Jsa and psa/dna

[EYECOLLECTVINTAGE]

So I just spent about the last 8 hours reading article after article on PSA/DNA and JSA mistakes as well as articles from ESPN and 20/20 that 80% of autographs sold in USA are forgeries. HOW can anyone buy signatures now and be confident they are real regardless of a COA etc. Are there any guys out there that are good that don't have these HUGE companies but have great reputations?

Thanks

[egri]

Buying from trustworthy sellers is a good starting point. The sellers you see on our BST threads are trustworthy, as are the other members that I've bought from in the past. Every now and then there's a knucklehead (Mr. Bartiromo, we await the activation of your stealth accounts that will "spam the hell out of the boards") but as a rule, they're good guys. Also, developing your own eye to tell what is good and what is forged will help give you peace of mind. I'm trying to do that as I build my project; it takes time, and it's a WIP, but it's getting there. Hope this helps.

[EYECOLLECTVINTAGE]

Originally Posted by egri

Buying from trustworthy sellers is a good starting point. The sellers you see on our BST threads are trustworthy, as are the other members that I've bought from in the past. Every now and then there's a knucklehead (Mr. Bartiromo, we await the activation of your stealth accounts that will "spam the hell out of the boards") but as a rule, they're good guys. Also, developing your own eye to tell what is good and what is forged will help give you peace of mind. I'm trying to do that as I build my project; it takes time, and it's a WIP, but it's getting there. Hope this helps.

Thanks a lot. Good Luck

[mighty bombjack]

Those two alphabet companies rule out blatant fakes and are right most of the time, but they make plenty of mistakes as well, some very high profile. Think of them more as marketing tools than authenticators, good for some level of peace of mind but more valuable for resale value IMO.

As has been said here many times, research is a big part of this and should be enjoyable (i.e., part of the hobby beyond owning pieces of history). If what you read about the alphabets disturbs you and you are looking for absolute certainty, I would seek a different hobby.

[mighty bombjack]

And remember this: when it comes to autographs of long deceased people, all we have are opinions and opinions of those giving opinions. You have to research the items but also know who is judging authenticity and for what purpose. Reading certain websites that pick apart the alphabets (coughcoughhaulsofshamecough) can be fascinating and great education, but even those websites are agenda driven and aren't right 100% of the time (especially when, like the alphabets themselves, they aren't naming the authenticators who may have deemed an autograph 'bad'; like many in this hobby, they may be going with the expert who's telling them what they want to hear).

[hawaiian bam bam]

i think we are getting to apoint in this hobby where we will have just two options, either get it ourselves in person or buy factory certified pack pulled autographs. (if that is an option for what you collect)

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by hawaiian bam bam

i think we are getting to apoint in this hobby where we will have just two options, either get it ourselves in person or buy factory certified pack pulled autographs. (if that is an option for what you collect)

Again, if absolute certainty is what you want, than these are good alternatives (and even a few pack-pulled cards have been called into question)

[hawaiian bam bam]

true, but i think the card manufacturers might be alot more likely to be authenticated right versus TPAs..

THIS is the ONLY reason i dont collect factory certified autographs any more!

Someone please tell me that this is NOT the norm and maybe just someones storing or displaying of this card in sunlight that caused this card to fade so bad (and not the actual sharpie)

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by hawaiian bam bam

true, but i think the card manufacturers might be alot more likely to be authenticated right versus TPAs..

THIS is the ONLY reason i dont collect factory certified autographs any more!



Someone please tell me that this is NOT the norm and maybe just someones storing or displaying of this card in sunlight that caused this card to fade so bad (and not the actual sharpie)

Ugh! That sucks man. Is it your card?

It is not the norm in general or for that set in particular. I happen to have that complete set (2002 Topps Finest Moments) because I was the Editor that chose the photos for it!

I worked at Topps in 2001-2002

[hawaiian bam bam]

no, its not my card, just one i saw while looking for cards on ebay. does topps use cheap sharpies? because i swear that 99.9% of the factory certified autographs i had from topps faded over time, the blue sharpie turned into a grey purplish color. i kept them out of the light and stored in the dark and the ink turned this faded grey/purplish color? what caused that?

