Size Matters?

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Posted By: Nickinvegas

I am not sure how many of you receive SMR,I thought there was an interesting commentary from PSA's Joe Orlando regarding trimmed & undersized cards.

To qoute the most signifigant part's of his letter:

"The biggest point of confusion with trimming comes when a collector notices a card that is slightly undersized-even in a PSA holder. I hear cries "That card looks small, it must be trimmed-trimmed I say!" Nothing could be further from the truth. Is size one factor...of course but size alone, in this case does not matter...Pre-war cards, especially were cut very inconsistently."

He goes on to explain what to look for when determing if a card is trimmed(wavy borders etc.)

I have seen several cards that appeared small in the PSA holder. And by my perception trimmed, but still encapsulated. I guess what Joe is saying is perception is not reality. Are there pre-war issues that were factory cut smaller/larger on a conisitent basis?

Nick

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Issued by Mecca and Tolstoi. It is not unusual to find T220 boxing cards with as much as 3/16" variance. Some cards I've seen were oversized to the point where the card exhibited a line of wear on the top or bottom because of it sticking up inside a stack.

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Posted By: jay behrens

I've been collecting long enough that I can remember seeing BOTH oversized and small t206s, t205, t207s, etc. Thanks to the trimming craze that started when Copeland offered $100 per common for NM t206s, almost no oversized tobacco cards exist. And today, anything that is oversized is considered fair game for trimming size it will "measure up" and grade.

The excuse that there were is size inconsistancies is cover up for shoddy grading. I know there are short cards, but not in the proportions that you see them in PSA holders.

Jay

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Posted By: petecld

AMEN Jay AMEN!

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Posted By: botn

What Joe is saying is that PSA no longer has enough experience in the grading room to catch alterations. He has not only heard and read countless collectors and dealers who are publicly pointing out trimmed cards in PSA holders but he himself has seen an overwhelming amount of junk in their holders. But the golden rule at CU is that once PSA has encapsulated the card then the card MUST be good.

Most cards that are trimmed and in holders can be spotted quite easily. Since other forms of alterations like reglossing, paper being added to corners or color added can be more difficult to detect, Joe does not have to address those examples, yet.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

While I agree with Jay, Pete, and Greg, that there are alot of trimmed cards in Holders. I disagree with the statement that there are No oversized T206's.
Here are a few which were all purchased raw on Ebay in the last year:

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Posted By: dan mckee

Another easy way to tell a trimmed card that Joe Orlando hasn't mentioned above is having dog-eared corners. Like the Nice PSA Wagner and many of the other trimmed cards PSA had on display a few nationals ago.

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Posted By: jay behrens

I didn't say there are no more oversized cards, but that they are not found that often anymore.

The way I found out about the whole "let's trim them to sell to Copeland" deal was when several dealers approached me saying they were paying a premium for oversized t-cards. When I asked some other dealers why this was going on, they told be about the prices Copeland was paying for NM t206s and why they wanted the oversized cards.

Jay

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Posted By: TBob

Ask any woman, and she'll tell you, "YES!" (Sorry Julie)
Seriously (ahem) it is interesting that the Big 3 grading companies don't seem to recognize the inconsistent lengths of the 1910 M116 Sporting Life cards and quickly toss them out as being trimmed if they don't measure exactly to the "ideal 1 1/2 by 2 3/4." M116s vary more than any other set I have ever collected yet they are the first ones tossed by SGC and PSA (the OLD PSA) for being "trimmed" if they don't measure to the arbitrary standard.

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Posted By: Anonymous

At the risk of sounding redundant, I post these pictures from an earlier stream. It would appear that GAI and SGC are not immune from the same allegations. How are these grading companies responding?

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Posted By: jay behrens

I'd be interested in seeing closer scans of the corners. The SGC card appears to have plenty of wear on the coners, but I can't be sure. And doesn't appear to be so short that doesn't fall within the normal range. There are legit short cards out there, but and short that grades 7 or higher is very suspect. A short card with honest corner wear is not going to worry me as much.

Also, if all you can find is one questionable card each from SGC and GAI, then there is no where near the concer that there is for PSA where examples of obviously trimmed cards are found on eBay on a very regular basis.

