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  #101  
Old 10-27-2021, 05:53 PM
G1911 G1911 is offline
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Thanks Greg. What I was wondering was if there were any of the panels that would seem out of sequence on this sheet but if the silver run was one series any of the T220 subjects could make up a panel on a silver sheet.

For what it worth as far as the T220 Tolstoi's go I strongly feel the Tolstoi back were printed later in each T206 series that they were printed in. I felt that way before I knew about the ATC journal and the info in the journal that pretty much backs it up.
The last date referred to on card backs, other than Gans, is on Beecher (a card in Silver), a fight on April 14, 1910. A couple other cards with fight records end in March, 1910, several end in 1909 when that fighter was active in 1910. None of the white border only subjects carry us beyond the text on the silver backs. The ledgers March 1911 date for T220 Tolstoi thus seems rather late to not be a re-issue of the Mecca whites.

Gans was under contract when he was still alive (his T218-2 card was almost certainly, though not 100%, designed while he still breathed and was covered by the New York law that, I understand, only applied to living persons) and his T220 card was probably designed and planned before his death. His death was major nationwide news when it happened, makes sense it would be appended to the back text shortly before finalization. And it makes sense they just wouldnít bother to update the backs on the 25 subjects carried over to the second white border series. But every one of the 25 subjects in the white border only group has their back text end a full year before the March 1911 packing date given for the Tolstoiís. Itís also possible there was sometimes a large gap between printing and pack out.

The more I think about it, the more I think it probable (certainly pure opinion and not fact) that the Tolstoiís were a re-issue of the set. If that fits with T206, that seems a further indication of a pattern. Tolstoi strikes me as a more interesting brand in relation to cards than most. It ranges from a mildly tough back to an extremely difficult back (T218ís second series, the bane of my card life), to easy peasy and commonly seen (T80). Old Mill is similar in this regard, all other brands off the top of my head donít really fluctuate that much between sets.
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  #102  
Old 10-27-2021, 06:00 PM
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I've begun my drive into "Old Masters Lithographic Company" and... wow, there isn't much at all. I haven't found squat from 1909-1912 that we want to focus on here. But there are some things.

Here's a company by this name, with a 1926 patent from the 350th volume of the Official Gazette of the United States Patent Office (https://www.google.com/books/edition...C?hl=en&gbpv=0, the .pdf is 547mb). A Thomas A. Meehan is either an executive of this company or the inventor of this product (I lay no claim to understanding what it actually is).

A Thomas Meehan apparently later owned a "Meehan-Tooker" company that purchased Bauer Lithography in 1946 according to an industry journal.

A Thomas Meehan published in Philadelphia in 1880 a collection of chromo-lithographs of botanical pictures, the Native Flowers and Ferns of the United States

I do not know that either of these men are the same Thomas Meehan, or that a Meehan or this Old Masters Lithographic Company is the same as the Old Masters Lithographic Company that Fullgraff, while clearly an Employee of Brett Lithography and with a deep association with the ATC and American Lithography, was using on his business card affixed to the cover of his ledger.

"Old Masters" was an industry term, and makes sense to use as the name of a lithography company; this may be a different company 15 years later. It may have been a name Fullgraff used for his business concerns as a contractor salesman (he gave up his salary in early 1910 after only a year with Brett to work commission only). This may have been a personal book for his own use. Even today many sales reps have not dissimilar spreadsheets tracking things themselves to validate their commissions and the like. Fullgraff was involved with card production of the classic N sets, the T sets, and evidently tried again in the 1920's. It's possible the figures recorded were for him to validate production counts and contracts for his commissions (which he clearly did, for he sued Brett years later for not paying him right), and he scrapbooked some of his creations out of hobby interest, pride in his work as he was a designer and marketer as well as a salesman at the least, or something else. Cards were clearly a significant part of his business life. Or it might be a formal ledger from this evidently small printer, that is presumably a subsidiary of American Lithographic, Brett, or both.

This would be a lot easier if it's buyer would out himself so we could see more than a handful of pages
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Last edited by G1911; 10-27-2021 at 06:24 PM.
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  #103  
Old 10-27-2021, 06:12 PM
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Meehan-Tooker was a significantly sizer lithographer. In 1964 they were bought by City News and Schneider Press, and added 60,000 square feet of offie space and 130 more employees. A Meehan does not seem to have been leading the company bearing his name at this time. There are numerous industry references to them from the 1950's and later in the New York area. They reincorporated in 1969 and now appear to be in NJ or possibly MI as a very small company. They had subsidiary lithography companies in NY as late as 1997.

So there is a Thomas Meehan, Lithographer, working for a company of the same name on Fullgraff's business card some time later. The Fullgraff book is presumably after 1910; the Dixie Queen's in it are probably from the mid 1910's. So this gentleman is a lithographer in the same place with the same business name a decade later, and then his name is used for a Lithography company which he isn't running anymore by the 1950's and continues to recent times. He may be the owner of Old Masters in 1926, he must be a significant employee at least. I'm not finding much on him from the 1910's or 20's. But this may be our path to ID'ing Old Masters.

