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  #1201  
Old 01-30-2021, 08:48 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Posts: 8,655
Default T206 REFERENCE..... "You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave"

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

.
.... Sweet Caporal ...... Sovereign ......... Piedmont___The "House" that created these Tobacco cards___American Beauty ... Sovereign ...….... UZIT


This thread will provide references to major contributions posted on Net54 these past 14 years that have formed a better understanding of "The Monster" [as Bill Heitman
so aptly coined his T206 book (circa 1980)].

Let's start with the 2005-2006 publication of Scot Reader's Inside T206
An excellent, very informative, and well written book that inspired many of us Net54ers to post our experiences and theory's regarding the complexities of the T206 series.

One of the early and very significant T206 threads was posted in June 2006 by Barry Arnold, titled T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection ?
This thread sparked lots of brainstorming among Net54ers regarding T206's. It included surveys; and, various aspects of the T206 series were explored.....resulting in 363
meaningful posts. Furthermore, between many of us Net54ers, this thread was...."the beginning of a beautiful friendship" (to quote Humphrey Bogart in Casablanca).

In the Summer of 2006, Bill Brown posted his T206 Super-Set (excel) spreadsheet. Bill received 1000's of inputs from Net54ers for this spreadsheet. It was a great start
in the pursuit of what a T206 "master" set would be comprised of....T206 Super-Set

Sept 2007, I started a thread titled Joe Doyle NAT'L and it's 11 "cousins"....SURVEY to explore certain PIEDMONT 350 cards that I considered as rare as the Joe Doyle
"error" card. I eventually referred to these particular T206's as the Elite 11


Subsequent posts in this thread will expand on theory's regarding the structure of the T206 series and the front/back permutations that have resulted. A fair number of the
theory's presented on Net54 (since 2006) have withstood the test of time. Providing accurate lists of which front/back combos were printed. And, which ones are No-Prints.

So, stay tuned......many more T206 "oldies but goodies" References and Reflections will be posted here.


And, feel free to contribute any meaningful T206 stories, or experiences collecting T206's that you have.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________________________

INDEX

Set your user settings to display 50 posts per Page. Then click on the topic of interest, then scan page for Post # noted.

Post #1......Introduction....plus Scot Reader's " Inside T206 " book, and 3 significant T206 threads (circa..2006) for starters.

Post #2......The beginning of the six "Super-Prints"

Post #4......SOVEREIGN phantom "350/460" series (apple green cards)

Post #5......350/460 series backs identified

Post #8......350/460 series mutually-exclusive cards

Post #22.....T206 Plank mystery

Post #25.....T206 DRUM's...."A-B-C-D" connection

Post #26.....A-B-C-D connection expanded

Post #28.....1910 COUPON (T213-1) sub-set

Post #30.....Ty Cobb / Ty Cobb back

Post #31.....T206 Checklists....plus 1910 COUPON, T215-1 and Ty Cobb/Ty Cobb

Posts #33 & 34.....Richard Russell's unique T206 collection

Posts #35 - 36 & 38.....Exclusive 12 group (460-only series)

Post #39.....AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 No Frame subjects = DRUM subjects

Posts #44 & 48.....Collecting T206 sets....tell us your story's

Post #54.....T206 all-PIEDMONT set

Post #65......SOVEREIGN set story

Post #69......SWEET CAPORAL, Factory #30 set story

Posts #72 & 74......AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 adventure

Posts #76 - 77......T206 cards RE-FRONTED (or re-backed)....FAKE's !

Post #93.....T206 "Proofs"

Post #96.....UZIT checklist

Post #97.....Spring of 1911....T206 era ends....the start of the "Golden era" begins

Post #98.....ATC Factory's associated with the White-Bordered cards (1909 - 1911)

Posts #101 & 106.....BROAD LEAF 460 checklist

Post #107.....Hobby greats....Frank Nagy and Bill Heitman

Post #108.....CAROLINA BRIGHTS checklist

Post #124.....PIEDMONT 460, Factory #42 checklist

Posts #128 - 131.....Why are Connie Mack, Jack Coombs, Shoeless Joe Jackson, Smoky Joe Wood missing in the T206 set ?

Posts #134 & 138.....Timeline of the T206 POLAR BEAR cards

Post #144.....T206 OLD MILL (Major League series) cards

Post #146..... T206 OLD MILL Southern League cards

Post #161.....Southern League cards (continued)

Post #162.....T206 Southern Leaguers Brown OLD MILL cards

Post #171.....The mysterious T206 brown LENOX cards

Post #181.....SWEET CAPORAL 460, Factory #30 backs (w/o Factory #42 overprint)

Post #190.....El Principe de Gales T206 cards

Post #196.....SWEET CAPORAL 350-460, Factory #42 overprint cards

Post #198.....Regional source of the Elite 11 cards

Posts #201 >> 227.....Show-n-tell us of your favorite T206's

Posts #231 >> 248.....Show-n-tell us of your T206 Run(s)

Posts #263 >> 276.....T206 color printing errors......let's see some of these interesting T206's

Posts #282 >> 294.....The mysterious nature of the Red HINDU cards

Posts #302 >> 316.....Show-n-tell us of your MAGIE cards

Posts #328 >> 333.....T206 150-only subjects......

Posts #334 >> 346.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Posts #353 >> 358.....PIEDMONT set structure & checklist

Posts #360 >> 366.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Post #368.....Reminiscing about T206's in 2005

Post #378.....Remembering Jantz Morey

Posts #379 >> 385.....T206 TRIVIA QUIZ....1st correct answer wins T206

Posts #386 >> 402.....T206 printed sheet structure

Posts #405 >> 440.....Show us your BROAD LEAF 350 cards

Posts #441 >> 450.....Comparable printing patterns of the T206's and T205's

Posts #453 >> 467.....Guess the price of a near complete T206 set

Posts #469 >> 470.....Guess the selling price of a COMPLETE SOVEREIGN set

Posts #471 >> 474.....Guess selling price of a near complete PIEDMONT set

Posts #476 >> 479.....Guess selling price of a complete SWEET CAP, F#30 set

Posts #481 >> 515.....Show-n-Tell us of your T206 "finds"

Posts #516 >> 536....."Bang the DRUM Slowly" while showing us your DRUM cards

Posts #537 >> 551.....Guess how many Demmitt & O'Hara St Louis cards exist ?