Jay

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Posted By: Anonymous

First of all, there are fewer SGC and GAI cards out there than PSA cards, so the number of questionable cards is going to be less by default. Second, I was not trying to produce a full library of questionable cards for SGC and GAI -- I wasn't doing research, I stumbled across those cards by accident. Third, again, all I'm trying to do is point out that short cards wind up in all different types of holders. What I'm asking for, as a collector that's new to this board, is what types of assurances can I give myself that short cards are really short, but not trimmed? And isn't that what third-party grading is all about?

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Posted By: T206 Collector

I hadn't logged in. As a post-script, I am not a PSA lover. Quite the contrary, based on what I have read on this board I believe that PSA has done more chop-jobs than SGC or GAI, perhaps even knowingly rather than negligently. When I have asked for help, people have turned me to GAI and SGC, but as soon as I turned to GAI and SGC, I found the cards I posted above. As you might imagine, this gave me no great comfort. I'd buy a blacklight, but apparently that's what the grading companies do (and would be better at it I'm sure). So am I stuck purchasing vintage cards only if they're oversized?

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Posted By: petecld

" So am I stuck purchasing vintage cards only if they're oversized?"

What the heck does that mean? I'm assuming you are a new collector?

This isn't just for "T206 Collector" but any collector new to vintage:

Try having a faith in yourself. Stop letting a so called "unbiased" 3rd party do the thinking for you. I hear from so many new collectors how they feel they can only trust the graded cards and how they can't tell the bad from the good - of course you can't - for NOW. It's called experience. Have some patience. Ebay isn't going anywhere anytime soon and HOPEFULLY neither are card shows. Ask questions, look at as many cards on eBay, at shows, other collections if you can BEFORE you buy a thing and apply a little common sense (read: Are these 90-year old corners/edges too good to be true?) and you'll be amazed at how comfortable you will become buying vintage cards - any vintage card - entombed or not. It takes time.

Listen to your gut instincts. If you "feel" a card is bad. Most likely it is. And if it isn't? So what. Isn't it better to have a collection you are comfortable with as opposed to one that is the best condition? Also remember 99% of all Baseball cards AREN'T one-of-a-kind items. Kinda iffy on a card in your hand? Put it down. You WILL find another one that you will be comfortable with. Let the deep pockets who don't have a clue buy all the 100 year old PSA 8s and 9s.

Also heed the words Jay said about Copeland. It's that kind of information that is invaluable if you haven't been in the hobby a long time. I was around in the hobby at that time as well and can relate the same experience. All these dealers all of the sudden wanted oversized cards, hmmmm. . . wonder why.

My 2 cents. . . . .

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Posted By: T206 Collector

There is a reason that third party grading has gotten so popular. And it is because of trust. I have been collecting vintage cards for 15 years and am sorry to report that as a general matter I don't trust dealers of vintage material. I'm sure 95% of them are reputable -- I just don't know who the 5% are, the dollars at stake are material and the horror stories on this board have made me even more skeptical. And I certainly don't trust PSA anymore. My interest in vintage collecting, as with many collectors, can be directly attributable to third party grading and ebay. It is supposed to take the guess work out and reinstore trust. If you take away third party grading, you take away the main source of trust (and hence collecting) for many of us.

The last time I made any serious purchase of an ungraded card, I bought a 1909 T-206 Walter Johnson portrait. I paid over $500 for it because the dealer said it was not creased and the scan backed him up. Unfortunately, when I got the card, it was creased. Fortunately, the dealer let me return it. But that was about a month of back and forths with me out $500 for a few weeks. And what if the dealer hadn't been so understanding? I made up my mind to purchase only PSA or SGC cards (and now GAI cards) after that.

In short, I am not willing to let me experience in looking at cards be the definitive answer as to whether I should plunk down $500+. I believe many experienced collectors would agree with me.

The basic response from this board has been: go with SGC and GAI, but there is no substitute for a little personal experience. And I am willing to live with that answer, more or less. But I am not particularly happy with it.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

I thought this discussion was about being short, not off center. I believe the SGC and GAI cards are off center not short, which would drop them out of this discussion.
As far as Jay's statement about oversized cards not being available I disagree. I have bought many of them and had a few graded. there may not be as many because of the situation he described but they are still out there.
I have probably purchased over 600 T206s and do not feel that I have ever purchased a card that was legitmately short. I have bought some cards unknowlingly short, but they all had evidance of tampering. If there are legitmate short T206s there sure are not many of them.
Pete, Is always right about experience. there is replacement for experience. If you are going to spend money do a little research, if you feel a card is suspect pass on it, there is going to be another one for sale in the future (most cards). No need to jump the gun.

