Buying collections - can this work?

[Belfast1933]

I’m thinking about how to get more active in the area of buying out full collections.

I attend local shows from time to time and I often collector/sellers moving from table to table looking to sell (usually individual cards and more often, modern not vintage)

I am toying with the idea of setting up as a “dealer” at a few local shows with the sole intent to purchase vintage cards and vintage collections. I’d be open to making purchases on the spot, of course… but I wonder if this may also open up to opportunities to talk and network with collectors who may want to liquidate cards in bulk, etc.

I’d welcome your thoughts on whether this might be worth the effort. (And I’d love to also hear your other ideas on how to start to become more front & center buying out vintage collections)

Thx for your thoughts

Jeff

[raulus]

You can always try it out and see how it goes.

There's an old military quote that "no plan survives contact with the enemy."

Rather than spend too much time engaged in excessive omphaloskepsis and theorizing on the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin, I'd be inclined to give a few things a try, and see if they stick. If it's not working, then you can always adjust and/or abandon your approach. Another part of the fun here is that it's likely to be very lumpy. You might land a big collection at one show, and then nothing for the next 3.

The economist/business part of me does think that you'll be better off if you can somehow differentiate yourself from the "other guys". Obviously there's a lot of competition out there in this space buying up collections. Your differentiation might just be geographic. Or you might be willing to travel further than others are willing to go. The table at a show approach could theoretically be a differentiating factor, especially if you're at shows where the "other guys" aren't showing up.

It does strike me that you'll need some way to find:

1) People with collections
2) Who are ready to sell, and sell now
3) Who are willing to sell at wholesale prices

I'll go out on a limb and guess that for the most part, the people who fall into this category are probably either heirs, people who haven't collected for a while, or old guys who are just ready to be done (or need the money fast), and willing to sacrifice on price in order to get it done fast.

The only question in my mind is whether those people are the kinds of people who go to shows, or whether you need some other approach to reach them. I see lots of those "other guys" advertising on hobby sites online and in trade magazines, so that's another alternative, although it might be difficult to stand out in that crowd.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by raulus

You can always try it out and see how it goes.

There's an old military quote that "no plan survives contact with the enemy."

Rather than spend too much time engaged in excessive omphaloskepsis and theorizing on the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin, I'd be inclined to give a few things a try, and see if they stick. If it's not working, then you can always adjust and/or abandon your approach. Another part of the fun here is that it's likely to be very lumpy. You might land a big collection at one show, and then nothing for the next 3.

The economist/business part of me does think that you'll be better off if you can somehow differentiate yourself from the "other guys". Obviously there's a lot of competition out there in this space buying up collections. Your differentiation might just be geographic. Or you might be willing to travel further than others are willing to go. The table at a show approach could theoretically be a differentiating factor, especially if you're at shows where the "other guys" aren't showing up.

It does strike me that you'll need some way to find:

1) People with collections
2) Who are ready to sell, and sell now
3) Who are willing to sell at wholesale prices

I'll go out on a limb and guess that for the most part, the people who fall into this category are probably either heirs, people who haven't collected for a while, or old guys who are just ready to be done (or need the money fast), and willing to sacrifice on price in order to get it done fast.

The only question in my mind is whether those people are the kinds of people who go to shows, or whether you need some other approach to reach them. I see lots of those "other guys" advertising on hobby sites online and in trade magazines, so that's another alternative, although it might be difficult to stand out in that crowd.

+1, you'll swim much better by jumping into the pool than theorizing, the barrier to entry is super low to test your hypothesis. You'll gain experience and meet nice people if nothing else.

[savedfrommyspokes]

In the past, I have bought out collections from collectors, usually by word of mouth. Besides the time, I have found that with what I have paid, this approach is generally fairly profitable.

However, some of the quickest money I have ever made is by reviewing collections and connecting the collector to an AH that would best serve their needs. A recent referral I made netted the collector nearly $30k for their collection and they paid me $500 for my time to review the collection (an hour or so), provide my recommendation on selling and reaching out initially to an AH. From a time standpoint, the several times I have made an AH referral to a collector, this has been my best use of my time for the money. In other words, being the middleman is more profitable than being the end seller.