[egri]

I have a handful of 2007 Topps Heritage autographs, and they're just as bold as when I pulled them. From looking at the Larsen, my guess is one of its previous owners (LCS, maybe?) stored it under a fluorescent light, or somewhere exposed to direct sunlight.

[hawaiian bam bam]

I agree with you, however mine were stored out of sunlight and still faded! so the issue might be the person who owned the card before me might have stored it under light. i remember the card shows of th 80's and 90's where there were dozens of tables with certified autographs sitting out in the light for hours and hours! or cards shops that had autographs in cases in sunlight for months and months.

after seeing the high percentage of fakes out there, im thinking certified factory autographs(pack pulled) might be as close to being real as we are going to get.

[mighty bombjack]

If memory serves, Topps used and still uses Staedtler pens, which are pretty nice, but I do see some fading, especially on the higher-tech surfaces (Chrome or whatever).

Here is my Larsen from that set, scanned minutes ago. It does seem a bit more faded than I remember.



NOTE: I scanned the Schmidt because I have seen a few copies of that with autographs similar to the Larsen you posted. Mine is still fairly strong. I also wanted to share the story below...


STORY: As I mentioned, I was the editor for this set, which means I chose the photos and approved the sheets of cards before they went to the printer. I made a few errors. See the error there?

One day maybe a month after these were finalized, I got a call from one of the player reps telling me that I screwed up and that Mike Schmidt is pissed off and refuses to sign his cards because of the REVERSE NEGATIVE. Man, he had me for a bit, thinking my multiple managers were gonna let me hear it all day. He only let me sweat it a bit before telling me that Schmidt thought it was funny and actually kind of cool. I agree.

[hawaiian bam bam]

thank you for the info and pics. I swear that for years and years i thought that my sharpie autographs have faded or were beginning to fade, i couldnt prove it or pinpoint exactly the fading, but just new somehow they didnt look like when i either bought them or got them in packs. now that your saying that your noticing fading too, i dont feel like im going crazy and the only one that has this fading problem! wouldnt that be something if lets say 15-20 years the hobby wakes up and realizes all these sharpie autographs fade over time? i dont think its just the cards, i think its the actual blue ink used. what do you think causes this fading?

[Lordstan]

To the OP,
I am one who has been very critical of the TPAs in the autograph world. While I agree that they get the majority of stuff right, many of the mistakes they have made are really big ones that defy logic, IMHO. When taken in the correct way, I think they do serve a purpose for giving an opinion. My problem has always been that people take them as the end all be all on auto because they sell themselves as experts. Plus they charge based on the autograph value and not the difficulty of the authentication. IMO, If it was about quality of work, the time it takes to do an authentication would the price varying factor. Many of the big name autos can be given a "yes" or "no" in seconds, once you know what you are looking for, but I would be willing to bet only a couple people on the totality of this board know what a Clancy Smyres auto looks like. I don't

The best way to ensure the highest likelihood of buying real autos comes in 6 easy steps.

1) Educate yourself on the autos you wish to buy.
2) Educate yourself on the autos you wish to buy.
3) Educate yourself on the autos you wish to buy.

4) Find a select group of well established/reliable dealers. Besides knowledge, perhaps the most important thing to look for is do they stand behind their items. The reality is that every auto collector has, at one time, perhaps more than once, purchased or sold an auto that was not real. Of course, for most of us, it's just a mistake. IMHO, The real test of a good dealer is will they take something back if it is later shown to be fake. Many out there will get something certed by PSA and then issue the no refund deal. I think that someone who is confident in their skills will rely on their own expertise, not a TPA.

5) Find a group of friends/colleague collectors who you trust.. These people should be able to tell you their truthful opinion without you getting pissed at them. Sometimes we all need that slap across the back of the head to reality orient us. Additionally these will be the people who will share their knowledge with you openly. As you can see, many people are tight lipped about specific things they look for in each auto. A lot do this, because scammers read Net54 as well, and no one wants to give them any help

6) Become a skeptic. One of the biggest issues I see is that people want the items to be real so much to feed their obsession that they lose objectivity. If it's too good to be true, it probably isn't.