The book of botany lithographs appears to be a different Meehan from this inventor/lithographer, a professor of the subject and probably not our man.
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  #104  
Old 10-27-2021, 06:23 PM
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While trying to find a connection between this Meehan and Fullgraff, I found that Fullgraff was also an active member of New York Republican politics. He was a member of the Republican State Committee, President for the party of the 2nd Ward's 4th district in 1912. Evidently the man had time to do almost everything under the sun.
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  #105  
Old 10-27-2021, 06:24 PM
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The last date referred to on card backs, other than Gans, is on Beecher (a card in Silver), a fight on April 14, 1910. A couple other cards with fight records end in March, 1910, several end in 1909 when that fighter was active in 1910. None of the white border only subjects carry us beyond the text on the silver backs. The ledgers March 1911 date for T220 Tolstoi thus seems rather late to not be a re-issue of the Mecca whites.

Gans was under contract when he was still alive (his T218-2 card was almost certainly, though not 100%, designed while he still breathed and was covered by the New York law that, I understand, only applied to living persons) and his T220 card was probably designed and planned before his death. His death was major nationwide news when it happened, makes sense it would be appended to the back text shortly before finalization. And it makes sense they just wouldnít bother to update the backs on the 25 subjects carried over to the second white border series. But every one of the 25 subjects in the white border only group has their back text end a full year before the March 1911 packing date given for the Tolstoiís. Itís also possible there was sometimes a large gap between printing and pack out.

The more I think about it, the more I think it probable (certainly pure opinion and not fact) that the Tolstoiís were a re-issue of the set. If that fits with T206, that seems a further indication of a pattern. Tolstoi strikes me as a more interesting brand in relation to cards than most. It ranges from a mildly tough back to an extremely difficult back (T218ís second series, the bane of my card life), to easy peasy and commonly seen (T80). Old Mill is similar in this regard, all other brands off the top of my head donít really fluctuate that much between sets.
I strongly believe the Tolstoi's were not a re-issue with the T206's there are several Tolstoi's similar to this one that indicate they were printed with the T206's.

https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com...e?itemid=46257
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  #106  
Old 10-27-2021, 06:34 PM
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I strongly believe the Tolstoi's were not a re-issue with the T206's there are several Tolstoi's similar to this one that indicate they were printed with the T206's.

https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com...e?itemid=46257
Perhaps re-issue is too strong; not like T219 and T218, but issued some time after the other back in T220. I've found little to indicate production vs. issue time delays; how much they may have varied or if some smaller brands issued essentially surplus fronts with their ad slapped on the back. I don't know the T206 order myself very well.
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  #107  
Old 10-27-2021, 07:08 PM
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Perhaps re-issue is too strong; not like T219 and T218, but issued some time after the other back in T220. I've found little to indicate production vs. issue time delays; how much they may have varied or if some smaller brands issued essentially surplus fronts with their ad slapped on the back. I don't know the T206 order myself very well.
What makes T206's so tough is there are there are so many print groups print group 1 the 150/350 series print group 2 the 350 only series print group 3 the 350/460 series print group 4 the 460 only series and then there are the Southern Leaguers and the 6 super prints. The Tolstoi's weren't printed during print group 1 I think they were one of the last backs if not the last back printed in the print group 2 350 only subjects but after that it gets tougher to figure out.
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  #108  
Old 10-28-2021, 03:16 PM
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No success on clarifying Old Masters, or tying Brett to ALC more directly. I did find some stuff on ALC registering numerous cigarette brands, none of which I have heard of, in a compilation of 1911 issues of The United States Tobacco Journal (https://books.googleusercontent.com/...BbP1Evfh_PuOvw). One of the brands is "Lady Derby"; Derby was of course an issuer of T59 and a tough back, perhaps an off shoot of this brand?

If Fullgraff, ALC and Brett were doing everything the evidence thus far indicates, it begs the question of what the ATC actually did beyond pack and ship cigarettes. So many of the functions of a businesses processes and growth, R&D, marketing, etc. seem to be happening from the lithographers and Fullgraff who may or may not have been on their payroll too.
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  #109  
Old 10-28-2021, 04:51 PM
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No success on clarifying Old Masters, or tying Brett to ALC more directly. I did find some stuff on ALC registering numerous cigarette brands, none of which I have heard of, in a compilation of 1911 issues of The United States Tobacco Journal (https://books.googleusercontent.com/...BbP1Evfh_PuOvw). One of the brands is "Lady Derby"; Derby was of course an issuer of T59 and a tough back, perhaps an off shoot of this brand?

