new HOF "impact/era" ballot

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Clemens, in his last four seasons in Boston when he should have been in his absolute prime (age 30-33), went 40-39 with a god awful ERA. This wasn't just a guy who had an off year. He had completely lost his dominance. I don't think you will find many Red Sox fans who believe his remarkable turnaround from that point is due to anything except PEDs.

I think the argument would be that he had 3 Cy Youngs, a 2nd and 3rd and a MVP Award before he started doping in Toronto. Even though he only had 192 wins, he had an ERA+ of 144 and a WAR of 81. That is much better than Bonds who only had 2 MVPs, 176 HRs and a WAR of 50 prior to doping in SF.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

I think the argument would be that he had 3 Cy Youngs, a 2nd and 3rd and a MVP Award before he started doping in Toronto. Even though he only had 192 wins, he had an ERA+ of 144 and a WAR of 81. That is much better than Bonds who only had 2 MVPs, 176 HRs and a WAR of 50 prior to doping in SF.

What year are you assuming Bonds started?

[HRBAKER]

That's precisely the thing Peter, we don't.
They forfeited all favorable conjecture IMO as well.

[dgo71]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

That's precisely the thing Peter, we don't.
They forfeited all favorable conjecture IMO as well.

+1
The argument that they'd be HOFers regardless is based purely on speculation, since nobody knows when they began using. Seems steroids became rampant in the 80s with McGwire but everyone seems to assume Bonds and Clemens began in mid- to-late 90s?

And as to the comment about these players never admitting they used, that's exactly what McGwire did when he began coaching. So since he was mentioned in the OP, no, I don't think he should ever get in. Without power he was below average in almost every facet of the game, and his power stats are tarnished.

To the original question about the impact the new committee will have though, I unfortunately believe the new system was developed specifically to admit players from the PED era. It's no coincidence the dividing line for the modern players starts at 1988, nor that Big Mac was included on the first ballot under the new system.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I thought Bonds' girlfriend who ratted him out says he started using in response to the McGwire/Sosa season which was 1998. And I agree, up to that point the only player who might have had an argument that he was better was Griffey, and I think Bonds wins that argument. But, according to the GF, he was jealous of all the media attention on the home runs, and figured with the same PEDs he could do the same or better.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

I think the argument would be that he had 3 Cy Youngs, a 2nd and 3rd and a MVP Award before he started doping in Toronto. Even though he only had 192 wins, he had an ERA+ of 144 and a WAR of 81. That is much better than Bonds who only had 2 MVPs, 176 HRs and a WAR of 50 prior to doping in SF.

And it should have been 4 Cy Youngs. 1990 he was 21-6 1.93, and they give it to Bob Welch whose ERA was as I recall a full run higher.

[hysell]

Ok, I saw a show with Willie McCovey on it & he doesn"t back B.BONDS like W.MAYS does, say ,"he has never seen a drug/pill make a Baseball player?" I don"t care if your Superman or the Hulk,if you cant play or even hit the ball,how good can you be?Here is the fact in this sport, your a real good player if you fail 70% of the time?So if so easy to do?WHY are you or me not playing MLB baseball & you can put those great {NOT} HOFer voters on this LONGGGG list, also in the HOF?It"s a sport,these guys give up there bodys to play these sports?HOW many steroids & drugs are in our food ,right now? Do you think a turkey can reach 25 to 30 pounds in just under a years time?PLEASE,Robert.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by hysell

Ok, I saw a show with Willie McCovey on it & he doesn"t back B.BONDS like W.MAYS does, say ,"he has never seen a drug/pill make a Baseball player?" I don"t care if your Superman or the Hulk,if you cant play or even hit the ball,how good can you be?Here is the fact in this sport, your a real good player if you fail 70% of the time?So if so easy to do?WHY are you or me not playing MLB baseball & you can put those great {NOT} HOFer voters on this LONGGGG list, also in the HOF?It"s a sport,these guys give up there bodys to play these sports?HOW many steroids & drugs are in our food ,right now? Do you think a turkey can reach 25 to 30 pounds in just under a years time?PLEASE,Robert.

Your turkey info is way off. We have a turkey facility here and it is 75 days give or take 2 or 3 from hatch to a 15 lb turkey in the bag ready to cook. That # blew my mind.

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by hysell

Ok, I saw a show with Willie McCovey on it & he doesn"t back B.BONDS like W.MAYS does, say ,"he has never seen a drug/pill make a Baseball player?" I don"t care if your Superman or the Hulk,if you cant play or even hit the ball,how good can you be?Here is the fact in this sport, your a real good player if you fail 70% of the time?So if so easy to do?WHY are you or me not playing MLB baseball & you can put those great {NOT} HOFer voters on this LONGGGG list, also in the HOF?It"s a sport,these guys give up there bodys to play these sports?HOW many steroids & drugs are in our food ,right now? Do you think a turkey can reach 25 to 30 pounds in just under a years time?PLEASE,Robert.

just because you and Mr Mays are bad at science doesn't mean the rest of us are. It is a scientific fact that PED's improve performance due to their ability to increase recovery rates.

[nebboy]

I'm on Bonds side - go ahead and say what you want!!!!!!!
I watched him as a rookie and early years in Pittsburgh and I could always see him as a great player. On the personal side he's a GOOD father nothing to do with baseball but means something to me. I enjoyed many, many games he played and saw greatness. Ego and Following Willy Mays example never did a thing for him or with the press. But the press can keep their words and stories some where up their *#%s (I'm tied of them thinking we should agree with that dribbling.) He played the game at profound levels just when we the people needed it. (((( and we sucked it up)))) we all watched every minute.
He needs and has a place in the hall!

Go ahead and rip me but I'd vote for him...
My names John Hannsen and I willing to say what is Un - politically correct.

[hysell]

Ok,Nick, so your science is better than ours,so you MUST know WHO used & WHEN they use & when is YOUR book coming out on these facts, so I can buy it? Don"t need dume HOF voters,we have you?When did you play in the MLB & when are you going into the HOF,if your science says it"s so easy?Yes the PEDS sure did help his eye sight,when he is walking 200+ times a year & 1 time with the bases loaded,now that"s something you don"t see every year!The Turkey thing I may have been off on,but you guys get my point! But, Bill I did said 25 to 30 pounds,but maybe I should have said 20 to 25 pounds?15 pounds ,would be a good turkey in the wild & yes I do know your talking about farms?Like I said the HOF voting is a joke?Robert.

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by hysell

Ok,Nick, so your science is better than ours,so you MUST know WHO used & WHEN they use & when is YOUR book coming out on these facts, so I can buy it? Don"t need dume HOF voters,we have you?When did you play in the MLB & when are you going into the HOF,if your science says it"s so easy?Yes the PEDS sure did help his eye sight,when he is walking 200+ times a year & 1 time with the bases loaded,now that"s something you don"t see every year!The Turkey thing I may have been off on,but you guys get my point! But, Bill I did said 25 to 30 pounds,but maybe I should have said 20 to 25 pounds?15 pounds ,would be a good turkey in the wild & yes I do know your talking about farms?Like I said the HOF voting is a joke?Robert.

appeal to ignorance logical fallacy....

and yes, of the HOF eligible types I can say pretty confidently who did or didn't use long term (no way to tell if someone dabbled) nobody has a better or equal peak in their career after age 32 as they did between ages 24-38, never in the history of baseball had that occurred...... until the mid 90's. so either you think that 20+ people magically all broke statistical precedent at exactly the same time, or the is causation in the correlation.