Autos can be a lot of fun, but they are also a lot of work. Please don't "invest" your hard earned money expecting a big return before you have an idea what you are looking at.

Regarding factory certed autos... I guess you guys haven't heard about the scandals where one of the companies send a player a few hundred cards and he gave some to different family members to sign. LOL

Best,
M@rk V3l@rd3

[hawaiian bam bam]

the only story i heard was don zimmer was having his wife sign his "certified: autos. are thee other stories? i would like to know before i shell out any money on "factory certified"; autos, thanks

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by hawaiian bam bam

the only story i heard was don zimmer was having his wife sign his "certified: autos. are thee other stories? i would like to know before i shell out any money on "factory certified"; autos, thanks

Yes. There are other stories. I have heard them in all different sports, not just baseball. This has led to some of the companies now wanting an employee witness the cards being signed. I don't know which though.

Remember rules number 1 through 3. You still need to educate yourself as to what the auto should look like. There are no guarantees, even with factory certified. Plus, if you only buy those, you will limit yourself pretty greatly in what autos you will own.

[SikSyko]

Originally Posted by hawaiian bam bam

the only story i heard was don zimmer was having his wife sign his "certified: autos. are thee other stories? i would like to know before i shell out any money on "factory certified"; autos, thanks

I've had a hockey player tell me that he did not sign all his cards. A few football players were busted having others sign.

[mighty bombjack]

When I worked there (again, 2001-2), Topps was serious about having a rep present at all signings. I myself was sent to sit with Steve Garvey, Orlando Cepeda, and Chris Childress while they signed 2000 cards each. This was a big part of the player reps' jobs. One of those reps did tell me story of a (then) recent football draftee who had his friend signing his Fleer cards while the rep watched him sign the Topps cards!

I don't know if Topps still does this (or even pays it lip service). It would certainly be an easy cost to cut (so I'm guessing Eisner's group did so when they took over).

[doug.goodman]

I have spent the last 32 years working for people who are are asked for their autographs as part of daily life. There is only one of them who I know for a fact has never had somebody else sign an item for him. That same person also has two completely different signatures, one for business (pretty much illegible), and one for fans (quite readable).

Generally speaking, from my experience, the more famous the person, the better the chance that somebody they are associated with is capable of signing their signature. And, if somebody they are associated with is capable of signing their signature, then that person has done so, and will continue to.

I define "famous" as somebody who is asked for their autograph while walking thru an airport, or up the street. These days, a "selfie" is actually far more requested than an autograph.

There are people who I have worked with who sign less of their own autographs than their associates do. I would bet that there are situations where the people who get paid for their opinions would pass the associate's autograph but flag the famous person's autograph.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by egri

Buying from trustworthy sellers is a good starting point. The sellers you see on our BST threads are trustworthy, as are the other members that I've bought from in the past. Every now and then there's a knucklehead (Mr. Bartiromo, we await the activation of your stealth accounts that will "spam the hell out of the boards") but as a rule, they're good guys. Also, developing your own eye to tell what is good and what is forged will help give you peace of mind. I'm trying to do that as I build my project; it takes time, and it's a WIP, but it's getting there. Hope this helps.

With all due respect, just trusting the sellers on Net54 BST is not the answer to this guy's question, any more than just trusting a JSA or PSA cert.

Your last point regarding educating yourself, is the answer. If you don't have an eye for autographs (it's okay to lack aptitude in this area - I can't do brain surgery) then you have to pick a very, very select few sellers to purchase from. Luckily, all of the ones I would lump in that category sell here on Net54...along with the knuckleheads you alluded to.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

Those two alphabet companies rule out blatant fakes and are right most of the time, but they make plenty of mistakes as well, some very high profile. Think of them more as marketing tools than authenticators, good for some level of peace of mind but more valuable for resale value IMO.

As has been said here many times, research is a big part of this and should be enjoyable (i.e., part of the hobby beyond owning pieces of history). If what you read about the alphabets disturbs you and you are looking for absolute certainty, I would seek a different hobby.

Bingo in all respects. I finally sent a link to PSA for a 'quick opinion', just so that I would have that when I re-sold the item. Unfortunately the link did not work - they refunded my money, then ignored me when I sent another link. That was my only experience sending anything to a TPA.