If you have seen the you tube channel "Chasing Cardboard" https://www.youtube.com/@CHASINGCARDBOARD/videos , you will see Ty has taken multiple approaches to handling the sales of purchased collections. As he has evolved, you can see that he is now more likely to make a referral/help consign a collection than to rent a storge unit for a collection purchase.

So, while buying a collection is far more exciting, reviewing a collection and making a referral is much more profitable based on time spent/money earned.

[swarmee]

I would say no, that a card show is not the best plan for your time, cost, and effort.
Newspaper ads (pennysaver), Local Facebook Buy Sell Trade groups, garage sales, etc would likely have a better ROI on scouting out collections.

[gonefishin]

I'm imagining me as an attendee and walking through the show checking out the tables, etc. What will I see when I walk up to your space? What will you have to capture my attention? What will your marketing/advertising be that will make me want to talk to you?

Now let' say I do stop. I own a large vintage collection. What offers do you have or presentation will you give that would make me want to sell my collection to you? What do you offer that an auction house doesn't? What would compel me take the next steps in selling you my collection?

I'm guessing the majority of people that would stop and have a serious conversation would be someone that has a horde of over produced product from the mid-80s through the mid-90s they are tired of storing.

Vintage collectors, for the most part, don't reveal to people they don't know or trust items they have in their collection. For good reason, people are out there scamming and taking advantage every day.

Competing with auction houses when it comes to selling vintage would be tough. Even if they're not an auction house, there are many reputable dealers out there soliciting constantly for vintage product - Dean's is just one example.

Try it small scale at first. Set up a table at the local swap meet, have a yard sale with purchasing vice selling.

Analysis the cost, and include everything. Remember, if you're purchasing it resale, it adds on. If you're purchasing it to collect, just keep in mind.

Just some random thoughts. Keep us posted on your decision and plans.

[Mike D.]

If you can funnel all the folks walking around with briefcases of graded cards at shows trying to sell them to dealers your way, maybe the other dealers will pay your table fee for you.

[BobC]

Bring a briefcase full of cash to the show, and have it sitting out in the open where people can see it, sitting next to a big sign saying you're looking to buy collections (but not right out on the front table where some people also may be thinking about grabbing it and running). That cash will attract potential people looking to sell.

Unfortunately, you'll probably be lucky to even get 1 out of every 20 people coming to talk to you about it that actually have anything worthwhile. You'll also probably want to be sure you only go to shows in states that allow concealed carry so you can protect yourself, and be sure you have a proper license to do so, as well as friends to accompany and back you up, and protect you. That should hopefully work, until the police find out you have such cash, and then figure out a way to pull you over after you leave the show for supposedly changing lanes without signaling, or not using a turn signal at an intersection, and they stop you and end up doing an illegal search and taking your cash as an asset forfeiture claim. if you're lucky, they won't take your car and impound it as well, but don't hold your breath.

[Belfast1933]

Ummm - thanks?

(I had a feeling this question might generate some interesting replies - Net54 never disappoints)

[Volod]

Originally Posted by BobC

... if you're lucky, they won't take your car and impound it as well, but don't hold your breath.

Good one, Bob.

[ejstel]

At many shows there are also many local people looking to sell cards...not the briefcase guys - they are your competition ( maybe not competition but they are looking to sell Kevin Durant cards at the top price- for which you should not even want buy). You are looking to buy (legends) at 70% of book. Start w a small show, like 40-50 tabled. Pay the 50 to 100 for a table- bring a nice sign that reads- buying at 70% book - best deals get my money....and buy what you collect. Buying $300 on cards at 30% off or more covers the expense of your table.

...and who knows what will walk up to your table. You can also sell what you want to move at your table.

.what you should buy is a different convo depending if you are collecting or looking to make a profit/income.