Posts #553 >> 554.....FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams

Posts #561 >> 570.....FYI: T206 rosters of the 16 Major League teams

Posts #571 >> 572.....FYI: 350 Series Minor Leaguer's checklist and trivia

Posts #573 >> 573.....T206 Southern League cards illustrated

Posts #574 >> 579.....T206 "Monster" obsession ? ....Check-out this one !

Posts #580 >> 597.....Do the T215-1 cards belong in the T206 set ?

Posts #598 >> 600.....Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards ?

Posts #601 >> 603.....Any guesses why no CHESTERFIELD or LUCKY STRIKE T-cards ?

Posts #605 >> 621.....the TOLSTOI story

Posts #622 >> 623.....Meet me at Philly, we can Talk T206's

Posts #624 >> 635.....CYCLE 460 checklist

Posts #636 >> 650.....The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement

Posts #651 >> 664.....The "MONSTER" Master Set achievement

Posts #665 >> 669.....UPGRADING T206 cards

Posts #671 >> 674.....And then, there are times to down-grade your T206's

Posts #675 >> 692.....Black LENOX checklist

Posts #693 >> 697.....Check-out Jamie B's multi-brand T206 card

Posts #698 >> 700.....Revisting the mysterious Ty Cobb card with TY COBB back

Posts #701 >> 713.....Reprising the Ty Cobb / TY COBB card debate

Posts #714 >> 726.....CYCLE 350 checklist..... where have all the CYCLE 350 cards gone ?

Posts #727 >> 741.....the enigmatic Lajoie (with bat)..... Post your inputs and/or cards

Posts #742 >> 750.....The elusive ELITE 11....show them, if you have them

Posts #751 >> 760.....The elusive ELITE 11....show them, if you have them

Posts #761 >> 800.....How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards

Posts #801 >> 821.....How do you collect T206's: Graded or Ungraded ?...show us your cards

Posts #824 >> 832.....Possible sources of the T206 Wagner cards

Posts #833 >> 850.....T206 BLANK-BACKS...if you have them, post them here

Posts #851 >> 853.....T206 BLANK-BACKS...if you have them, post them here

Posts #854 >> 883.....What backs are your favorite(s), and do you collect runs of them ?

Posts #884 >> 900.....Group of 36 subjects (350 Series) that are CB, EPDG, OM, PB NO-PRINTS

Posts #901 >> 916.....Group of 36 subjects (350 Series) that are CB, EPDG, OM, PB NO-PRINTS

Posts #917 >> 944.....MISSION (99%) ACCOMPLISHED American Beauty 460 run. Show your favorite run

Posts #945 >> 950.....Red Ink "Twins" > HINDU and SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #42 cards

Posts #951 >> 961.....Red Ink "Twins" > HINDU and SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #42 cards

Posts #962 >> 984.....Possible sources of the T206 Wagner cards (Re-visited)

Posts #985 >> 1000....... the "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card

Posts #1001 >> 1002..... the "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card

Posts #1004 >> 1034.....Reminiscing about your 1st BB card Show where you acquired T206's

Posts #1035 >> 1050.....Show T206's with same name on top or different player's name on top

Posts #1051 >> 1066.....Show T206's with same name on top or different player's name on top

Posts #1068 >> 1070.....Imagine the T206 guys come alive, great read about the 1904 season

Posts #1071 >> 1086....."pet peeves" regarding certain T206's...and tell us of your's ?

Posts #1087 >> 1100.....Unique Antique CAR(ds).....Show us your "One of a Kind" T206(s)

Posts #1101 >> 1150.....Unique Antique CAR(ds).....Show us your "One of a Kind" T206(s)

Posts #1151 >> 1160.....Unique Antique CAR(ds).....Show us your "One of a Kind" T206(s)

Posts #1161 >> 1193.....ATC's "signature" white-border T-card. Post your favorite Red Cobb

Posts #1194 >> 1198.....Questionable action poses on certain T206's. Show us a questionable pose

Posts #1199 >> 1200....."You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave"

Posts #1201 >> 1207....."You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave"

Posts #1208 >> 1213.....Revisiting the 150-only Series.....and, let's see your cards

Posts #1214 >> 1225.....The "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card survey (Updated)

Posts #1226 >> 1234.....The "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card and related subjects


In this thread, I've tried to present some very complex aspects of the Series structure of the T206 set in a style which is understandable to most of the T206 collectors.
However, if not clear, don't be shy about asking questions. Post your questions on this thread. Or, email me directly with your questions.... tedzan11@comcast.net
In either event, I will gladly do my best to provide you clear and meaningful answer(s).


TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

Last edited by tedzan; 03-05-2021 at 05:13 PM. Reason: Updated INDEX.
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  #1202  
Old 01-31-2021, 03:57 PM
frankrizzo29 frankrizzo29 is offline
Frank Bev.ilac.qua
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Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Ohio
Posts: 102
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Since there haven't been any responses to this new topic which I started this time last nite, here's a friendly bump to the top and we'll see what develops.

In 1980, when Bill Heitman published his famous book, little did I know as I read it, I was metaphorically entering the "Hotel California".

I have checked out several times (to other hobby interests) these past 40 years, but have always returned to T206's. As is obvious, having put together 5
near-complete (or complete sets) and numerous sub-sets.





TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.


Ted,

First, many, many thanks to you for all of the info you've graciously shared in these threads. The many reference threads you did are hands down my first point of reference for anything related to T206s. There are many new people beginning to collect T206s every day (myself included, I've only been at them for 3 years now). But, without people like you sharing this info, us newbies would have no idea as to the significance of the many nuances in the set. I learn something new every time I read these reference threads.

Personally, the most fascinating ones to me were the ones related to the Elite 11's. I had no idea of their significance or their rarity until reading this Net54 Reference thread about them. As soon as I did was hooked on finding all of them. It took me about 8 months, and with the help of some fellow Net54 board members, I was able to find all of them in both the P350 and EPDG backs (minus the Schulte P350). I am still constantly on the lookout for them and enjoy upgrading the ones I have when I find a new one. My favorite one is the Lundgren (pictured below) because I found it in a raw partial Cubs team set that I purchased. I had no idea of its condition from the scans in the auction, and was elated when I received it.

I also had no idea about the significance of the Super-6 until reading this thread. I was lucky enough to purchase an Evers with Bat-Chicago with a Sovereign 460 back. However, I had no idea of the significance of how rare this back was until much later when I stumbled across it in your thread.