[Ryan1125]

For the most part I will only buy items that I KNOW are authentic, from my own eye, or with the advice of a few people that I 100% trust with certain signatures.

Honestly, learning the signature is 1/2 the fun for me. I enjoy it it, and it's fun "training" my eyes. There are usually "no-brainers" which I feel 100% comfortable purchasing, and I simply pass on signatures that I deem "on the fence", or "fake". Many times people will ask "IS THIS REAL OR NO" and what they should be asking me is "Would you purchase this or not?" because that is how I look at it when judging. If there is ANY doubt, simply pass.

PSA/DNA and JSA both make mistakes all the time, it should NEVER be about the "COA", you should always pay attention to the signature. If you literally have no clue, then yes, you are more likely to get a real signature if you buy one with PSA/DNA or JSA certification, but by no means should anyone believe those are "proof" of authenticity.

The more I collect, the more I realize that autographs I simply buy on eBay do not mean much to me, so I've tried to weed out my collection to mostly items I've gotten signed myself. This is obviously the safest route, but some people are just impossible to get this way. I have gotten a lot of sigs TTM (just gotta be careful about secretarials, autopens, etc.), and I have purchased plenty of pack-issued autographed cards as well.

[hawaiian bam bam]

Does anyone know why or what makes blue sharpie /stadeler turn from blue to the grayish purpleish color? Thanks

[hawaiian bam bam]

anyone know the answer to my question? thanks

[EYECOLLECTVINTAGE]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

To the OP,
I am one who has been very critical of the TPAs in the autograph world. While I agree that they get the majority of stuff right, many of the mistakes they have made are really big ones that defy logic, IMHO. When taken in the correct way, I think they do serve a purpose for giving an opinion. My problem has always been that people take them as the end all be all on auto because they sell themselves as experts. Plus they charge based on the autograph value and not the difficulty of the authentication. IMO, If it was about quality of work, the time it takes to do an authentication would the price varying factor. Many of the big name autos can be given a "yes" or "no" in seconds, once you know what you are looking for, but I would be willing to bet only a couple people on the totality of this board know what a Clancy Smyres auto looks like. I don't

The best way to ensure the highest likelihood of buying real autos comes in 6 easy steps.

1) Educate yourself on the autos you wish to buy.
2) Educate yourself on the autos you wish to buy.
3) Educate yourself on the autos you wish to buy.

4) Find a select group of well established/reliable dealers. Besides knowledge, perhaps the most important thing to look for is do they stand behind their items. The reality is that every auto collector has, at one time, perhaps more than once, purchased or sold an auto that was not real. Of course, for most of us, it's just a mistake. IMHO, The real test of a good dealer is will they take something back if it is later shown to be fake. Many out there will get something certed by PSA and then issue the no refund deal. I think that someone who is confident in their skills will rely on their own expertise, not a TPA.

5) Find a group of friends/colleague collectors who you trust.. These people should be able to tell you their truthful opinion without you getting pissed at them. Sometimes we all need that slap across the back of the head to reality orient us. Additionally these will be the people who will share their knowledge with you openly. As you can see, many people are tight lipped about specific things they look for in each auto. A lot do this, because scammers read Net54 as well, and no one wants to give them any help

6) Become a skeptic. One of the biggest issues I see is that people want the items to be real so much to feed their obsession that they lose objectivity. If it's too good to be true, it probably isn't.

Autos can be a lot of fun, but they are also a lot of work. Please don't "invest" your hard earned money expecting a big return before you have an idea what you are looking at.

Regarding factory certed autos... I guess you guys haven't heard about the scandals where one of the companies send a player a few hundred cards and he gave some to different family members to sign. LOL

Best,
M@rk V3l@rd3

Thanks so much. I just received my autograph reference book last night and I am reading and comparing. It's realllly fun too. Thanks for the advice.

[Republicaninmass]

6) Become a skeptic. One of the biggest issues I see is that people want the items to be real so much to feed their obsession that they lose objectivity. If it's too good to be true, it probably isn't.


Guilty as charged

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

6) Become a skeptic. One of the biggest issues I see is that people want the items to be real so much to feed their obsession that they lose objectivity. If it's too good to be true, it probably isn't.