....just my 2 cents

Ed

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

[Belfast1933]

Originally Posted by ejstel

At many shows there are also many local people looking to sell cards...not the briefcase guys - they are your competition ( maybe not competition but they are looking to sell Kevin Durant cards at the top price- for which you should not even want buy). You are looking to buy (legends) at 70% of book. Start w a small show, like 40-50 tabled. Pay the 50 to 100 for a table- bring a nice sign that reads- buying at 70% book - best deals get my money....and buy what you collect. Buying $300 on cards at 30% off or more covers the expense of your table.

...and who knows what will walk up to your table. You can also sell what you want to move at your table.

.what you should buy is a different convo depending if you are collecting or looking to make a profit/income.


....just my 2 cents

Ed

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

Thanks Ed… this sounds more like my speed and style. I went to a local show yesterday and it was way more crowded than I expected. And as you say, you never know what might walk up and present itself.

(By the way, not that it matters much, but I came up with a name for my little card business. Very GROSS vintage baseball cards - with a last name like mine, you only have so many options! So I opt to lean into it!

Thx again, all, for the many ideas… I’ll report back soon to share my experiences.

Jeff Gross

[Exhibitman]

Sorry to pee in the Cheerios, but this situation reminds me of cold calls from stock brokers that I get all the time at the office and my response to it: if it was that easy why would you be calling me to buy 100 shares of stock?

Finds are finds because they are rare. You have to really luck out to find a horde of T206s, and they are much more likely to be found by someone who knows someone who is affiliated with an auctioneer or dealer, aka a warm referral.

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...oldin-auction/

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...d-judge-cards/

What is being suggested here is a business model that is at least 20 years out of date. Rosen had a fit over the entry door to the IX Center but his act had been in decline for a long time before that. Everyone set up at a show is looking to buy and everyone has wads of cash. Adopting Rosen's shtick won't cut it. By the time someone walks into a show, they have already done their homework on where to sell cards. The cost of obtaining information has fallen and the ease with which it can be obtained has risen to such an extent that no proverbial widow or orphan is going to walk into a show and hand you a shoebox of 1952 Topps Mantles. It just doesn't happen. Most of the true collection buyers are mobile and advertise heavily online, because a search engine is the first stop for nearly everyone looking to sell off cards they found. I know several of these very successful dealers and they all have web sites, large eBay presences, and travel extensively to go to the cards. I also know a few whose M.O. is to hit every estate sale, miscellaneous auction and flea market. They grab whatever they can find opportunistically, and they do it consistently and pretty much full time. The rest of the collections go to auctioneers because they too have a heavy advertising presence and will travel with big money in hand.

What you are more likely to get as walk-ups at shows are modest groups of lesser cards that can be profitable provided you make a buy at the right price point, but that will not make you a fortune and will not cover the cost of a bare table. You also cannot pay 70% of market on 99% of stuff, unless your plan is to lose money and go broke. Sure, you can do it with a 1952 T Mantle but that is not the walk-in, for the reasons listed above.

You would be better off starting with Craig's List, flea market calendars and local estate sale listings than trying to wade into a room of competitors at a local card show. Try to intercept the opportunities before they get to the door of the show. If you want to use a show, don't buy a table and wait. Hit the parking lot and entrance areas instead before the collectors get in the door.

I am working on a column about this; should be up in a week or two.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Sorry to pee in the Cheerios, but this situation reminds me of cold calls from stock brokers that I get all the time at the office and my response to it: if it was that easy why would you be calling me to buy 100 shares of stock?

Finds are finds because they are rare. You have to really luck out to find a horde of T206s, and they are much more likely to be found by someone who knows someone who is affiliated with an auctioneer or dealer, aka a warm referral.

