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Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Postwar Sportscard Forums > Postwar Baseball Cards Forum (Pre-1980)

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  #1  
Old 07-29-2019, 08:16 PM
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swarmee swarmee is offline
J0hn Raff3rty
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Default 1973 Topps Gaps in Border - PSA recognizes 3. How many more?

Noticed in the board bulk submission Bobby put on, someone just got back a 1973 Topps card with "Gap in Border" variation. Looks like they have three as part of their recognized variations:
#20 Stan Bahnsen
#31 Buddy Bell
#504 Earl Williams

I know I've found one or two more and put them in the Show me your print variations thread, but figured it might be worth it to catalog it better in a separate thread. This should be for real gaps, not just white fisheye print defects over the border. I would expect that PSA would add these since they already have 3 in their set checklist of the same type.

#417 Scipio Spinks has both a top border gap variation, and one with a gap on all three sides.

Which ones do you know of?
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  #2  
Old 07-29-2019, 09:19 PM
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m!ke kn@z@v!c
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Buddy Bell
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  #3  
Old 07-30-2019, 09:53 AM
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Other than the Stan Bahnsen and the Buddy Bell which are side by side on a first series sheet, all of the other ones are on the two fourth series sheets. Each of the two sheets from the fourth series has eleven consecutive cards in a horizontal row with gaps in the border for a total of twenty two cards. One row is Auerbach, Kennedy, McAndrew, R. Morales, Pattin, McAnally, Giants team, Howarth, Spinks, Ozark, Reuschel. The other eleven cards are on a different fourth series sheet, Simpson, E. Williams, G. Brown, Tovar, Granger, Thompson, Fregosi, G. Perry, Marichal, Freehan, McDowell.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 73 auerbach.jpg (21.1 KB, 319 views)
File Type: jpg 73 kennedy.jpg (21.2 KB, 324 views)
File Type: jpg 1973 mcandrew.jpg (21.0 KB, 323 views)
File Type: jpg 73 morales.jpg (21.0 KB, 322 views)
File Type: jpg 73 pattin.jpg (20.6 KB, 320 views)
File Type: jpg 73 mcanally.jpg (20.6 KB, 318 views)
File Type: jpg 73 giants.jpg (20.8 KB, 326 views)
File Type: jpg 1973 howarth.jpg (20.6 KB, 323 views)
File Type: jpg 73 spinks.jpg (20.0 KB, 311 views)
File Type: jpg 1973 ozark.jpg (19.9 KB, 317 views)
File Type: jpg 73 reuschel.jpg (20.3 KB, 315 views)
File Type: jpg 73 sheet.jpg (84.5 KB, 223 views)

Last edited by Cliff Bowman; 08-01-2019 at 08:37 AM. Reason: Correction
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  #4  
Old 07-30-2019, 09:59 AM
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Cliff Bowman Cliff Bowman is offline
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Here are the eleven from the other fourth series sheet. ETA, found a scan that shows the eleven cards in a row along with the LaRoche, O. Brown, and Tatum also in a horizontal row consecutively.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 73 simpson.jpg (20.2 KB, 317 views)
File Type: jpg 73 williams.jpg (19.6 KB, 221 views)
File Type: jpg 73 brown.jpg (20.1 KB, 225 views)
File Type: jpg 73 tovar.jpg (20.1 KB, 222 views)
File Type: jpg 73 granger.jpg (19.8 KB, 223 views)
File Type: jpg 1973 thompson.jpg (20.3 KB, 227 views)
File Type: jpg 73 fregosi.jpg (20.4 KB, 220 views)
File Type: jpg 73 perry.jpg (20.5 KB, 222 views)
File Type: jpg 73 marichal.jpg (20.4 KB, 217 views)
File Type: jpg 73 freehan.jpg (20.3 KB, 217 views)
File Type: jpg 73 mcdowell.jpg (20.6 KB, 216 views)
File Type: jpg 1973-topps-baseball-uncut-sheet-66_1_0b39ac65d03f6b7f5384f1713089929a.jpg (51.1 KB, 224 views)