Guilty as charged

Yeah I would bet 99%+ of autograph collectors (at least those who purchase autographs) knows of what he speaks from personal experience.

[mschwade]

Originally Posted by EYECOLLECTVINTAGE

So I just spent about the last 8 hours reading article after article on PSA/DNA and JSA mistakes as well as articles from ESPN and 20/20 that 80% of autographs sold in USA are forgeries. HOW can anyone buy signatures now and be confident they are real regardless of a COA etc. Are there any guys out there that are good that don't have these HUGE companies but have great reputations?

Thanks

Do your own homework.

[hawaiian bam bam]

its funny with all the knowledge on this board, no one knows why blue sharpie turns grayish purple. come on guys!!!!!!!

[Duluth Eskimo]

Quit hijacking a thread brah

[hawaiian bam bam]

LOL! Answer the question brah!

[egri]

You've asked this question several times already, and gotten the same responses each time. The Net54 well is dry/dead horse is beaten/whatever other analogy you can think of. At this point, I'd suggest emailing one of the chemistry professors at your local college and getting their opinion. For sure, they would know.

[hawaiian bam bam]

Really clown? can you show me where it says the answer because i really dont remember that question being asked(it might i just dont remember) please dont be a tool. simply put, i dont put up with that.

[sbfinley]

Originally Posted by hawaiian bam bam

its funny with all the knowledge on this board, no one knows why blue sharpie turns grayish purple. come on guys!!!!!!!

It's because there is no such thing as "permanent" or "archival" marker. Well, technically it's because of science. They are all alcohol and aniline dyes. Dyes will fade. You can put your signed item in a box away from the light, put that box in box, and put that box in a box. It will still fade... one day. Blue turns to purple, black to brown, it's just how color works. There is a reason artists don't use sharpies or staedtlers, because one of the purposes of the majority of art is to last. The only exception to that rule is true India ink. Also there is this: https://www.google.com

[Ryan1125]

Originally Posted by hawaiian bam bam

its funny with all the knowledge on this board, no one knows why blue sharpie turns grayish purple. come on guys!!!!!!!

How about starting a new thread with your question in the title instead of burying it on page 3 of a thread that is a completely different topic? Or google it? Sheesh.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by hawaiian bam bam

Really clown? can you show me where it says the answer because i really dont remember that question being asked(it might i just dont remember) please dont be a tool. simply put, i dont put up with that.

Please put your name next to your post or in your sig line, thanks.

[hawaiian bam bam]

Thank you steven for your help, that was the answer I was looking for. I appreciate your help.

The reason I didnt look at google first is because how many times have we heard that you cant believe everything we read/find on the internet? I trust the opinions/advice/info from members of this site way more than i trust what a google search tells me. you guys are the experts, not google.

I apologize if i seemed to piss people off by asking a simple question. i must of got the threads mixed up as i thought i was posting on a different thread. not this one. a simple mistake. one that i dont think deserves to be ridiculed or rude behavior or thinking your a higher class person than those that make simple as we all make mistakes. again, for some reason i thought i was posting on a thread about sharpie signatures. my bad!

Leon, Thank you for the ehads up o that. I just added it.

[Leon]

No worries on the heads up. It can be confusing. Can you help me understand how you posted AL as your full name but yet you registered with elb.ert hug.hes? Thanks man!!

Originally Posted by hawaiian bam bam

Thank you steven for your help, that was the answer I was looking for. I appreciate your help.

The reason I didnt look at google first is because how many times have we heard that you cant believe everything we read/find on the internet? I trust the opinions/advice/info from members of this site way more than i trust what a google search tells me. you guys are the experts, not google.

I apologize if i seemed to piss people off by asking a simple question. i must of got the threads mixed up as i thought i was posting on a different thread. not this one. a simple mistake. one that i dont think deserves to be ridiculed or rude behavior or thinking your a higher class person than those that make simple as we all make mistakes. again, for some reason i thought i was posting on a thread about sharpie signatures. my bad!

Leon, Thank you for the ehads up o that. I just added it.

[hawaiian bam bam]

hey leon,
my full name is albert but i go by al

thanks