College Basketball All-Time Scoring Record

[BobC]

This is absolutely ridiculous in my opinion, and the thoughts/comments of others involved remind me somewhat of the Lavar Ball show. Even the NBA doesn't go counting points scored in the playoffs towards its all-time scoring record. I would actually be more embarrassed to supposedly hold a record like this over someone like Pete Maravich when it was learned exactly to what lengths I, and others, went through to get it. This IMO not only doesn't deserve an "asterisk" if the breaking of Maravich's record does come to happen, it deserves to be entirely and utterly dismissed and ignored. LOL

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/pete-ma...032207421.html

If anything, I stand and applaud Youngstown State for their effort to not allow a farce to take over one of college basketball's great records. And nothing against this kid, but what does he need a bodyguard and manager for?

[todeen]

I don't see anything absurd with records being broken. So many rules have changed that records from previous eras essentially stand alone. In baseball we now have a ghost runner starting in the 10th inning. How weird is that? And in the NBA, they now have a 3-pt line that has demolished previous scoring records. And the 3 pt line has even changed distance since it was created.

However, I do agree with you about postseason points being included. I discovered that myself a week ago and thought how weird that is.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by todeen

I don't see anything absurd with records being broken. So many rules have changed that records from previous eras essentially stand alone. In baseball we now have a ghost runner starting in the 10th inning. How weird is that? And in the NBA, they now have a 3-pt line that has demolished previous scoring records. And the 3 pt line has even changed distance since it was created.

However, I do agree with you about postseason points being included. I discovered that myself a week ago and thought how weird that is.

Aside from the other details, he's had FIVE years ('student' held back?) and 144 games to get this close. Pete had only three years; 93 games and no 3-pt. shot.

I checked this guy's stats and he only hits 40.8 of his field goals - even Pete did better than that.

.

[mikemb]

Any all time or career record will always involve players from different era's with different rules.

But the opportunity to play more games, in college basketball, has increased so much from when I was a kid. When I was younger, freshman were not eligible, no 3 pointers, no conference tournaments, 26 game schedule and 32 teams in the NCAA tournament.

Yes you still have to be good to be the all time leader and I don't think it should be ignored. But it does not mean the all time leader is the best at what it is.

Mike

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Aside from the other details, he's had FIVE years ('student' held back?) and 144 games to get this close. Pete had only three years; 93 games and no 3-pt. shot.

I checked this guy's stats and he only hits 40.8 of his field goals - even Pete did better than that.

.

With the disparity in games played and Maravich playing pre three, there's just no equivalence here at all. Maravich also played in a major college program.

[D. Bergin]

Not that I care about it one way or another, but I assume that they also counted Tournament games in Maravich's record also, sooooo?

Not sure why anybody would be attached to this record, and almost literally no other record in college sports.

Pete was coached by his dad, took 40 shots a game, playing on a mostly .500 team while shooting less then 44% from the floor. Pete was a great player, but c'mon...if he was playing on a high level college team with a coach who wasn't his dad, no way he puts up anywhere near those numbers.

Imagine if he had played for John Wooden? Jabbar took 17.3 shots a game his freshman year...and never took that many shots again, during his college career.

...and all that's fine. College opponents, schedules, skill levels, etc..., are way too volatile for any of this to mean anything.

Here's a comprehensive list of College Football records. Let me know if there's a single one on there anybody cares about...who didn't openly root for that team, or go to that alma mater.

https://americanfootballdatabase.fan...otball_records

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

With the disparity in games played and Maravich playing pre three, there's just no equivalence here at all. Maravich also played in a major college program.

Nobody is ever going to assume there's an equivalence. The Maravich legend will continue unabated, no matter how many points this kid scores, or how many low level post-season tournaments he participates in.

[todeen]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

I checked this guy's stats and he only hits 40.8 of his field goals - even Pete did better than that.
.