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Posted By: T206 Collector

Are you saying the cards above are only off-center because they appear to have "some room to grow" below the name? I would agree with that. But how would you know if a card was trimmed? Do you using a measuring tool or black light, or are you eye-balling it? What evidence of tampering do you look for? "Dog ears" that are left behind after a soft corner has been shaved? Does the centering of the back offer any clues? Anyone care to chime in with their techniques? I'm sure it would make an interesting read. The more details the better, please. It would be extremely helpful.

Paul

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Posted By: david

it is hard to see the gai and sgc cards because of shadows on the images. again, we all recognize slight variance in size whether it is long or short. however, despite what the people at psa say a quarter of an inch is not normal as is the case with many of the psa high grade t206s

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Posted By: bimmy

as t206 collector asked, how do you tell if a cards been trimmed? more importantly, how can you tell trimmed entombed cards? ive seen some trimmed t205s and the corner wear gives em away, but those were raw and not good jobs. i dont think i could spot a very well doctored card that was in a holder.

also i would like to see some scans of trimmed t206s in psa holders.

one last thing, what happens in the trimming process to cause dog ears? why do they form?

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Posted By: John Wojak

If you've ever tried to cut off a thin strip of paper or cardboard, when you get to the very edge the paper tends to pull away a little and what you get is what people call a "bat ear" - a little point that sticks up. For example, a card that was trimmed along the bottom border (very common with E90-1, e92/101/102 and other caramels with those very wide bottom borders) will frequently have a very nice bottom border with sharp corners that, upon close examination, have points sticking down at the very corners. This, in conjunction with a too-short card or too-good-to-be-true corners, is a real red flag. Generally, trust your eyes. If you have examined in person, or in scans on ebay etc., hundreds of cards from a particular set (and every set has its own quirks) you will know what the appropriate height/width appearance and border width should be, and a card that has been trimmed on the sides or ends will just look wrong. And study the worn, low-grade cards, not the high grade cards, to see what the card SHOULD look like. Nobody is going to mess with and trim a card that still has a bunch of creases in it, or paper loss, so you know that the edges are the real thing. Get a feel for how wide the borders should be. Then when you see a high grade card, a hundred year old 7 or 8, you'll be surprised at how many of them just don't have the same border width as the low grade cards, and you can't study the high grade cards to see what the border widths should look like. Then, when you see a card you are interested in, measure it. I actually take a ruler sometimes and measure the scan on the screen of my computer and do a height v. width proportional calculation. On a scan you can't tell absolute height or width, but you can tell if the proportion between the width and the height is right or wrong compared to a standard card. Believe me, it works. Another thing to look for is angle cuts - a lot of caramel cards have angle cuts; some like e90-1 and the e92/101/102 family tend to have angle cuts on the top and bottom. Just poor cutting quality. But they almost always have a matching cut top and bottom, like if the whole sheet was misaligned for the whole cut run. If you see an angle cut on top or bottom, and the opposite edge is straight across with sharp corners, in general that should raise a concern. Above all, take the time to get to view as as many examples of the particular set you are interested in as you can to get a feel for them, not only for what a typical card should look like, but also to see what types of cutting or printing anomalies appear commonly on the low-grade (and therefore probably unaltered) cards and are probably factory glitches and not tampering. Some sets are generally very uniformly cut (like t206s) and some are notoriously poorly cut (like e220s). What may be acceptable for one set will not be acceptable for another.

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Posted By: jay behrens

You have to be kidding. You say you've been collecting vintage cards for 15 years, yet you cannot tell the good dealers from the bad ones? Granted, I'm the exception and not the rule most people experience in the hobby since I was lucky enough to get to know Ron Oser and Bill Bossert when I first got into the hobby and they guided me, but there is no excuse for collecting for 15 years and not knowing who the good and bad dealers are. Also, after 15 years, I would think you have a healthy knowledge of the cards you collect. Not to sound mean, but the only other option would seem to be that you are one of these collectors with more money than common sense. If you are serious about collecting, it should take you about 6 months or less to learn who is the good guys and bad guys are.