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...oldin-auction/

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...d-judge-cards/

What is being suggested here is a business model that is at least 20 years out of date. Rosen had a fit over the entry door to the IX Center but his act had been in decline for a long time before that. Everyone set up at a show is looking to buy and everyone has wads of cash. Adopting Rosen's shtick won't cut it. By the time someone walks into a show, they have already done their homework on where to sell cards. The cost of obtaining information has fallen and the ease with which it can be obtained has risen to such an extent that no proverbial widow or orphan is going to walk into a show and hand you a shoebox of 1952 Topps Mantles. It just doesn't happen. Most of the true collection buyers are mobile and advertise heavily online, because a search engine is the first stop for nearly everyone looking to sell off cards they found. I know several of these very successful dealers and they all have web sites, large eBay presences, and travel extensively to go to the cards. I also know a few whose M.O. is to hit every estate sale, miscellaneous auction and flea market. They grab whatever they can find opportunistically, and they do it consistently and pretty much full time. The rest of the collections go to auctioneers because they too have a heavy advertising presence and will travel with big money in hand.

What you are more likely to get as walk-ups at shows are modest groups of lesser cards that can be profitable provided you make a buy at the right price point, but that will not make you a fortune and will not cover the cost of a bare table. You also cannot pay 70% of market on 99% of stuff, unless your plan is to lose money and go broke. Sure, you can do it with a 1952 T Mantle but that is not the walk-in, for the reasons listed above.

You would be better off starting with Craig's List, flea market calendars and local estate sale listings than trying to wade into a room of competitors at a local card show. Try to intercept the opportunities before they get to the door of the show. If you want to use a show, don't buy a table and wait. Hit the parking lot and entrance areas instead before the collectors get in the door.

I am working on a column about this; should be up in a week or two.

Many people, like myself, were posting in response to the OP's original question about doing something at a local card show, and if it would be worthwhile to possibly getting more activity in buying collections. My comment about showing a lot of cash was, as I clearly stated in post #13, "basically taking a PAGE right out of the Mr. Mint bible of how to do business". I never stated or intended for it to be an endorsement or suggestion for someone repeating everything Rosen once did, but that is what you seem to be implying. The Rosen stories that followed were merely to explain and discuss more of what Rosen was known for, and not necessarily in a complimentary way. Meanwhile, as you very clearly stated above, "What is being suggested here is a business model that is at least 20 years out of date." Please explain to me and everyone else how suggesting someone take a single page/idea out of a prior person's sales tactics is the same as adopting their entire business model? You appear to have once again focused on a single statement, and blown it up and twisted it to support your narrative and contrasting point.

Also, I understand the OP did ask a follow-up question about additional information and advice regarding further efforts to advance and enhance their ability to find and acquire collections. And you gave some great advice, especially in regards to long-term sustained buying efforts they could then employ. But again, that was not the OP's initial and main question. And though your response was pertinent, it also does not allow and give you the right to then summarily dismiss and/or demean what others had to say that actually was in regard to the OPs original, main question, which had to do with gaining attention from potential sellers at a local card show. Quite honestly, someone flashing cash at a local card show will create a buzz and talk, and people coming to check it out. That is exactly what the OP wanted, people coming to him. Doesn't matter if those coming by had knowledge of Rosen or not. Those that did know of Rosen would likely stop by anyway to see what the OP was all about, and if he was possibly trying to copy Rosen, and if so, out of curiosity look to see how close he was to what Rosen did. Meanwhile, those unaware of who Rosen was would come by because they heard of a guy offering potentially large amounts of cash for cards, and want to see how they could get their hands on some of it. I already warned the OP as well that he would likely have a very low percentage of potential sellers actually offering anything he would really want, but it would get his name out there and interest in what he was doing. That is also why I mentioned his being sure to have a stack of business cards to pass out as well. The chances of him then attending future shows, where some people now having heard of him may then show up with cards/collections to possibly sell after all, and specifically look for him to sell to, are likely greatly increased.

No one ever said the OP should adopt Rosen's entire shtick. Also, just because a sales technique may be old, it doesn't mean that it won't still work. The advertising industry has been employing the same basic techniques and tactics, as well as bringing some back after lapses, since advertising first became a thing. People really got tired of Rosen for his demeanor and attitude, not for his having handfuls of cash as a mere prop. I merely suggested the OP use one of Rosen's props to hopefully help find sellers, not his bombastic attitude. Your ability to misinterpret and twist what others say is truly astounding at times.