Last edited by Cliff Bowman; 08-01-2019 at 08:29 AM. Reason: Added scan
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  #5  
Old 07-30-2019, 10:08 AM
ALR-bishop ALR-bishop is offline
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Like many variant collectors I had a lot of interaction with Bob Lemke about listings in the Standard Catalog. At one point he told me he thought listing the gap defects as variations was a mistake since they were showing up in so many sets, even the 52 set, and he came to view them as just recurring print defects. He was leaning toward removing some listings that did not meet the definition of a change intentionally made by the manufacturer. But the 3 you mention are still in the 2014 edition, which is the newest one I have. And for my part I collect any recurring differences

On Bahnsen the gap can be small or noticeably larger, and Bahnsen's uniform can be white or blueish

I have the following with gaps or border irregularities

Bahnsen 20
Bell 31
Schueler 169
Jenkins 180
Spinks 417, with as you note several versions
Walter Johnson 418
Phillies Coaches 486
Williams 504
Brown 526
Johnson 590

I do not currently have scans of these but can make them if needed

Never mind, just saw Cliff's posts :-)

Last edited by ALR-bishop; 07-30-2019 at 10:11 AM.
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  #6  
Old 07-30-2019, 10:30 AM
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Cliff Bowman Cliff Bowman is offline
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There are other related print flaws from those two 1973 fourth series sheets, Walter Johnson and Norm Cash are side by side on a sheet and are missing some of the black border, Ollie Brown is missing much of the black border in the lower left corner, Dan Frisella is missing some black border in the lower left corner, Ken Tatum and Dave LaRoche are missing some of their pitcher position player, and Gene Tenace is missing a small slice of the black border in the lower left corner. I believe PSA no longer recognizes any of these including the Bahnsen, Bell, and Williams, and I remember Bob Lemke said years ago that the SCD would no longer list them. I agree with that, these are in no way variations and are only print flaws. ETA, I didn't see Al's post before I posted this in which he already posted some of the same information.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 73 johnson cash.jpg (77.9 KB, 315 views)
File Type: jpg 73 o brown.jpg (20.3 KB, 313 views)
File Type: jpg 73 frisella.jpg (19.9 KB, 311 views)
File Type: jpg 73 tatum.jpg (19.9 KB, 307 views)
File Type: jpg 73 laroche.jpg (20.0 KB, 306 views)
File Type: jpg 73 tenace.jpg (19.6 KB, 305 views)

Last edited by Cliff Bowman; 07-30-2019 at 10:36 AM.
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  #7  
Old 07-30-2019, 11:10 AM
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I think PSA should not note them since they are too numerous and occur in many different sets. I thought the same when they recognized the 61 Fairly with a smudge of green in the baseball on the back, a defect that occurs in other 61 cards. But, having said that I do collect them

I admire the way Cliff runs down the relationships among recurring print defects by analyzing their positions on the sheets they came from. He has been extremely helpful to me in running down variants that I was unaware of due to my ad hoc approach to collecting them, that is I know one when when I see one
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  #8  
Old 07-30-2019, 01:42 PM
chalupacollects chalupacollects is offline
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Is there any premium in value for the variants?
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  #9  
Old 07-30-2019, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chalupacollects View Post
Is there any premium in value for the variants?
There is on the ones that PSA recognized on the slabs . Sellers used to have them on eBay for $5 or so and they would eventually sell, but I don’t see them much on eBay anymore.
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  #10  
Old 07-30-2019, 02:08 PM
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Well, looks like most or all are already known. Thanks for the checklist of them. Have you tried getting PSA to add them to the list of variations? Because if three in the set have the same issue, it would seem obvious to discriminate all of them for the Master Set.
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  #11  
Old 07-30-2019, 03:08 PM
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John---the 3 PSA recognizes have been in the Standard Catalog for years and my guess is that is why PSA recognized them. But getting more added to the Catalog now is a dead end ( and Lemke at least thought about taking them out himself). If PSA expands the border gap cards they recognize for 1973, should they start recognizing them for all the other sets ? There are bunches of them.

I do not really care and collect them either way, but the path to getting new variations recognized in the hobby today is uncertain, even if there is an argument they qualify as true variations as opposed to recurring print defects. The 52 House discussed in another thread is a good example.

Plus there just is no definition or agreement in the hobby over what constitutes a variation that should be recognized

Since I am an ungraded collector I have no sway with PSA, and most Registry collectors I know are not clamoring for more variations to master or super sets.

Most if not all the gap cards Cliff posted can be found on ebay or COMC right now, and with no premium. Even when a premium is asked, the same card can usually be found without one

Last edited by ALR-bishop; 07-30-2019 at 03:13 PM.
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  #12  
Old 07-30-2019, 03:18 PM
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Yeah, it's expanding a rabbit hole they've already opened. Here's the 1969 Topps Nolan Ryan.

1969 Topps - [Base] #533 - Nolan Ryan
Courtesy of COMC.com

It's up to them, just seems bizarre that they're only recognizing the 3 in the same set, when there are 25 or so from just 1973.

Registry guys who want to improve their set ranking could buy them and get them added, then hold the higher positions in the interim while everyone else catches up.
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  #13  
Old 08-05-2020, 08:47 PM
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Awesome post............very informative and helps a lot as I attempt to put a master set together.
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  #14  
Old 08-06-2020, 08:38 AM
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John---welcome, and good luck on the master set. But what would you consider a complete master set for 1973 ?

Last edited by ALR-bishop; 08-06-2020 at 08:38 AM.
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  #15  
Old 08-06-2020, 11:13 AM
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Hi Al, From my perspective a master set includes all known variations. For example on the 73 set #449 Spahn's ear pointed and Spahn's ear round. I would also include the boarder break cards. Now I know there are varying opinions on what would be considered a variation verses a printing flaw. For me miss cut or cards that have various printing blotches are not included. John
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  #16  
Old 08-06-2020, 01:07 PM
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New compilation that disregards recurring print defects

https://baseballcardvariationsguideb...973-toppsw.pdf

https://baseballcardvariationsguideb...25/1973-topps/
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  #17  
Old 08-06-2020, 07:15 PM
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Very cool Al..........Let me check these with my current list and see what I can find. After checking I added 6 manager cards with the shade variances, I had all the others. I think the hardest ones to find will be the Kaline versions (bandage). Also some the manager variations (light and dark) are real hard to tell the difference. I now have to go to the set to see what version I have on the ones I added.

Last edited by johnlenhardt; 08-06-2020 at 08:16 PM.
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  #18  
Old 08-06-2020, 11:15 PM
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Here's a graphic I created for the 1973 Dick Williams variations. The top row shows the cards with full ears, and the bottom row with missing ears...

1973williams179.jpg
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Old 08-07-2020, 11:35 AM
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Excellent visual example......From your picks it maybe easier to tell the difference in the Williams jersey. I was just looking on ebay and clearly see the difference. Ear/no ear not a problem.
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  #20  
Old 08-07-2020, 10:17 PM
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The 1973 set (probably went through 20k cards over the years) is my favorite to collect outside if the 1969 set (rare white letters, super rare white letters (pirates rookies), reoccurring print variations, non-reoccurring variations and different pics....

The 1973 set is quietly right up there with variations...maybe because printing was split between individual series and all card release. Not sure...but to the earlier messages....some of the line breaks are more rare than others (not sure why). Many cards with print vars also in the set...and the Kaline; with a band-aid=classic once in an era type stuff!

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Old 08-08-2020, 05:18 AM
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Hi Al, is the Schueler 169 the standard gap or something else? I could not find example.
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