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Pete was coached by his dad, took 40 shots a game, playing on a mostly .500 team while shooting less then 44% from the floor. Pete was a great player, but c'mon...if he was playing on a high level college team with a coach who wasn't his dad, no way he puts up anywhere near those numbers.

This article said that Davis is coached by his father, and the team has had a losing record each season he has played. It is apparent that Davis is THEE offensive cog in this team's success. He shoots a lot, misses a lot, and makes 40%. When he's hot, the team wins. When he's cold, they lose. Just like last night.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Not that I care about it one way or another, but I assume that they also counted Tournament games in Maravich's record also, sooooo?

Not sure why anybody would be attached to this record, and almost literally no other record in college sports.

Pete was coached by his dad, took 40 shots a game, playing on a mostly .500 team while shooting less then 44% from the floor. Pete was a great player, but c'mon...if he was playing on a high level college team with a coach who wasn't his dad, no way he puts up anywhere near those numbers.

Imagine if he had played for John Wooden? Jabbar took 17.3 shots a game his freshman year...and never took that many shots again, during his college career.

...and all that's fine. College opponents, schedules, skill levels, etc..., are way too volatile for any of this to mean anything.

Here's a comprehensive list of College Football records. Let me know if there's a single one on there anybody cares about...who didn't openly root for that team, or go to that alma mater.

https://americanfootballdatabase.fan...otball_records

From what I saw, mostly in the NBA, Maraviich was a really good passer, not just a scoring machine. On a better team, he would not have been the best option such a high percentage of the time and he would have passed more and shot less. And just imagine him playing in the ear of the three.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by todeen

This article said that Davis is coached by his father, and the team has had a losing record each season he has played. It is apparent that Davis is THEE offensive cog in this team's success. He shoots a lot, misses a lot, and makes 40%. When he's hot, the team wins. When he's cold, they lose. Just like last night.

Exactly! Not far off from Maravich, albeit at a lower level. It's not a record that should be held in high regard.

For the record, he played way more games, but also shot half as many shots a game from the field as Maravich. Shot 38% from 3 point land, finishing up this season at a hair over 41%. For comparison that's about Steph Curry's college average at Davidson (Not in any way comparing him to Curry BTW).

Good for the kid. He'll likely barely get a sniff at G-League, let alone the NBA, but he can say he scored as many points in college as "Pistol Pete".

Ron Dayne is the All-Time Division 1 Leader in Rushing Yards (including Bowl games). He was a barely serviceable NFL back. Not including Bowl games, a fella by the name of Donnel Pumphrey has the record. He graduated 5 years ago. He's an assistant coach at his college now.

This is low stakes stuff man.

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

From what I saw, mostly in the NBA, Maraviich was a really good passer, not just a scoring machine. On a better team, he would not have been the best option such a high percentage of the time and he would have passed more and shot less. And just imagine him playing in the ear of the three.

Absolutely, but Maravich played on bad teams everywhere he went. Maybe if he wasn't allowed to jack up 40 shots a game at LSU, he would have developed into a more well rounded player in the NBA.

For all the Maravich highlights we've seen regarding his passing game, dude was never among the league leaders in assists......or much of anything else other then 1 scoring title.

He's listed with a HOF probability of 10.2% on Basketball Reference.

I know why he made the Basketball HOF easily, since it takes into account both NBA and College careers, but he also made both the NBA All-50 Team and All-75 team, 25 years later, and for the life of me, I can't figure out why.

Maybe he was way ahead of his time, and would have been a dagger of a 3 point shooter...but we'll never really know for sure.

I put him in the category of Joe Namath and Bill Walton. Their reputation precedes them for whatever reason (they were flashy, risky players, with flashy, risky personalities, a ton of potential and bad knees?).....but when you look at their stats against other players...it leaves a lot to be desired.

Again, I'll reiterate, this has nothing to do with Antoine Davis...who will have a very cool story to tell his kids and grandkids, but not have anything approaching the career of Maravich.

[jiw98]

It has been said that Pistol Pete would have averaged 57 points per game if there was a 3 point line when he played. I think it Dale Brown who said it.

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

I know why he made the Basketball HOF easily, since it takes into account both NBA and College careers, but he also made both the NBA All-50 Team and All-75 team, 25 years later, and for the life of me, I can't figure out why.

This statement is misleading. Fortunately, it is the Basketball Hall of Fame not the NBA Hall of Fame. There are a more than a few players very little or no pro ball who are in the hall. If you look at his stats he still scored almost 16,000 regular season points and 24.2 ppg in the NBA and won a scoring championship. Not bad for a 10 year career. Due to knee injuries his playing time his last year was half that of the year before. That is an above average career for the 1970's. If not for his NBA career he would have made the Hall of Fame on his college career alone, and been inducted his first year of eligibility.

If they are going to count Davis's 5 years then they should also count the stats of Maravich on the freshman team - 17 games and 741 points. That gives him 4418 points in 100 games. Let's give Davis a sixth year of eligibility to try and pass that.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Absolutely, but Maravich played on bad teams everywhere he went. Maybe if he wasn't allowed to jack up 40 shots a game at LSU, he would have developed into a more well rounded player in the NBA.

For all the Maravich highlights we've seen regarding his passing game, dude was never among the league leaders in assists......or much of anything else other then 1 scoring title.

He's listed with a HOF probability of 10.2% on Basketball Reference.

I know why he made the Basketball HOF easily, since it takes into account both NBA and College careers, but he also made both the NBA All-50 Team and All-75 team, 25 years later, and for the life of me, I can't figure out why.

Maybe he was way ahead of his time, and would have been a dagger of a 3 point shooter...but we'll never really know for sure.

I put him in the category of Joe Namath and Bill Walton. Their reputation precedes them for whatever reason (they were flashy, risky players, with flashy, risky personalities, a ton of potential and bad knees?).....but when you look at their stats against other players...it leaves a lot to be desired.

Again, I'll reiterate, this has nothing to do with Antoine Davis...who will have a very cool story to tell his kids and grandkids, but not have anything approaching the career of Maravich.

I think the Namath analogy is apt. I disagree on Walton. He wsa a supremely talented player with great fundamentals who just could not stay healthy.

[BobC]

Don't disagree with anyone's points and opinions. The worst thing that got to me was how many more games that Davis played, and the fact that he got to play a full 5 years of college basketball. Maravich, like most other basketball players back then, did not get to play as a freshman at all on the collegiate varsity team. And despite Maravich's team not doing very well his first two varsity seasons, they did end up 22-10 his senior year, 2nd place in the SEC, and a 4th place finish in the NIT. Maravich's senior year was the only season he got into any post season play.

Meanwhile, Davis got to add a 5th year of playing due to a ONE-TIME rule change/exception granted by the NCAA due to the Covid restrictions in place during the 20-21 season. While the exception was to make up for games not played during the height of the Covid pandemic, it is interesting in that Detroit Mercy still played in 22 games that season. That does not sound like much of a "lost season" to me. Also, the college itself had to agree to the extra year for qualifying athletes. Want to guess how Davis being the head coach's son likely factored into Detroit Mercy making that decision?

The other ridiculous factor in all this is that even though Detroit Mercy did not make the NCAA or NIT tournaments, they can still play in a pay-for-play tournament I never even heard of before this called the College Basketball Invitational (CBI). But you have to be invited, oh, and then the college has to agree to pay a $27,500 entrance fee. How in the hell does this qualify as a legit Division I college tournament? And as this kid's Dad is the head basketball coach, and the group that runs this tournament would likely die for the possible attention this kid playing in this largely unknown and obscure tournament would bring, anyone want to bet how hard these parties may try to get this kid the one more game he needs to get 4 more points and claim the college all-time scoring record?

I hear those of you that say it is a nothing record to you, and that you don't care. (Which begs the question of why you even bothered reading the thread in the first place then, let alone posting in it.) But fine, it still seems utterly ridiculous to be able to use games in some pay-for-play obscure tournament to be able to set a record that shouldn't be getting challenged at all in the first place, because of not some permanent rule change, but a one-time fluke rule exception that saw this kid lose maybe 8-9 games in the 20-21 Covid shortened season, and get to replace those missed games with a full 33 game season this year. And maybe even some more games for this year if Daddy can get the school to buy into this CBI tournament for his kid. As I already said, whoever is putting on and sponsoring this tournament, and possibly looking for more on airtime and promotion/hype, you know they're going to want this kid to play and set the all-time record during their tournament.

And let's be honest, if this kid was really that good at basketball, he would've been pulled into the NBA draft long before now. This is more like a side-show stunt than anything else at this point IMO.

[BobC]

And for those questioning Maravich belonging in the Basketball HOF, i think there's something like over 150 players enshrined in the basketball HOF now, and I believe he still ranks as having the 22nd highest scoring average per game all-time, of all combined NBA/ABA players, at 24.2 PPG. And aside from starting out his NBA career alongside Lou Hudson and future HOFer Walt Bellamy, and therefore sharing a lot of the scoring with them (Hudson and Bellamy were no slouches and had 20.16 PPG and 20.08 PPG career scoring averages, respectively), he didn't get the benefit of the 3-point shot. Unlike a lot of early players that did much of their work in the paint, Maravich was known for taking long, 3-point deep shots. Unfortunately, the NBA did not adopt the 3-point basket until Maravich's last year in the NBA, 1979-80. It is pretty safe to assume his PPG average would have been several points higher had the 3-point rule been in place, and his spot on the all-time PPG game would move up quite a few places. Also, for those commenting about his .441 career FG %, it may be more applicable to be comparing that to the FG % of today's 3-point shooters, than the FG % of guys working mostly in the paint back in Maravich's time.

And yes, he didn't get to play on any winning teams. After his initial stint with the Atlanta Hawks, he went to the brand new New Orleans Jazz expansion team, and spent half his NBA career there. Where being arguably the best player on the team for the first few years, he would have had a lot of attention placed on him, and stopping him from scoring. Wasn't until his last couple of years with the Jazz that he finally got some help from first, Truck Robinson, and then Spencer Haywood.

The fact that despite him playing with only a 2-point basket, he's still at 22 on the all-time PPG list, and everyone ahead of him is either already in the HOF, or still playing, I think is pretty good evidence that he does in fact belong in the HOF.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

Nobody is ever going to assume there's an equivalence. The Maravich legend will continue unabated, no matter how many points this kid scores, or how many low level post-season tournaments he participates in.

and as we know he fell short but I saw a story that said his college could play in another tournament (for a $50K fee) and then he would have at least 1 more game to beat it.

I hope he does not. As others said to score that many points in over 2 extra years and in so many extra games it just seems wrong.
In reality it happens already in all sports like the NBA all time scoring leaders and in MLB and all their records but it will never take away from the LEgend of Pistol Pete

[D. Bergin]

Originally Posted by BobC

And for those questioning Maravich belonging in the Basketball HOF, i think there's something like over 150 players enshrined in the basketball HOF now, and I believe he still ranks as having the 22nd highest scoring average per game all-time, of all combined NBA/ABA players, at 24.2 PPG. And aside from starting out his NBA career alongside Lou Hudson and future HOFer Walt Bellamy, and therefore sharing a lot of the scoring with them (Hudson and Bellamy were no slouches and had 20.16 PPG and 20.08 PPG career scoring averages, respectively), he didn't get the benefit of the 3-point shot. Unlike a lot of early players that did much of their work in the paint, Maravich was known for taking long, 3-point deep shots. Unfortunately, the NBA did not adopt the 3-point basket until Maravich's last year in the NBA, 1979-80. It is pretty safe to assume his PPG average would have been several points higher had the 3-point rule been in place, and his spot on the all-time PPG game would move up quite a few places. Also, for those commenting about his .441 career FG %, it may be more applicable to be comparing that to the FG % of today's 3-point shooters, than the FG % of guys working mostly in the paint back in Maravich's time.

And yes, he didn't get to play on any winning teams. After his initial stint with the Atlanta Hawks, he went to the brand new New Orleans Jazz expansion team, and spent half his NBA career there. Where being arguably the best player on the team for the first few years, he would have had a lot of attention placed on him, and stopping him from scoring. What until his last couple of years with the Jazz that he finally got some help from first, Truck Robinson, and then Spencer Haywood.

The fact that despite him playing with only a 2-point basket, he's still at 22 on the all-time PPG list, and everyone ahead of him is either already in the HOF, or still playing, I think is pretty good evidence that he does in fact belong in the HOF.

For the record, I never questioned his HOF credentials. I questioned him being named to the NBA Greatest All-50 and All-75 Teams.

Makes no logical sense. His WS "Win Shares", which is basically basketballs version of WAR is at the bottom of the list on those teams. There's actually a big gap between him and Walton, and everybody else.

Even if you take into account his shorter career, his WS per 48 minutes is still at the very bottom of the list (Walton fares much better in this category). He scores a .092 per 48 minutes. For reference, league average is set at .100. Make of that what you will, dismiss analytics altogether, or whatever. He doesn't belong on those teams.

Adrian Dantley essentially replaced him on The Jazz. Dantley doesn't make either one of those teams, but he was better then Maravich in nearly every phase of the game...and for a much longer period of time.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

For the record, I never questioned his HOF credentials. I questioned him being named to the NBA Greatest All-50 and All-75 Teams.

Makes no logical sense. His WS "Win Shares", which is basically basketballs version of WAR is at the bottom of the list on those teams. There's actually a big gap between him and Walton, and everybody else.

Even if you take into account his shorter career, his WS per 48 minutes is still at the very bottom of the list (Walton fares much better in this category). He scores a .092 per 48 minutes. For reference, league average is set at .100. Make of that what you will, dismiss analytics altogether, or whatever. He doesn't belong on those teams.

Adrian Dantley essentially replaced him on The Jazz. Dantley doesn't make either one of those teams, but he was better then Maravich in nearly every phase of the game...and for a much longer period of time.

I never said or insinuated you did question his HOF status, my comments weren't directed at you in particular. Just commenting for those who may have viewed him as questionable to be elevated to that level.

As for your comments about him and this WS statistic, I already despise these modern statistics and their modern biases. WAR is okay, I guess, if you're comparing two guys playing in today's version of baseball, but to look at that stat and try to impose it on players from different eras, and expect it to be completely comparable and the best way to measure and compare such players from different eras, is IMO, totally foolish and not all that accurate. I am quite honestly very unfamiliar with this WS stat, but would hazard a guess that it may display some biases also, as does WAR with baseball. Maravich played in a different era, with way different types of players and teams. His long-distance shooting style game would likely be much more in place with today's game than it was for the game at the time he did play. But unlike players today that get fouls called to their benefit when a defender simply breathes hard on them, Maravich played back in the day when they really played defense, and the game was much, much more of a contact sport. I can easily see Maravich being a scoring machine in today's game. Not so sure you can as easily take one of today's shooting stars and put them back in Maravich's time, and then have anywhere near the same success as they have today, or he had back then.

And as for this WS statistic indicating he doesn't belong on the Top 50 or Top 75 All-Time player teams, how do you discount and explain away the fact that he still has the 22nd highest all-time PPG scoring average, and yet never got credit for most of the shots he took that would have counted as 3 points today? Also, it was likely people who knew and actually saw him play that were mostly behind choosing him for those teams than just simply picking based on stats alone. There is a reason that people selected him that transcend the statistics alone. I've never heard of any contemporary player or coach come forward and give any indication they thought he was undeserving of these honors. I would trust the opinions of those people who knew and actually played the game, with and against Maravich, long before I would ever give the opinion of some statisticians even a second thought. I guess we'll just agree to disagree then.

[BobC]

Good!

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/pete-ma...200035801.html

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by BobC

Good!

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/pete-ma...200035801.html

Very good news indeed.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Here's the thing about Maravich and why the hobby loves him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXcCRzEdYjA and there are a bunch like that.

Of course Dantley was better but Dantley was a lunch pail player getting putbacks and 8 footers off the glass after using his butt to create a little space. Maravich was doing stuff nobody could do outside of J and stuff even he couldn't do. People love highlight film players.

[Michael B]

An interesting read. No schadenfreude here, but he should be grateful for the opportunity to play for that long in college. I could see him heading to the Euroleague, ABL (Australian Basketball League), CBA (Chinese Basketball Association), IBPL (Israeli Basketball Premier League) with an outside chance at the G(atorade) League. Some American players have had long careers in the ABL and the CBA loves talented American players (Hello, Stephon Marbury)


https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/oth...da484f5d&ei=24

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by Michael B

An interesting read. No schadenfreude here, but he should be grateful for the opportunity to play for that long in college. I could see him heading to the Euroleague, ABL (Australian Basketball League), CBA (Chinese Basketball Association), IBPL (Israeli Basketball Premier League) with an outside chance at the G(atorade) League. Some American players have had long careers in the ABL and the CBA loves talented American players (Hello, Stephon Marbury)


https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/oth...da484f5d&ei=24

It worked out the right way and Pete's record should not have and luckily did not fall this way.
As for the kid I hope he has success in life whatever he does. I can see him playing oversees I am not sure I see him in the G League but you never know

[mrreality68]

After reading this I am extra happy the kid did not get the record.

Bad sportsmanship to me.

https://l.smartnews.com/p-fG7Ld/i0uIUc


He is upset and feels cheated that he did not get a chance to play in that CBI tournament even though his team had a 14-19 record.

He feels he got cheated because the tournament did not select his team because of outside pressure.
Not a good look especially when it took him 144 games and 5 years to do what Pete did in 3 years and 88 games (and without the 3 point line).

[BobC]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

After reading this I am extra happy the kid did not get the record.

Bad sportsmanship to me.

https://l.smartnews.com/p-fG7Ld/i0uIUc


He is upset and feels cheated that he did not get a chance to play in that CBI tournament even though his team had a 14-19 record.

He feels he got cheated because the tournament did not select his team because of outside pressure.
Not a good look especially when it took him 144 games and 5 years to do what Pete did in 3 years and 88 games (and without the 3 point line).

Agreed, I had originally said that if I were this kid, and I got the record that way, I would be embarrassed. I have nothing against this kid, and wish him only well.

[JustinD]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

After reading this I am extra happy the kid did not get the record.

Bad sportsmanship to me.

https://l.smartnews.com/p-fG7Ld/i0uIUc


He is upset and feels cheated that he did not get a chance to play in that CBI tournament even though his team had a 14-19 record.

He feels he got cheated because the tournament did not select his team because of outside pressure.
Not a good look especially when it took him 144 games and 5 years to do what Pete did in 3 years and 88 games (and without the 3 point line).

He's on his own locally here in Detroit for sympathy after the pout fest. He's a very slightly above average player in a below average division. He played a ridiculous amount of games and it would be the equivalent of saying that all the best NFL players of all time were kickers as they are the composition of all the top scorers to actually care. Because they played 20+ years does not gift them a GOAT title.

It was a cute story, however I need no Barnum and Bailey sideshows in the history books.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by JustinD

He's on his own locally here in Detroit for sympathy after the pout fest. He's a very slightly above average player in a below average division. He played a ridiculous amount of games and it would be the equivalent of saying that all the best NFL players of all time were kickers as they are the composition of all the top scorers to actually care. Because they played 20+ years does not gift them a GOAT title.

It was a cute story, however I need no Barnum and Bailey sideshows in the history books.

Very Well Said

And we all hope for the best for him as a person and a career. Just the pout fest ruined a feel good story
And the record should be the record