Your comments about maybe trying to catch sellers in the parking lot or just outside the shows make some sense as well, but think about it a little from the potential sellers standpoint. Some stranger you never met before approaches you in a parking lot and wants to see your valuable cards to supposedly buy them. I don't know about you, but the first thing that pops into my mind is, who is this a$$hole, and is this guy really just trying to see if he can get me alone and then rob me. Though the sidewalk or parking lot is still in a public place, it is a hell of a lot different than being inside a hall or location with a lot of people all around, and the dealers being known and registered with whoever is running the show. Huge difference, wouldn't you agree?

And you comment, "By the time someone walks into a show, they have already done their homework on where to sell cards." I can confirm is not 100% accurate. I remember a few years ago at the Strongsville Collectors Show, a friend of mine came up to me and asked if I could help out someone else he knew. Turns out his friend, who worked at a local card store, was helping out the REA reps in their booth at the show. And out of the clear blue sky, a couple had come up to them looking to see about selling some cards the husband had found buried in the pages of a book he inherited from a recently passed Uncle I believe. Thing was they were 8 OJ cards, and neither the REA people, nor the local guy helping them out, really knew what the heck they were, or even more importantly, what they might be worth. The cards were in great overall shape, and included 7 commons, and a Delahanty rookie! The couple didn't know what they were, and had brought them up to the show inside a Ziploc bag. They had no idea what they were doing and had heard from some friend of theirs who apparently had head of the Strongsville show, and who had suggested they come to the show to ask around to see what they might be worth and how best to go about maybe selling them. They were walking around and saw the REA signs and how they auctioned off stuff for people, so started talking to them. When I got to the REA booth and saw the REA rep just thumbing through and manhandling the OJ cards without any penny sleeves or other protective holders, I nearly threw up. I couldn't believe the d*ckhead from REA and the local card shop guy could both be that stupid, but then again, the local card sharp guy actually had asked our mutual friend if he knew anything about these OJ cards, and that is when he got me involved. The REA people wouldn't dare go to one of the other dealers at the show, probably for fear they would offer to buy the items from the people straight out. Heck, if I remember correctly, I think Dan McKee was set up only a couple tables away. Anyway, I talked to the couple and told them the REA guy should not be handling the cards so roughly, especially with his bare hands and no protection for the cards. I then admonished the REA rep for not knowing any better either, and finally got him to put the cards down and explained that if he had to handle them, to only pick them up on the sides/edges. I then talked with the couple, in front of the REA rep and the local card guy, and explained what the cards were and how valuable they could be. I further explained how condition could play a big factor, and the manhandling of the cards should not be allowed. I also advised them to maybe not just talk to REA, right in front of the REA rep, and to possibly speak with other AHs as well about consigning the cards. I mentioned how AHs normally try to charge potential consigners like them a seller's commission that could be upwards of 20%, and that based on the items they had and their condition, they could very easily get a discounted seller's commission, if charged any at all, from other AHs. I then excused myself and went to a close by dealer's table and bought a pack of penny sleeves, and quickly returned to put the 8 OJ cards in them so they would have at least some protection. Meanwhile, the local card guy had run off to find our mutual friend and brought him back to then drag me off on some made up excuse. After the mutual friend got me away, he explained I was screwing up the guy's commission and they, the local card guy and REA rep, didn't want me around. No comment on what I thought of the REA rep and local card guy, I was merely concerned about them taking advantage of unsuspecting couple for their own greed and gain. In deference to my friend, I stayed away, but did approach the couple as they eventually walked away from the REA booth, and proceeded to tell them everything about what the REA people were trying to pull. In my brief absence, the REA rep apparently finally got on the phone with someone back at their main office who actually knew about OJ cards. The couple thanked me very much, and said they did decide to leave the cards with REA for consignment after all, after getting a reduced 5% only seller's commission. So I wished the couple luck and said goodbye. I kept an eye out and saw the cards finally ended up in one of REA's auctions about maybe 3-4 months later. REA had had them graded by SGC, and if memory serves, the 7 commons all got decent mid-range grades, like 4-5s, and maybe even a 6, don't remember exactly. Surprisingly to me though, the Delahanty only got something like a 1 or 2. I remembered the 8 cards all being of similar condition and with great image clarity, so not sure why or how just that Delahanty ended up being downgraded so much. Still, the group ended up selling for around $10K total if I remember correctly. So, I was very pleased to discover I saved the extremely nice, and completely unknowing couple, about $1,500.