To address you question about how do you know if a short card is legit, I mentioned it in my last post, look for honest corner wear. I try to steer clear of really high grade examples and prefer cards with some honest wear. To me, they have character. A card that loved and enjoyed and looked at over and over. Not something that tossed in a box and forgotten decades.

Jay

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Posted By: petecld

I promise, no tangents this time.

In a nut shell bat ears are caused by difference in hand pressure applied to the straight edge when cutting.

A cutting machine applies even pressure along the entire length of the cut. Humans aren't that consistent. When trimming a sliver like John said the tendency is to apply heavy pressure when you first start to cut - because mentally you're being extra careful - and then lighten your hand pressure as you cut - you're gaining confidence in your cut and mentally preparing to stop cutting. This ever so slight lightening of pressure allows the blade to move slightly and when that happens you get bat ears.

Also know that NO mechanical cutter for the printing industry will cut a curve or arc. A sheet may shift when cutting and give you a arched cut but the sheet will also show damage. In my opinion any card with an edge that has an edge with a curve of any length should be considered trimmed. Considering the volume in which Baseball cards are printed and were printed, and I'm including 19th century issues, there is no reason for a card to have anything but a straight edge. And as John mentioned the edges should be parallel.

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Posted By: T206 Collector

...because these descriptions don't help me, but I'm sure we'd all know what you were describing if we could see it. "a little point that sticks up"?

Plus, I assume I can tell if someone trims a card with a pair of scissors -- it just won't leave a straight edge or a clean cut. I'm talking about the smarter folks who use paper cutters, etc. Any tips there?

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Posted By: bimmy

theres a lajoie t206 port 8 on ebay, is that upper left a tiny bat ear?

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Posted By: Anonymous

The Lajoie is at:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2778889201&category=31718

To me the card looks graded too high as an 8. I have 6's that are better. But I don't think it's been trimmed.

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Posted By: MW

edited

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Posted By: Mike Ward

As much as they seem to encapsulate cards that are questionable, they are quick to call cards trimmed that are not. They need work on both sides of the ball.

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Posted By: Todd

You wanna see bat ears, try starting with this guy's auctions:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2780357265&category=31718

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Posted By: John Wojak

Todd - you hit the nail right on the head with the link to the PRO graded T206 Keeler and Chase. PRO high grade cards are almost all trimmed crap. A shame, really. If you look at that Keeler and Chase and just compare them to well-love T206 commons, you can easily see that the white borders around the PRO cards are just too narrow all around. And if you look carefully at the corners, some of them do seem to stick out a little. Check out the bottom corners of the Keeler. I have seen much more obvious bat ears than on these cards, but in my opinion these cards are trimmed.

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Posted By: TBob

Maybe I am missing the boat here but I have several "undersized" cards in my collection which do not appear to have been trimmed based on 25 years of collecting vintage cards yet they won't grade because they are undersized. I hate to beat a dead horse but as Scott B. or any other M116 collector knows, there are tons of Sporting Life cards out there which are NOT trimmed but ARE undersized. The major grading companies, despite what Orlando says, appear to be fixated on the theory that card dimensions less than the stated "book" size equals trimming. That is unless you are one of the "good old boys" who get everything graded without a hint of objection.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Bob, I believe that issues other that T206s and T205 have quite a variance in size on both ends but T205s and T206s do not seem to come undersized, (yes, I know there are exceptions).

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Posted By: jay behrens

The Broadway Rick's Scam Zone offered all those m116s about a year and a half ago all the ones I won were very short and I thought were trimmed. They refunded a chunk of my money further confirming my belief they were trimmed. On a whim and a special, I submitted all these m116s on the off chance one might grade. They ALL came back graded graded by SGC. Small size doesn't not seem to be instant rejection for trimming.

Jay

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Posted By: dan

NOT trimmed, and no "bat ears"

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Posted By: dan

Absolutey a perfect example of trimmed cards Todd, nice job.

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Posted By: dan

Lee, the majoriety of my T206 set was assembled in the 1970s, I have about 40 different sizes in the 500+ cards. None are trimmed. The trimming craze started in the late 1980s. dan.

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Posted By: runscott

I don't know how m116's were originally printed and cut, but they were distributed in series by "Sporting Life". Because the Matty is almost always short on top, I suspect each sheet contained one of each card and Matty was always on top, as opposed to the way t206s were almost always printed - each vertical row containing a different player.

Have any of you m116 collectors noticed similar trends with other players?