Thank you!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Lundgren Chicago 350.jpg (76.0 KB, 269 views)
File Type: jpg Back Lundgren Chicago 350.jpg (76.6 KB, 265 views)
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  #1203  
Old 01-31-2021, 08:09 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Default T206 REFERENCE..... "You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave"

Hi Frank

That's a great story. Thanks for sharing it with us. What is your next T206 adventure ?

Thank you for your complimentary words. Needless to say, "The Monster" is a very complex set, and I'm willing to share my theories and experiences
which I have gleaned from collecting these tobacco cards the past 40years.


TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.
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  #1204  
Old 01-31-2021, 09:55 PM
frankrizzo29 frankrizzo29 is offline
Frank Bev.ilac.qua
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Default

Hi Ted,

My main project is working on the monster (522 minus wagner and doyle). I'm almost halfway there, but am really focused on the HOFers right now. I only have 9 or 10 more to go for them. It's fun and I'm enjoying the journey!
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  #1205  
Old 02-01-2021, 08:01 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Join Date: Apr 2009
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Posts: 8,655
Default T206 REFERENCE...... "You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave"

Quote:
Originally Posted by frankrizzo29 View Post
Hi Ted,

My main project is working on the monster (522 minus wagner and doyle). I'm almost halfway there, but am really focused on the HOFers right now. I only have 9 or 10 more to go for them. It's fun and I'm enjoying the journey!

Hi Frank

You are playing the "game" very smartly by concentrating on acquiring the HOFers early. The prices on some of these guys have become ridiculous.
I predict you may reach at least the 518 mark by the end of this year (perhaps even sooner). Good Luck to you.

I am curious, in the process of putting this set together, do you favor any particular T-brand ?


TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.
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  #1206  
Old 02-02-2021, 06:00 PM
frankrizzo29 frankrizzo29 is offline
Frank Bev.ilac.qua
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Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Ohio
Posts: 102
Default

Hi Ted,
I tried replying via the messages but not sure if it worked. Please email me at frankbev29@yahoo.com.
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  #1207  
Old 02-04-2021, 12:03 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 8,655
Default "You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave"

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


... Sweet Caporal .... Sovereign ....American Beauty__The "House" that created these Tobacco cards__....Piedmont ......... Sovereign ............ UZIT


Hey guys,

I don't do "PM's".

I will gladly reply to any questions which you may have. Feel free to contact me directly...... tedzan11@comcast.net

Or, just post your questions here on this thread.....Thank you.


TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

Last edited by tedzan; 02-05-2021 at 09:01 AM. Reason: Added information.
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  #1208  
Old 02-22-2021, 07:11 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 8,655
Default Revisiting the 150-only Series.....and, let's see your cards.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE......Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


The five T-brands printed on the backs of the 150-only Series of T206 cards


American Lithographic introduced the T206 set during the Spring of 1909 by printing these 12 cards then shipped them to T-Factory's____
.

.


One way to gauge a group of subjects printed in a specific T206 Series is to compare their pop report data. Given normal probability, their numbers will closely coincide
with respect to their T206 backs. And, of course the numbers of the HOFer cards in this group will be somewhat higher than the common cards in the group.


Here's looking at the bigger picture of the 150-only Series from the perspective of the pop report data...... **

Subjects----HINDU----SOV----SC25----SC30----PIEDMONT

Ames ------------ 7 ------- 12 ----- 13 ----- 33 ------- 118

G. Brown ------- 14 ------ 10 ----- 12 ------ 44 ------- 189

M. Brown -------- 8 ------ 15 ----- 13 ------ 51 ------- 269 HOF

Burch ------------ 8 ------ 17 ----- 15 ------ 27 ------- 163

Donlin ---------- 10 ------- 9 ------- 9 ------ 55 ------- 178

Doyle ----------- 13 ------- 8 ------ 16 ------ 27 ------ 155

Evers ----------- 11 ------ 10 ------ 15 ------ 47 ------ 222 HOF

Pattee ----------- 9 ------- 11 ----- 14 ------ 37 ------- 182

Pelty ------------- 8 ------- 11 ----- 11 ------ 38 ------- 173

Reulbach -------- 9 -------- 9 ------ 9 ------- 30 ------- 170

Schulte --------- 10 ------- 7 ------ 13 ------ 35 ------- 160


Furthermore, I consider Frank Schulte a 150-only subject. My theory is that American Lithographic replaced the vacant Wagner slot in their early press run with the Schulte card.





** Note..... the above numbers are from PSA pop report data.
Comparing this data with the SGC pop report data, the pattern
coincides very closely. But, the magnitude of the SGC numbers
are slightly lower.


I'd say that the cards in the 150-only Series are the toughest T206's to find than T206's in the subsequent series in this set. It would be very interesting to hear of your
experiences, comments, and see your cards regarding these 150-only subjects ?
I look forward to your responses.


TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

Last edited by tedzan; 02-23-2021 at 09:35 AM. Reason: Corrected typo.
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  #1209  
Old 02-23-2021, 11:10 AM
steve B steve B is offline
Steve Birmingham
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Location: eastern Mass.
Posts: 6,590
Default

I have
Ames
G Brown
Burch

Probably because at one point I figured I'd go for them alphabetically. A plan I gave up on fairly quickly.

I didn't really find those all that difficult.

If I remember correctly, Schulte was listed as a 150 only until a single P350 showed up. At the time I was thinking it was an example of the factory using up "leftover" 150 fronts that hadn't had backs printed yet. A few sheets worth wouldn't be noticed in what must have been a large order for cards with Piedmont 350 backs.

Of the 12, seven have the plate scratches, (Perhaps more, I haven't updated my list in a while. ) Which I've always thought of as being later production rather than early.
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  #1210  
Old 02-23-2021, 02:08 PM
Pat R's Avatar
Pat R Pat R is offline
P@trick R.omolo
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve B View Post
I have
Ames
G Brown
Burch

Probably because at one point I figured I'd go for them alphabetically. A plan I gave up on fairly quickly.

I didn't really find those all that difficult.

If I remember correctly, Schulte was listed as a 150 only until a single P350 showed up. At the time I was thinking it was an example of the factory using up "leftover" 150 fronts that hadn't had backs printed yet. A few sheets worth wouldn't be noticed in what must have been a large order for cards with Piedmont 350 backs.

Of the 12, seven have the plate scratches, (Perhaps more, I haven't updated my list in a while. ) Which I've always thought of as being later production rather than early.
Hi Steve, all of them have plate scratches except Wagner. Like you my thoughts are that the plate scratches were somewhere between the middle
and the end of the 150 printing.
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  #1211  
Old 02-23-2021, 06:04 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 8,655
Default Revisiting the 150-only Series.....and, let's see your cards

I have been asked about the T206 cards of Mike "Doc" Powers. His cards are found only with 150 backs and brown HINDU.

Mike Powers was the preferred battery mate of Eddie Plank. Unfortunately, on Opening Day of Shibe Park (April 12, 1909)
in Philadelphia, Mike Powers was injured on the field. In the hospital, the doctors discovered he had serious intestinal sys-
tem problems. Mike passed away 2 weeks later.

Powers is a 150/350 series subject. American Lithographic stopped printing his card due to his untimely death; therefore,
he was not printed with any 350 series backs. Pat Romolo's (Pat R.) extensive analysis of T206 cards which have printed
"scratch" marks on their Piedmont backs reveals that Powers was printed on a sheet with the other 150/350 subjects.

TED Z
.
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  #1212  
Old 02-24-2021, 12:43 PM
steve B steve B is offline
Steve Birmingham
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Location: eastern Mass.
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
I have been asked about the T206 cards of Mike "Doc" Powers. His cards are found only with 150 backs and brown HINDU.

Mike Powers was the preferred battery mate of Eddie Plank. Unfortunately, on Opening Day of Shibe Park (April 12, 1909)
in Philadelphia, Mike Powers was injured on the field. In the hospital, the doctors discovered he had serious intestinal sys-
tem problems. Mike passed away 2 weeks later.

Powers is a 150/350 series subject. American Lithographic stopped printing his card due to his untimely death; therefore,
he was not printed with any 350 series backs. Pat Romolo's (Pat R.) extensive analysis of T206 cards which have printed
"scratch" marks on their Piedmont backs reveals that Powers was printed on a sheet with the other 150/350 subjects.

TED Z
.
A fine proof that while many subjects carried over from 150 to 350 they are actually different groups.
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  #1213  
Old 02-24-2021, 08:04 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Posts: 8,655
Default Revisiting the 150-only Series.....and, let's see your cards

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve B View Post
I have
Ames
G Brown
Burch

Probably because at one point I figured I'd go for them alphabetically. A plan I gave up on fairly quickly.

I didn't really find those all that difficult.

Steve

Of course the PIEDMONT 150 and SWEET CAP 150/#30 backs of these cards are not too difficult.

However, their HINDU & SOVEREIGN 150 backs are considerably tougher to find for serious T206
back collectors (like me). When I was putting together my all - SOVEREIGN set these 12 subjects
with SOVEREIGN backs were not easy to find. Furthermore, I know of two other Net54 members
who put together all - SOVEREIGN sets, who had similar difficulties finding these 12 guys.

Also, I might add their SWEET CAP 150/#25 cards can be quite tough to find.


TED Z

T206 REFERENCE....convenient access to T206 checklists
.

Last edited by tedzan; 02-25-2021 at 07:43 PM. Reason: Corrected typo.
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  #1214  
Old 02-26-2021, 08:30 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 8,655
Default T206 REFERENCE...... the "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card Survey

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *


...... Piedmont .......... Sovereign ...... Sweet Caporal___The "House" that created these Tobacco cards___Piedmont #42 ........ Hindu ........... Sovereign


Twenty-one new inputs to this Joe Doyle survey since the last post. One of these 21 inputs have this "printer's mark". So far, the results of this 13-year Survey
suggests to us that we can expect to find this "printer's mark" on a Joe Doyle card on the average of only ONE out of approx. every 16 cards.




- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Printer's mark - -^



UPDATED...... Feb 26, 2021 (395 unique samples)


T-brand.............Mark.....No-Mark

Piedmont 350........14..........159

Sweet Cap 350.......5...........144

Polar Bear..............4............34

Old Mill..................1.............7

Sovereign 350.........0...........19

Tolstoi....................0.............6

EPDG.....................0.............2
____________________________

Totals.................. 24 ........ 371

24 - Joe Doyle cards with this printer's mark...... 24/395 = 6.07%




TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 03-02-2021 at 04:41 PM. Reason: Updated Survey.
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  #1215  
Old 02-27-2021, 01:02 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
Posts: 8,655
Default T206 REFERENCE...... the "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card Survey

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *


...... Piedmont .......... Sovereign ...... Sweet Caporal___The "House" that created these Tobacco cards___Piedmont #42 ........ Hindu ........... Sovereign


Hey Guys,

I started this Survey in 2007, and many of you have participated in it. I really appreciate all your inputs. Some inputs posted on my original Net54 thread, while others from
Net54 members at the Philly Shows, or at the National Shows.

How's about chiming in here with a few more inputs, and please include a scan of your Joe Doyle card.


TED Z

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  #1216  
Old 02-27-2021, 08:32 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default T206 REFERENCE...... the "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card Survey

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *


...... Piedmont .......... Sovereign ...... Sweet Caporal___The "House" that created these Tobacco cards___Piedmont #42 ........ Hindu ........... Sovereign


No new posts yet; however, I received a couple of emails from "readers" of Net54, who provided 4 inputs. These Joe Doyle's have been added to the survey. None of which
having this "printer's mark".
This on-going 13-year Survey..https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=87066..suggests that on average, 1 out of 16 cards are found with this "printer's mark".

Hey guys, how about playing in this game by posting your Joe Doyle's here to continue this survey.....Thanks.



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -^ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Printer's Mark - - - -^ (remnant of "N" in Nat'L)


UPDATED...... Feb 27, 2021 (400 unique samples)


T-brand.............Mark.....No-Mark

Piedmont 350........15..........161

Sweet Cap 350.......5...........146

Polar Bear..............4............34

Old Mill..................1.............7

Sovereign 350.........0...........19

Tolstoi....................0.............6

EPDG.....................0.............2
____________________________

Totals.................. 25 ........ 375

24 - Joe Doyle cards with this printer's mark...... 25/400 = 6.025%



TED Z
.

Last edited by tedzan; 03-01-2021 at 09:18 PM. Reason: Updated Survey.
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  #1217  
Old 02-28-2021, 08:08 AM
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One in sixteen is about right for a print variation Ted.

Here are two other Doyle variations.

The "Nevada" variation missing the bottom of the Y

Doyle N. V..jpg


missing the period and part of the top right of the Y

Doyle no period.jpg
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  #1218  
Old 02-28-2021, 08:20 AM
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Ted,

I've been reading through this thread for quite some time and I find the stories behind t206's fascinating. It seems like a never ending rabbit hole! Even if they're just various commons, I find myself wanting to start picking up more! So much history behind each of the cards, hell I think I'm getting a little emotional about some cardboard! I have to thank you for putting this together along with the rest of the contributors to this thread.

- James
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  #1219  
Old 02-28-2021, 11:13 AM
frankrizzo29 frankrizzo29 is offline
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Default Poor man's Doyle

Ted,

I completely understand why there is the printer's mark on the Doyle with a Piedmont 350 back. However, I don't understand why there could be the exact same "partial N" on the non-piedmont 350 backs. Do you or anyone else have an hypothesis?

Thanks, Frank
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  #1220  
Old 02-28-2021, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankrizzo29 View Post
Ted,

I completely understand why there is the printer's mark on the Doyle with a Piedmont 350 back. However, I don't understand why there could be the exact same "partial N" on the non-piedmont 350 backs. Do you or anyone else have an hypothesis?

Thanks, Frank
Hi Frank,

Because even though the Doyle N.Y. NAT'L was only printed with the Piedmont 350 back the same plates were used for other backs after the NAT'L was removed and on one of those plates a small part of the N remained.

Last edited by Pat R; 02-28-2021 at 12:12 PM.
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  #1221  
Old 02-28-2021, 11:51 AM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankrizzo29 View Post
Ted,

I completely understand why there is the printer's mark on the Doyle with a Piedmont 350 back. However, I don't understand why there could be the exact same "partial N" on the non-piedmont 350 backs. Do you or anyone else have an hypothesis?

Thanks, Frank
Hi Frank

My explanation of why OLD MILL, POLAR, BEAR, SWEET CAPORAL (besides PIEDMONT) is simple. Before the printer(s) at American Litho realized they left the remnant of the "N"
when they initially erased "Nat'L" from the printing plate, they printed several T-brands on the backs of the pre-printed (front) sheets. Then, some "keen-eyed" printer spotted it
and completely erased this mark on the plate.

I may add....that PSA (several years ago) graded a Joe Doyle Nat'L card with a POLAR BEAR back on it. And, a collector paid a lot of $$$$$ for this fake card.

TED Z
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  #1222  
Old 02-28-2021, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Hi Frank

My explanation of why OLD MILL, POLAR, BEAR, SWEET CAPORAL (besides PIEDMONT) is simple. Before the printer(s) at American Litho realized they left the remnant of the "N"
when they initially erased "Nat'L" from the printing plate, they printed several T-brands on the backs of the pre-printed (front) sheets. Then, some "keen-eyed" printer spotted it
and completely erased this mark on the plate.

I may add....that PSA (several years ago) graded a Joe Doyle Nat'L card with a POLAR BEAR back on it. And, a collector paid a lot of $$$$$ for this fake card.

TED Z
.
I don't think that's accurate Ted, the ones with the partial N were made from a particular plate and the small remnant was most likely never spotted or
removed.
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  #1223  
Old 02-28-2021, 02:36 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default T206 REFERENCE...... the "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card Survey

Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Hi Frank

My explanation of why OLD MILL, POLAR, BEAR, SWEET CAPORAL (besides PIEDMONT) is simple. Before the printer(s) at American Litho realized they left the remnant of the "N"
when they initially erased "Nat'L" from the printing plate, they printed several T-brands on the backs of the pre-printed (front) sheets. Then, some "keen-eyed" printer spotted it
and completely erased this mark on the plate.
TED Z
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
I don't think that's accurate Ted, the ones with the partial N were made from a particular plate and the small remnant was most likely never spotted or
removed.
Pat

I don't understand what you mean by "a particular plate" ?


Perhaps the description in my above post isn't clear. So, I will try to elucidate here......

(A) American Litho (ALC) initially printed (incorrectly) the front of Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'L card. Followed by the back with the PIEDMONT 350 advertisement.
ALC usually printed the PIEDMONT backs first and in a much greater amount. PIEDMONT was ATC's "flagship" Tobacco brand.

(B) An astute ALC employee caught this error (Nat'L) and quickly stopped the press. They removed the word "Nat'L" from the plate which prints the captions.
However, in the process the printer left a tiny remnant of the "N" on the caption plate.

(C) ALC then continued to print Joe Doyle N. Y. . cards. And at this point they also started to print the OLD MILL, POLAR BEAR, and SWEET CAPORAL backs.

(D) A keen-eyed ALC employee spotted the extraneous printer's mark and stopped the presses. And again the plate which printed the captions was cleared of
this extraneous mark.

(E) ALC then continued printing the correct Joe Doyle cards (with PIEDMONT,
EPDG, OLD MILL, POLAR BEAR, SOVEREIGN, SWEET CAP, and TOLSTOI backs).


Hey guys, although this is my theory of the events that transpired at ALC in this matter....it is based on my experience working at a Print Shop in my youth.


TED Z
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  #1224  
Old 02-28-2021, 06:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Pat

I don't understand what you mean by "a particular plate" ?


Perhaps the description in my above post isn't clear. So, I will try to elucidate here......

(A) American Litho (ALC) initially printed (incorrectly) the front of Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'L card. Followed by the back with the PIEDMONT 350 advertisement.
ALC usually printed the PIEDMONT backs first and in a much greater amount. PIEDMONT was ATC's "flagship" Tobacco brand.

(B) An astute ALC employee caught this error (Nat'L) and quickly stopped the press. They removed the word "Nat'L" from the plate which prints the captions.
However, in the process the printer left a tiny remnant of the "N" on the caption plate.

(C) ALC then continued to print Joe Doyle N. Y. . cards. And at this point they also started to print the OLD MILL, POLAR BEAR, and SWEET CAPORAL backs.

(D) A keen-eyed ALC employee spotted the extraneous printer's mark and stopped the presses. And again the plate which printed the captions was cleared of
this extraneous mark.

(E) ALC then continued printing the correct Joe Doyle cards (with PIEDMONT,
EPDG, OLD MILL, POLAR BEAR, SOVEREIGN, SWEET CAP, and TOLSTOI backs).


Hey guys, although this is my theory of the events that transpired at ALC in this matter....it is based on my experience working at a Print Shop in my youth.


TED Z
.
We know that the T206 sheets were printed with the same vertical subject in several rows on a sheet. For example if there were five Doyle's on a sheet
there would have been five sets of plates (one for each position on the sheet) so the Doyle with the partial N would have come from a particular position
and plate as would the Doyle examples missing the period/part of the Y and the ones missing the bottom of the Y that I posted in a previous post.
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  #1225  
Old 02-28-2021, 09:49 PM
frankrizzo29 frankrizzo29 is offline
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Thank you Pat and Ted!

The knowledge by everyone in this community never ceases to amaze me. Thank you! Frank
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  #1226  
Old 03-01-2021, 09:10 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default T206 REFERENCE.....the "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card and related subjects

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *


...... Piedmont .......... Sovereign ...... Sweet Caporal___The "House" that created these Tobacco cards___Piedmont #42 ........ Hindu ........... Sovereign


I received a call today from a long-time Sportscard collecting buddy who I haven't heard from in many a moon. He "dug up" his BB cards which he archived many years
ago, and he wanted to tell me that his T206 set includes 9 of the Elite 11 with PIEDMONT 350 cards. And, his Joe Doyle has the "printer's mark" on it's caption. Most all
of his T206's are from an original collection which he acquired in Georgia back in the 1980's..

I sense there is connection between the Elite 11 cards and the Joe Doyle card....despite the fact that the former 11 cards are 150/350 subjects; and, the Joe Doyle card
was initially printed during the 350 Series production runs. The pop reports further reinforce my thinking since the Elite 11 PIEDMONT 350 numbers closely coincide with
the 9 (or 10) known Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'L cards.

I say this, since the majority of finds of the PIEDMONT 350 cards of the Elite 11 are from the Atlanta (GA) area. Also, several of the Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'L were originally
from the Atlanta area. Starting with Senator Russell's 1910-1911 T-card collection (on display at the Univ. of Georgia) that includes the Joe Doyle Nat'L card.

Furthermore, approx. 12 years ago, I acquired a lot of T206's from an Antique dealer in Atlanta. All these cards were from an original collection in a town nearby Atlanta.
This collection was strictly PIEDMONT 350 cards; and, I was pleasantly surprised to find 8 of the Elite 11 cards in this group.

In 2017, Turner Engle acquired an original collection of T205's & T206's from Roswell, GA. This collection included several of the Elite 11 cards with PIEDMONT 350 backs.

I have been tracking these rare T206's since 2006, for more info refer to this thread.... http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=87180


Therefore.....give this subject some thought, and let's see what kind of connection we can arrive at, with respect to the printing of these cards ?


TED Z
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  #1227  
Old 03-02-2021, 08:01 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default T206 REFERENCE.....the "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card and related subjects

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * *


...... Piedmont .......... Sovereign ...... Sweet Caporal___The "House" that created these Tobacco cards___Piedmont #42 ........ Hindu ........... Sovereign


Well, since there haven't been any responses yet to my inquiry in the above post, it's time for a friendly "bump".....

So, I'll display the Joe Doyle cards in my "complete" PIEDMONT....SOVEREIGN....SWEET CAPORAL (Factory #30) sets [missing the Wagner's]






I'm open to any ideas, that may associate the printing of the Joe Doyle Nat'L cards with the Elite 11 cards, that lend to some meaningful discussion(s).


TED Z

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  #1228  
Old 03-03-2021, 07:22 AM
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I was waiting for some other people to reply Ted but since they didn't
I will say there is substantial evidence that there is no printing relationship of
the DOYLE N.Y. NAT"L to the elite 11.

I'm heading off to work and I will post more later but consider these facts
from the two name cards and plate scratches.

The elite eleven cards with plate scratches are spread out among different
sheets.

In the list of two name cards there are no examples of a 150 only or 150/350
subject mixed in with a 350 subject. If it's a 150 -150/350 subject on the
bottom it's the same on the top name and vice-versa for the 350 subjects.

There's a two name Dahlen Boston with Heinie Wagner on top.
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  #1229  
Old 03-03-2021, 05:45 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default T206 REFERENCE.....the "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card and related subjects

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
I was waiting for some other people to reply Ted but since they didn't
I will say there is substantial evidence that there is no printing relationship of
the DOYLE N.Y. NAT"L to the elite 11.

I'm heading off to work and I will post more later but consider these facts
from the two name cards and plate scratches.

The elite eleven cards with plate scratches are spread out among different
sheets.


In the list of two name cards there are no examples of a 150 only or 150/350
subject mixed in with a 350 subject. If it's a 150 -150/350 subject on the
bottom it's the same on the top name and vice-versa for the 350 subjects.

There's a two name Dahlen Boston with Heinie Wagner on top.

Pat

I appreciate your response to this subject.

The Elite 11 which you noted with plate scratches, are these scratches only on their PIEDMONT 150 cards, or also on the PIEDMONT 350 versions ?


Normally, I would not draw any connection between 150/350 Series cards and 350 Series cards.....such as the Elite 11 group and the Joe Doyle
card, respectively.

I find it hard, though, to dismiss the repeated coincidences regarding the source between the Elite 11 group and the Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'L cards.
The sources of the Elite 11 subjects are from original finds strictly in the greater Atlanta area.

Four documented original finds of the Elite 11 cards have been identified as emanating from Atlanta area. And at least two original finds (perhaps
more) of the Joe Doyle Nat'L card are also identified from the Atlanta area.

Furthermore, the average of the numbers in the pop reports indicate that the Elite 11 subjects (PIEDMONT 350) and the Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'L (10-
cards) are quite comparable. I cannot believe this is just due to mere coincidence.


TED Z

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  #1230  
Old 03-03-2021, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tedzan View Post
Pat

I appreciate your response to this subject.

The Elite 11 which you noted with plate scratches, are these scratches only on their PIEDMONT 150 cards, or also on the PIEDMONT 350 versions ?


Normally, I would not draw any connection between 150/350 Series cards and 350 Series cards.....such as the Elite 11 group and the Joe Doyle
card, respectively.

I find it hard, though, to dismiss the repeated coincidences regarding the source between the Elite 11 group and the Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'L cards.
The sources of the Elite 11 subjects are from original finds strictly in the greater Atlanta area.

Four documented original finds of the Elite 11 cards have been identified as emanating from Atlanta area. And at least two original finds (perhaps
more) of the Joe Doyle Nat'L card are also identified from the Atlanta area.

Furthermore, the average of the numbers in the pop reports indicate that the Elite 11 subjects (PIEDMONT 350) and the Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'L (10-
cards) are quite comparable. I cannot believe this is just due to mere coincidence.


TED Z

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Ted

The plate scratches are on the Piedmont 150 only I haven't found any of the scratches that have continued over to the Piedmont 350's.

Ganley and Shaw are on the left side of sheet 1A with Konetchy in between them

0 Sheet 1A.jpg

Dahlen is on sheet 2b

0 Sheet 2B.jpg


Karger, Lindaman, Mullin, and Schaefer are on sheet 3 with Lindaman in the right of center Mullin, Schaefer, and Karger are on the right end with Tannehill
in between Mullin and Schaefer



0 Sheet 3.jpg

There are no confirmed scratches for Ewing, Jones, Lundgren or spencer.

also the fact that Joe Doyle was printed with a Sovereign 350 apple green back suggests to me that he was initially intended to be a 350/460 subject
and the printing of any of his cards including the NAT"L wouldn't have began until long after the piedmont 350's were printed on the elite 11.
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  #1231  
Old 03-03-2021, 09:30 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
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Default T206 REFERENCE.....the "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card and related subjects

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post
The plate scratches are on the Piedmont 150 only I haven't found any of the scratches that have continued over to the Piedmont 350's.
Pat

Those sheets are really great.

However, they do not really tell us what the arrangement of the Elite 11 subjects were when American Litho (ALC) subsequently printed the PIEDMONT 350 backs.
We do not know for sure how they modified the plates for the 350 print runs.
The fact that just 133 (of the 143) subjects of the 150/350 series cards were printed with PIEDMONT 350 backs tells us that ALC did some modifying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat R View Post

.....also the fact that Joe Doyle was printed with a Sovereign 350 apple green back suggests to me that he was initially intended to be a 350/460 subject
and the printing of any of his cards including the NAT"L wouldn't have began until long after the piedmont 350's were printed on the elite 11.
Yes, the SOVEREIGN 350 (apple green) print run occurred later in the game. However, that does not tell us where in the process Joe Doyle was initially printed.
Consider this.....the Six Super-Prints were also printed on that SOVEREIGN 350 sheet. And, we know for a fact that these 6 subjects were initially printed when
ALC first started the 350-only Series.


TED Z
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Last edited by tedzan; 03-04-2021 at 09:40 AM. Reason: Corrected typo.
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  #1232  
Old 03-03-2021, 11:35 PM
steve B steve B is offline
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There are a few things that complicate all of this.

The plates were only good for so many impressions, and after that were resurfaced and reused for something else.

The images were put on the plate using transfers printed from a master.

There's a lot of evidence of at least some of the masters being reworked at least twice during 150 production, producing cards that can be told apart.

Many of the masters that carried over to the 350 series were also reworked between series. 350's themselves were reworked during the runs. Most of the differences are subtle, some aren't, but don't get much hobby recognition.

Teds timeline of the Doyle variations is pretty close to how I see it, with a couple differences. And it's possible we mean the same thing, but word it differently. I'll paste it in below with my thoughts in red.

(A) American Litho (ALC) initially printed (incorrectly) the front of Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'L card. Followed by the back with the PIEDMONT 350 advertisement.
ALC usually printed the PIEDMONT backs first and in a much greater amount. PIEDMONT was ATC's "flagship" Tobacco brand.
Pretty much agreed, The only difference is slight, that being that Piedmont production was probably nearly constant. Perhaps split into different specific orders, but Piedmonts were probably always being printed

(B) An astute ALC employee caught this error (Nat'L) and quickly stopped the press. They removed the word "Nat'L" from the plate which prints the captions.
However, in the process the printer left a tiny remnant of the "N" on the caption plate.
Plus most likely the missing period and part of the Y variety, and maybe the NV variety. That last one could be from a faulty transfer on a different second brown/caption plate OR a faulty transfer on the original plate(It's not entirely compatible with the stoning off process, while the missing period and the N remnant is)

(C) ALC then continued to print Joe Doyle N. Y. . cards. And at this point they also started to print the OLD MILL, POLAR BEAR, and SWEET CAPORAL backs.
Here we diverge slightly. But just slightly. I'd describe it as continuing to print those fronts using that original but corrected plate and printing additional backs on those fronts to fulfill orders for those brands. It's maybe just a different way of saying the same thing.

(D) A keen-eyed ALC employee spotted the extraneous printer's mark and stopped the presses. And again the plate which printed the captions was cleared of
this extraneous mark.
Now the messy stuff happens...
Alternately, and more likely they finish production with that plate when it gets worn or the orders that it was for a fulfilled. Then produce a new set of plates for the next orders, or to continue to fulfill the ongoing Piedmont order, using a corrected master.
OR
As Ted says, the fragment of that N is finally noticed, and stoned off. Possibly creating the variety missing the period and part of the Y. (I don't think it's likely, but it's entirely possible. )


(E) ALC then continued printing the correct Joe Doyle cards (with PIEDMONT,
EPDG, OLD MILL, POLAR BEAR, SOVEREIGN, SWEET CAP, and TOLSTOI backs).

This could have been done from the corrected plate, or from a new plate made using a corrected master. It would take lots of study, but should be provable, as the new brown/caption master may have matched reworked masters for the other colors. That also means that cards from the original corrected sheet can possibly be told apart from the new ones.

It's also possible that for some of those brands leftover extra sheets of fronts were used up to complete orders. *


* Typically each stage of production would include extra sheets to allow for a complete order even if some sheets were spoiled. Having a bunch of leftover sheets, maybe even enough to cover an order from a smaller brand like Tolstoi.
What we don't know is exactly how the orders were written. If they just said something like "X number of cards with baseball subjects with Tolstoi advertising" Then leftover sheets being used for at least part of the order is likely.
If it was "X number of cards with baseball subjects, assortment A with Tolstoi advertising" Or specifying particular players, then it's far less likely.


The transition to the 350 backs probably allowed lots of 150 extra sheets to be used up. If the non-elite 11 subjects from the sheets were carried over they may be identifiable from leftover 150's.

Pat- I have pics of what I believe is a P350 with a remnant of a scratch that survived the resurfacing. I keep forgetting to send it to you to see if it matches any of the known ones. It could also be placed differently, making an ID difficult.

And again, this is largely educated guesses with some card evidence that may "prove" the ideas. And more that hasn't been looked into yet. It's mostly a matter of outlook, most people see that set as a sort of complex thing where most cards fit into five nice neat categories. I picture it as much more complex.
I'm finally getting a bit of time to do some of the comparisons I need to do, and have found three good sources of high res scans. So maybe...
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  #1233  
Old 03-05-2021, 07:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve B View Post
There are a few things that complicate all of this.

The plates were only good for so many impressions, and after that were resurfaced and reused for something else.

The images were put on the plate using transfers printed from a master.

There's a lot of evidence of at least some of the masters being reworked at least twice during 150 production, producing cards that can be told apart.

Many of the masters that carried over to the 350 series were also reworked between series. 350's themselves were reworked during the runs. Most of the differences are subtle, some aren't, but don't get much hobby recognition.

Teds timeline of the Doyle variations is pretty close to how I see it, with a couple differences. And it's possible we mean the same thing, but word it differently. I'll paste it in below with my thoughts in red.

(A) American Litho (ALC) initially printed (incorrectly) the front of Joe Doyle N. Y. Nat'L card. Followed by the back with the PIEDMONT 350 advertisement.
ALC usually printed the PIEDMONT backs first and in a much greater amount. PIEDMONT was ATC's "flagship" Tobacco brand.
Pretty much agreed, The only difference is slight, that being that Piedmont production was probably nearly constant. Perhaps split into different specific orders, but Piedmonts were probably always being printed

(B) An astute ALC employee caught this error (Nat'L) and quickly stopped the press. They removed the word "Nat'L" from the plate which prints the captions.
However, in the process the printer left a tiny remnant of the "N" on the caption plate.
Plus most likely the missing period and part of the Y variety, and maybe the NV variety. That last one could be from a faulty transfer on a different second brown/caption plate OR a faulty transfer on the original plate(It's not entirely compatible with the stoning off process, while the missing period and the N remnant is)

(C) ALC then continued to print Joe Doyle N. Y. . cards. And at this point they also started to print the OLD MILL, POLAR BEAR, and SWEET CAPORAL backs.
Here we diverge slightly. But just slightly. I'd describe it as continuing to print those fronts using that original but corrected plate and printing additional backs on those fronts to fulfill orders for those brands. It's maybe just a different way of saying the same thing.

(D) A keen-eyed ALC employee spotted the extraneous printer's mark and stopped the presses. And again the plate which printed the captions was cleared of
this extraneous mark.
Now the messy stuff happens...
Alternately, and more likely they finish production with that plate when it gets worn or the orders that it was for a fulfilled. Then produce a new set of plates for the next orders, or to continue to fulfill the ongoing Piedmont order, using a corrected master.
OR
As Ted says, the fragment of that N is finally noticed, and stoned off. Possibly creating the variety missing the period and part of the Y. (I don't think it's likely, but it's entirely possible. )


(E) ALC then continued printing the correct Joe Doyle cards (with PIEDMONT,
EPDG, OLD MILL, POLAR BEAR, SOVEREIGN, SWEET CAP, and TOLSTOI backs).

This could have been done from the corrected plate, or from a new plate made using a corrected master. It would take lots of study, but should be provable, as the new brown/caption master may have matched reworked masters for the other colors. That also means that cards from the original corrected sheet can possibly be told apart from the new ones.

It's also possible that for some of those brands leftover extra sheets of fronts were used up to complete orders. *


* Typically each stage of production would include extra sheets to allow for a complete order even if some sheets were spoiled. Having a bunch of leftover sheets, maybe even enough to cover an order from a smaller brand like Tolstoi.
What we don't know is exactly how the orders were written. If they just said something like "X number of cards with baseball subjects with Tolstoi advertising" Then leftover sheets being used for at least part of the order is likely.
If it was "X number of cards with baseball subjects, assortment A with Tolstoi advertising" Or specifying particular players, then it's far less likely.


The transition to the 350 backs probably allowed lots of 150 extra sheets to be used up. If the non-elite 11 subjects from the sheets were carried over they may be identifiable from leftover 150's.

Pat- I have pics of what I believe is a P350 with a remnant of a scratch that survived the resurfacing. I keep forgetting to send it to you to see if it matches any of the known ones. It could also be placed differently, making an ID difficult.

And again, this is largely educated guesses with some card evidence that may "prove" the ideas. And more that hasn't been looked into yet. It's mostly a matter of outlook, most people see that set as a sort of complex thing where most cards fit into five nice neat categories. I picture it as much more complex.
I'm finally getting a bit of time to do some of the comparisons I need to do, and have found three good sources of high res scans. So maybe...
Steve, there is another variation that's missing part of the Y but not the period

Doyle missing Y but not period.jpg


and all of the NV variations have a darker blue spot on them that's only found on the NV Doyle's.

Doyle NV Sov 350-2 - Copy.jpg

Doyle N. V..jpg
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  #1234  
Old 03-05-2021, 05:12 PM
tedzan tedzan is offline
Ted Zanidakis
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Pennsylvania & Maine
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Default T206 REFERENCE.....the "poor man's" T206 Joe Doyle "Nat'L" card and related subjects

* * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * *


...... Piedmont .......... Sovereign ...... Sweet Caporal___The "House" that created these Tobacco cards___..... Hindu ........... Sovereign


Circa Fall of 1910, American Lithographic (ALC) selected 66 subjects from the 350 series print runs for their 350/460 series. ALC printed the SOVEREIGN
backs of these 66 cards with a light color ink (apple green), instead of the dark green as on the backs of all the other SOVEREIGN cards. For more info on
this topic, check-out this thread posted in 2009....Sovereign phantom "350/460" series

I completed my all - SOVEREIGN set in 2007, which motivated me to construct this concept of a 72-card sheet arrangement of these 66 subjects. Note the
Super-Prints on this sheet are double-printed. **



V--------------------------- Six Super-Prints ---------------------------V--------------------------------------------v Joe Doyle (below Cobb)








Three of the guys on this sheet were not continued into the print runs of 460 Series backs (circa Fall/Winter 1910), because their Major League
careers ended prior to this period. The subjects are Simon Nicholls, Bob Rhoades, and Joe Doyle.


** Note
I show the Super-Prints double-printed (D-P) on this sheet, since several large T206 surveys have indicated that the six Super-Prints were D-P.


TED Z
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