And as far as being over the top, wonderful links and stories you posted to, but I don't think the OP was necessarily expecting any collection finds like those to suddenly appear in front of him. Instead, they went to two big-time, well-known, operators in the hobby who do extensive advertising and such to get their names out there. Not really so unlike what Rosen was doing years before after all. I mean, doesn't Goldin have some kind of rap song about him out there now, and didn't he do things like open thousands of dollars worth of packs with Drake online for publicity, and other crap like that? It is all just hype and advertising, so what is really the difference between what he does and what Rosen did? Oh, and doesn't Goldin have his own Netflix show coming out in the not too distant future also? I sincerely hope that if they are going to create a "true" reality show about Goldin, that they actually go back and show the "complete" "true" reality. There's an old saying that a leopard doesn't easily change its spots. So true, so true!

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...tail&FORM=VIRE

And Adam, why does it seem like a lot of your posts now just end up being advertisements for your own blog? I always thought the main idea/purpose of Net54 was to provide for those in the hobby, especially and mainly collectors, to have a place where they could come to freely share information among themselves regarding the hobby, their collections, and collecting activities and goals. I assume that by starting your own blog, one of your intentions is to eventually be able to generate some revenue from it? If so, that seems to me to be a bit contrary to the main idea behind the Net54 forum of freely sharing info among ourselves. I am in no way, shape, or form trying to put anyone down or dismiss anyone's ideas or goals. Just making some simple observations based on what little I do know. I think it is sometimes very important to possibly understand the context behind where people often come from in their comments and statements, and thus allow others to maybe better understand the real "true" reasons they may be saying or acting they do.

And don't worry about responding. I know how you like to invoke the TLDR commentary on occasion.

[Exhibitman]

Bob, I am speaking from experience taking tables at card shows and attending hundreds of them as a patron, and even running a few of them. With that many dealers in the room, it is a seller's market unless you are trying to move junk. I set up at the first large show in LA in years this past summer and even though the place was mobbed, the walk-ins were in line with what I stated: mostly crap, with a smattering of decent items in there.

I wasn't aiming at your prior posts; several other members posted similar misgivings and comments regarding the best routes to actually buying stuff besides sitting at a show.

With regard to the walk-ins' knowledge level, I stand by my view. The occasional clueless walk-in happens but is a rarity, especially as compared to the past.

My friends who actually do this for a living set up at shows but do far more buying through web presence, referrals and leg work than via walk-ups. it just isn't an efficient paradigm.

As for outside the show buys, maybe you have not waited in line to get into a show, but it is not unusual to see someone working the line before a show opens. If someone is there to sell, getting that first shot is a viable strategy. I got one of the best deals of my life doing that in the 1990s.

Am i saying that the OP shouldn't try it? Of course not. How he spends his time is his choice.

As for content of my post, I mentioned my blog in passing (and it is free, so no monetizing there; I like to pontificate there rather than here because I can cuss freely and editorialize as snarky as I want). Most of the post was devoted to offering some concrete examples and suggestions for what it takes in this tech-savvy age to effectively promote a card business, I even went to the trouble of posting links to articles about finds that illustrate how major hobby-fresh strikes go to those with strong online presences and networks of referrals, not people who sit at a local show.

One last point: while you may pat yourself on the back for telling the walk-in to "maybe not just talk to REA, right in front of the REA rep", if you'd done that to me at a show I would have asked the promoter to throw you out. It is called "intentional interference with prospective advantage" and it is actually grounds for a lawsuit. People who set up at shows pay substantial sums to transact and walking up and suggesting that people dealing with them go elsewhere is tortious interference and bad card show etiquette, IMO. How would you feel if you were set up and some know it all came over and started telling your customers to go elsewhere? Not cool. As Guido the Killer Pimp said: