractive and features a number of big leaguers, as well as being the only major pre-war Canadian release. I believe the cards are at least as scarce if not more so than the mainstream US minor league releases of the time.

I have also wondered about the evidence that this was an Imperial Tobacco release as it is stylistically entirely different from the Imperial Tobacco hockey and lacrosse issues of that era. Beautiful set nonetheless.

[marcdelpercio]

Here's a pic of the trunk.

[tbob]

Marc- nice pickup. Do you have a link to this auction?
tbob

[Hot Springs Bathers]

Marc- Do you ever wonder what cards were on those glue spots?

[marcdelpercio]

Thanks tbob,
I was really happy to win this piece at the price it sold for. Here is a link to the auction:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=170475364955

Actually, the other cards that have been removed from the trunk are included with the lot. Somebody had apparently attempted to begin removing them. Thankfully they stopped before too much damage was done. As a general note, simply grabbing a card and ripping it from a wooden trunk is not the most effective method

[uffda51]

[ChrisStufflestreet]

Thanks for the great info, guys. Today, I added a page to my website with a description and checklist for C46.

Here's the link for anybody who'd like to see the finished product.

However, I'll copy the stuff I wrote about the set here:

In Jefferson Burdick's American Card Catalog, the letter "C" was designated for Canadian tobacco issues, most of which were issued prior to World War One. Most of the sets included featured hockey players and general subjects, but C46 was the only major set of baseball players. The set was one of several of the era to feature minor league players. The players included in the set were in the International League, which -- as its name implies -- had teams in both the United States and Canada. Despite being a Canadian-issued set, only two of the league's eight teams were located north of the border. Teams in the league were located in Montreal and Toronto, Canada and Buffalo, Newark, Baltimore, Jersey City, Providence and Rochester. While about three-quarters of the players would make major league clubs, many are better known to collectors by virtue of appearing in the T206 and T205 sets as well.

Measuring 1 1/2" by 2 5/8" like most tobacco issues of the day, C46 cards are a little more elaborately designed than better-known sets. Resembling a plaque, the black-and-white player picture is displayed in a oval shape framed by a wooden slab complete with graphic "edges." The photo has a baseball bat designed to look as if it runs diagonally beneath the photo, with a fielder's glove at the top right and a baseball to the lower right. Below the photo is an oval-shaped "nameplate" with his last name.

Card backs are very basic compared to other tobacco issues. The player's last name appears at the top, followed by a short write-up of his accomplishments. At the very bottom of the card are the words "Baseball Stars" and the card number. One of the biggest differences from almost every other tobacco card set is the lack of any advertising for the company that issued them; this lack of identity not only gives newer collectors trouble trying to figure out what they are but also has caused some collectors to ask whether they were actually issued by Imperial Tobacco.

There are ninety cards in the set. While none of the cards is all that scarce relative to other cards in the set, there are some factors that affect completion. First, two of the players ("Iron Joe" McGinnity and Joe Kelley) are Hall of Famers. Chick Gandil would eventually become involved in the 1919 Black Sox scandal and is widely collected because of that. Other notables include Luther "Dummy" Taylor, who is often pointed out as a player whose deafness led to the practice of umpires using hand signals and Jack Dunn, who was instrumental in bringing Babe Ruth to Baltimore as a rookie a couple years later. William O'Hara and Ray Demmitt are remembered for their having difficult T206 cards. In addition to competition from specialty collectors, there is a combination that makes a C46 set a little more difficult than expected: between the age of these cards, their foreign origin and the fact that some don't often identify them correctly due to the lack of a back advertisement, they sometimes take time to show up in the marketplace. Working on the set takes a little bit of patience.

You'll notice there's no real talk about what cards are worth. That's because I don't bother to keep up with them. The site is meant to pass along information about the set, but there are plenty of great sites out there that can give ideas of value.

If I've goofed around and gotten something wrong, just let me know and I'll get the correction made.

[ethicsprof]

great work,chris and
love the trunk, Marc.

best,
barry

[Bosox Blair]

Originally Posted by ChrisStufflestreet

Thanks for the great info, guys. Today, I added a page to my website with a description and checklist for C46.

Hi Chris,

A few comments. Regarding Joe Kelley, it is probably worth noting that his card, #27, incorrectly spells his name as "Kelly". Joe Kelley is pictured in street clothes. There is sometimes confusion among collectors because Jack Kelley (card #15), a player from Newark, is also featured in the set. Jack Kelley is in his Newark uniform.

The Standard Catalogue says that despite the C46 cards referring to the International League, the teams are actually from the Eastern League.

And finally, in terms of your description of C-cards, if one is being picky, one might say there are actually more Lacrosse subjects than Hockey subjects in the C-card designation - the Hockey sets are quite a bit smaller than the Lacrosse sets (but there was a great deal of crossover and many of these athletes played both sports).

Cheers,
Blair

[cdn_collector]

>The Standard Catalogue says that despite the C46 cards referring to the
>International League, the teams are actually from the Eastern League.

I may be acting too picky here, but the cards refer to the International League because in 1912 the Eastern League essentially became the International League. I say essentially, because I don't know if it was strictly a name change or if other "things" about the league(s) changed as well.

Regards,

Richard.

[ChrisStufflestreet]

Blair, thanks for the info. My research (though not entirely thorough) didn't uncover many lacrosse players so I hadn't considered that. However, as a guy from a small town close to lacrosse powerhouse Syracuse (and who lived 2 blocks from the Powell family that saw a few good college lacrosse players in the 1990s), I should be ashamed to say that.

And I'll check into the specifics of the International League. If the league's name was changed in 1912, it at least deserves a mention.

[Bosox Blair]

Originally Posted by ChrisStufflestreet

Blair, thanks for the info. My research (though not entirely thorough) didn't uncover many lacrosse players so I hadn't considered that. However, as a guy from a small town close to lacrosse powerhouse Syracuse (and who lived 2 blocks from the Powell family that saw a few good college lacrosse players in the 1990s), I should be ashamed to say that.

Hi Chris,

In terms of Imperial Tobacco the hockey cards are C56 (36 cards plus a rare 37th - Newsy Lalonde), C55 (45 cards), and C57 (50 cards). There is also the later and unrelated C144 1924-25 Champ's Cigarettes set of 60 cards.

Imperial Tobacco's Lacrosse sets were C60 (98 cards), C59 (100 cards) and C61 (50 cards).

Cheers,
Blair