Scrap Book soaking disaster

[mybuddyinc]

Well, I took a gamble on this scrap book in Goodwin's* last auction:

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Big risk -------> big reward


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These bad boys were glued with some sort of heavy white rubber cement. Yes, Dick T. gave it a shot, with no success. Then I tried a 24 hour water soak, even bring up to boiling point. Nothing. Tried to Boil in oil two cards, ended up with two chicken-fried cards. Even an over night soak of one card in Bestine did nothing. So, sucked it up and peeled away. The Am. Beauty's kill me (especially 460 Chase/trophy). At least T205 Matty wasn't a Cycle, or you would have to contact me at the Vroom wing of Trenton Psychiatric Hospital.

* I hold no grudge with Goodwin, they didn't know. If the consignor knew, who knows. Can't imagine why anyone would permanently adhere so many nice cards. Maybe this was done back when these cards didn't have the value they have today.

[ls7plus]

I'm sure it was done decades and decades ago, when they were just cards, items with no particular value. My recently acquired '39 Goudey R303A Ted Williams had obviously been glued to a scrapbook, and when someone tried to pull it loose, some minor back damage ensued. Still a good looking card, however, with no apparent creases.

Sorry to hear it worked out so badly in your case.

Regards,

Larry

[Econteachert205]

Scott, sorry that's a terrible break.

[ullmandds]

bummer!

[drcy]

That's what I'd half expect when soaking an album.

[1880nonsports]

hen.ry Mo/ses

I would venture that EVERYONE INVOLVED IN HAVING THE ALBUM KNEW THEY WOULDN'T SOAK WELL. P.E.R.I.O.D.!

[ullmandds]

Welllllllll...atleast you still have some of the most beautiful and cherished cards in the hobby.

I was quoting the goodwin description!

[Econteachert205]

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ght=Scrap+book



Knew I'd seen it before


Agree with Pete. Still some real nice fronts.

[Bocabirdman]

I would guess, given the creases throughout the pile and comparing them to the scans of the pages, that there were previous attempts to remove them. I cannot believe that anyone would have cards that creased up and decide to scrapbook them.......

[Cmount76]

+1

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Welllllllll...atleast you still have some of the most beautiful and cherished cards in the hobby.

[mybuddyinc]

Originally Posted by Econteachert205

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ght=Scrap+book



Knew I'd seen it before


Agree with Pete. Still some real nice fronts.

Very interesting

_____________________________

well I'm putting my name in my post
hen.ry Mo/ses

I would venture that EVERYONE INVOLVED IN HAVING THE ALBUM KNEW THEY WOULDN'T SOAK WELL. P.E.R.I.O.D.!

______________________________


Sadly, I'm beginning to feel the same.

[brob28]

Originally Posted by Econteachert205

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ght=Scrap+book



Knew I'd seen it before


Agree with Pete. Still some real nice fronts.

Hmmm - not so good - sorry to hear about your results Scott.

[Runscott]

We've had quite a few collectors post here that they would NEVER attempt to soak cards. Given that consignors to auction houses often are even less knowledgeable than we are about such things, it's quite a leap to assume that the consignor knew that the cards would not soak off the pages.

It's reasonable to assume that the original owner back in the day simply chose a glue that wouldn't soak - does anyone here really think that someone in 1912 would intentionally seek out a type of glue for their scrapbook that either was or was not water-soluble? They chose glue to make their cards stick to the pages, not thinking about collectors 100 years in the future. If they abused their cards by flipping, trading or any other method, they could easily be creased or worn at the time they were glued in.

Conspiracy theories work much better for today's modern money-oriented people than for 1912's simpler card collectors who weren't worried about investment value of every single item they came across.

[1880nonsports]

or auction house that handled the original book and likely any pages would have known whether the cards would soak - either having tried it or knowing second hand. PERIOD. A consignor who is likely unfamiliar with such ephemera is another thing.
As to when someone might have glued such cards onto the pages is anyone's guess - a leap of faith given the limited information. I would suggest it was likely NOT close to the time they were issued but more likely a second or third hand accumulation of cards. Doubtful it was done recently in an attempt to create a deception. Of course the devil must be given his due - I've seen much worse.
As for the OP taking his shot - most here that have done any volume of buying/selling have taken shots only to be disappointed at times. Count me among them on one or two similar transactions. I have also come out on the positive side of a few including a Goodwin Champions album. I empathize (not that it does much for the OP) - just want to suggest he's not alone. The more EDUCATED shots a knowledgeable person takes - the greater the likelihood of success - at least that's the proverbial carrot.
The "cards" still represent a nice selection depending on one's level of expectation. Life usually gives you the test and then the lesson. As long as we can learn from what we've done - that's the rub...............

[Enfuego]

I feel your frustrations

[Jeffrompa]

I know some here are very good at soaking but I have had similar results . Maybe there is a better solution/liquid to soak in .

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by 1880nonsports

PERIOD.

Well, I guess that ends the conversation. Remind me not to use that technique.

[1880nonsports]

I accept I may have chosen a poor manner to express what is obviously my opinion and conjecture. I will also agree that sometimes what goes on in life defies description. Just difficult to believe that people who deal in an environment where such items and similar are bought and sold - wouldn't have done some sort of due diligence with regard to extraction - as it's only sell the sizzle and not the steak AFTER it's been determined the cards can't be removed without damage. They would be worth significantly more if they could be rescued.............

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by 1880nonsports

I accept I may have chosen a poor manner to express what is obviously my opinion and conjecture. I will also agree that sometimes what goes on in life defies description. Just difficult to believe that people who deal in an environment where such items and similar are bought and sold - wouldn't have done some sort of due diligence with regard to extraction - as it's only sell the sizzle and not the steak AFTER it's been determined the cards can't be removed without damage. They would be worth significantly more if they could be rescued.............

I understand, I just don't agree with your assessment. Here at Net54 we tend to assume that if someone roles the dice with an item and loses, someone maliciously attempted to screw them. On the other hand, if they role the dice and win, the seller was ignorant. Why can't a seller simply be ignorant in both situations?

[glchen]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I understand, I just don't agree with your assessment. Here at Net54 we tend to assume that if someone roles the dice with an item and loses, someone maliciously attempted to screw them. On the other hand, if they role the dice and win, the seller was ignorant. Why can't a seller simply be ignorant in both situations?

Scott, I think you may have missed the information in post #8 where a previous owner of the scrapbook pages knew that the cards were glued via cement to the pages, and his attempts at removal resulted in the cards being skinned.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by glchen

Scott, I think you may have missed the information in post #8 where a previous owner of the scrapbook pages knew that the cards were glued via cement to the pages, and his attempts at removal resulted in the cards being skinned.

Yes, I missed that - thanks.

We could guess who omitted the 'non-removable cement' information, but it would only be a guess. I still disagree that AH's always know their consigned items as well as we feel they should. I've bought upside-down back T206's included in lots and I've bought rare photographs that weren't even included in the auction lot description. Sometimes AH's are just taking what they are given and moving it - especially if it doesn't appear to have much value.

On the other hand, they do lie sometimes as well

[1880nonsports]

encounter a contrary opinion, try and clarify our position, listen to the response, and then agree to disagree. I hope that's where we are. I understand that such situations exist where things just pass through hands without diligence - I just don't think that's the case here. The question of ethical responsibility for disclosure should someone along the chain have known they wouldn't soak is altogether another matter. Most people do the right thing or they don't. It is a question I would have asked - and have on a few FeeBay listings over the years.
It's like a guy who primarily sells graded cards. If they have an expensive card listed ungraded - it raises a flag. May be nothing wrong but just seems a little off. If a big auction house had a scrapbook with valuable cards in it - and they were being offered that way without any mention EITHER WAY as to soakable or not - it raises a flag. May be nothing wrong but just seems a little off. I agree this is just MY take and opinion.
What was lost in my response was the desire to assuage the OP's despair or at least let them know they weren't alone in having gambled and lost and that they should take it just as that whether or not they ever try again. It's a chat board after all and I am just chatting........

[drcy]

The person who posted them on this board seemed to say that, while he wasn't able to remove the glue in h is one attempt, perhaps someone on this board could. I've never soaked album pages and don't know what solvents dissolve this or that glue, so I might have assumed some resident soaking expert could remove them.

I didn't read that he thought they couldn't removed undamaged, but that perhaps someone else could do it and wanted to give it a try. So I don't know that it's a case that the consignor knew they couldn't be removed unnamaged-- and perhaps there there is a solvent out there that would work.

[chipperhank44]

Regardless of what a consignor tells an auction house, does anyone really expect the AH to opine on whether cards can be safely removed from a scrapbook?

Asking an auction house to look into the future, determine what a purchaser will do with their cards, and predict the outcome.....not really in the AH's scope IMO.

[drcy]

If asked, as a seller I'd say "Do what you want to the album pages, they're yours, but don't come back to me for a refund if it doesn't work out. I sold them as cards glued to album pages."

Would I disclose if I was sure they couldn't be removed without damaging the cards? Yes. But, as I said in earlier post, I'm no soaking or glue solvent expert and, unless they were laminated to the pages, I wouldn't be knowledgeable enough on that subject to know they couldn't be removed. I would also be selling with the assumption that some, and perhaps all, bidders intend to keep the album pages as are. I don't sell an old family photo album or Victorian scrap book with the assumption that the buyer is going to take it apart. In fact, I know that many collectors desire the intact albums and would consider removing the pages, photos or scraps akin to cutting out pages of a Spalding album or book. The very decision to remove items from album pages is not only not the seller's responsibility, it is not universal. The idea that any buyer who gets an album or page of cards is going to try to remove the cards is not true-- and, thus, the seller having responsibility for buyers who try to is a stretch. I'm talking about a seller who is just selling an album as an album or a page of cards as a page of cards, not one who promotes the cards as easily removable and resalable as singles.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by chipperhank44

Regardless of what a consignor tells an auction house, does anyone really expect the AH to opine on whether cards can be safely removed from a scrapbook?

Asking an auction house to look into the future, determine what a purchaser will do with their cards, and predict the outcome.....not really in the AH's scope IMO.

If the AH thought they could be safely removed;i.e-the consignor told them that he had soaked a few off successfully, I guarantee you the AH would put that in their description.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by 1880nonsports

encounter a contrary opinion, try and clarify our position, listen to the response, and then agree to disagree. I hope that's where we are. I understand that such situations exist where things just pass through hands without diligence - I just don't think that's the case here. The question of ethical responsibility for disclosure should someone along the chain have known they wouldn't soak is altogether another matter. Most people do the right thing or they don't. It is a question I would have asked - and have on a few FeeBay listings over the years.
It's like a guy who primarily sells graded cards. If they have an expensive card listed ungraded - it raises a flag. May be nothing wrong but just seems a little off. If a big auction house had a scrapbook with valuable cards in it - and they were being offered that way without any mention EITHER WAY as to soakable or not - it raises a flag. May be nothing wrong but just seems a little off. I agree this is just MY take and opinion.
What was lost in my response was the desire to assuage the OP's despair or at least let them know they weren't alone in having gambled and lost and that they should take it just as that whether or not they ever try again. It's a chat board after all and I am just chatting........

After having read the thread I missed, yes, something seems off. I disagree with a great deal of what I read in discussion forums - much more than what I encounter in real-life discussions. So it's no big deal - you are in the majority.

[vintagesportscollector]

Originally Posted by Runscott

If the AH thought they could be safely removed;i.e-the consignor told them that he had soaked a few off successfully, I guarantee you the AH would put that in their description.

+1. I agree not in the AHs scope to opinion on whether cards can be soaked off – BUT People in this hobby act with deception by omission, far too often. Include what fits your objective and omit what doesn’t. In most cases they have perfectly plausible deniability - such as having any inkling if a card would soak off or not.

[drcy]

I would say an AH is not responsible to know whether or not items are removable-- and some would say it would be unethical for an auction house to be testing if items are soakable and trying to remove cards from albums--, but, if they know for a fact the cards are not removable, they should disclose that.

I remember years back an auctioneer was auctioning a glass ashtray that had a 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle and a couple of pins glued to the bottom (you viewed Mickey's face through the ashtray). The seller clearly noted that there he was certain there was no way to remove the card and pins and that the winner were purchasing a permanently sealed single item.

[EvilKing00]

Ugh thats too bad but u do have some nice fronts.

2 chicken-fried cards thats funny though

[chaddurbin]

i doubt the OP would've bought the lot if he saw the n54 f/s thread, and probably wouldn't have sent in to DT to try his chemical sorcery.

[brewing]

Sorry about this Scott. All I can offer is my condolences and a drink of your choice.

[Runscott]

As an aside, glue back in that era was either water-soluble or not, but even the water-soluble stuff is sometimes so difficult to remove that it isn't worth it (perhaps there was something more than water in some mixtures).

But the non-water soluble glue is impossible - I've never seen cards come off cleanly when removed by collectors. Kudos to Scott for his innovative attempts - I'm guessing one of his remote ancestors collected the data to teach us about various poisonous plants, having fortunately reproduced earlier.

[mybuddyinc]

Originally Posted by EvilKing00

2 chicken-fried cards thats funny though

Thanks, glad someone got it !!! *

Really posted out of frustration and need for pity. And I thank all for condolences. Especially Mr. Moses: I have read many of his posts on the non-sport side, and find his writing style so insightful, innovated, and unique, it verges on an art form.

To all who have contacted me about cards, still do not know what I am going to do with them. I believe I have replied to all, if not I apologize.

* Surprised no one bit on the Vroom building comment. I doubt it's still there, but it used to be a locked wing for the criminally insane.

[1880nonsports]

(Mom is that you?)

[joeadcock]

Scott

Sorry. I myself have had a lot of things not work out in the card world and outside.
As time goes on, easier to forget.