If Fullgraff, ALC and Brett were doing everything the evidence thus far indicates, it begs the question of what the ATC actually did beyond pack and ship cigarettes. So many of the functions of a businesses processes and growth, R&D, marketing, etc. seem to be happening from the lithographers and Fullgraff who may or may not have been on their payroll too.
They did a lot of cigar box labels Greg, so it could be something to do with them.
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  #110  
Old 10-28-2021, 05:01 PM
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They did a lot of cigar box labels Greg, so it could be something to do with them.
Most all of these clearly are not for cards; but the copyright of a product or product logo would, one would think, be owned by the tobacco company, instead of the lithographic company doing their marketing and printing ads in various forms for them. The printer doesn't normally own the logo or name of a product for the firm they are printing ads for.
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  #111  
Old 10-28-2021, 08:15 PM
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Most all of these clearly are not for cards; but the copyright of a product or product logo would, one would think, be owned by the tobacco company, instead of the lithographic company doing their marketing and printing ads in various forms for them. The printer doesn't normally own the logo or name of a product for the firm they are printing ads for.
I must have misunderstood your post I thought you were talking about ALC registering cigarette brands and the link you posted doesn't work for me.
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  #112  
Old 10-28-2021, 08:52 PM
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I must have misunderstood your post I thought you were talking about ALC registering cigarette brands and the link you posted doesn't work for me.
Let me try links again, validated these

1909: https://www.google.com/books/edition...gQ7_IDegQICxAD

1911: https://www.google.com/books/edition...J?hl=en&gbpv=0

ALC appears to be registering cigarette brands as trademarks. ALC is the printer of advertisements, pack wrappers, labels, cards, etc.. I found it odd they appear to be registering trademarks of cigarette brands for themselves. I would think this would obviously be something the ATC would do. When my company has a vendor print stuff or design a label, they don't get copyright to our brands. Again, the connection between the ALC and their apparent shadow subsidiaries and the ATC seems quite unusual. I'd love to stand corrected, perhaps I am misreading the source, but it strikes me as very odd.
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  #113  
Old 10-28-2021, 09:02 PM
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Edit: Found the fire. Page 171 of the court transcript of the 1919 case. Failed in the Newspaper records, but Fuillgraff testifies about it on cross. He places it in 1910, burned out the 511 West 129th Street office. Brett had the place "reorganized" afterwards. His office, alongside other salesman, was there, adjacent to the "bookkeepers". The loss of records appears to be creating problems for both sides of the money lawsuit, as what Fullgraff was paid for some things appears to have burned as well.

Perhaps this is where a lot of the card-relevant records went - burned up in early 1910 almost as soon as they were filed.

Last edited by G1911; 10-28-2021 at 09:08 PM.
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  #114  
Old 10-28-2021, 09:30 PM
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From our discussion of fish cards and the production numbers, further detail is made on pages 125-126 of the 1919 case.

Card counts, set names, dates and payment sums are testified too. all dates are, I believe, 1909. It is unclear to me at present exactly when a sale became commissionable, but it seems before actual printing and delivery, on booking?

"On October 18th, 47,250 for the American Tobacco Company, the Indian cigarette card". This is presumably T73.

"In August 14th, was 5,000,000 cigarette cards of the pugilists, fighters which I had to get the privilege to make" - presumably this is T225 again. Fullgraff implies he himself was getting the legal approvals, matching the Hyland letter too.

"October 21st American Sports Publishing Company 5,000 car cards, $223" - I do not know what this is, tiny production run.

"December 6th, Kedival company 3,000,000 fighters, cigarette cards, do you want the size, 25 subjects, 83 cents a thousand, $2,490" - Further T225? This can only be T225. 83 cents a thousand cannot necessarily be used to positively calculate other runs if we have his commission, he makes clear there was bulk discounting.

"December 9th, Kedival company, 3,000,000 Athletic cards" - another T225 order? Khedieval did a series of 10 show dogs (T96), 10 aviators (T28), and the 2 series of T225 pugilists.

"January 11th, Surburg company, 5,000 pugilists, banners, handers, that is $285.50" - Surburg is the other issuer of T225-1. The "banners, handers" may refer to the posters featuring the images of the 25 cards. A couple complete ones are known in the hobby, and some handcut cards from it.

"January 11th, the Kedieval company, 5,000 prizefighter banners, reproduction of the cigarette cards on a banner" - yep, it's the T225-1 posters.

'February 23rd, American Tobacco Company, 3,000,000 Fatima cigarette cards, 25 subject, $2,880.00" - T106?

"
ject, $2,880.00. February 25th, Surburg & Company, 2,500 fighting banners, fighters banners, that is a duplicate order, $125.00. February 25th, Kedival Company, 2,500 sighting banners, $125.00; February 26th, Surburg Company, 2,000,000, cigarette cards, duplicates of the fighters ,$1,040. Now, these two order up here were afterwards consolidated and put together, because in getting a larger run they could get a lower price." - more T225-1 and ad materials.

"That made $24,554.05 for my year's business. That is February 26th, and, those orders were brought over to March 1st, 40,000,000 fish cards and 30,000,000 cigarette cards on the 1st, 2nd and 3rd of March." - the fish are T58, don't know the 30,000,000 reference.

"Then, they made those 15,000,000 on March 15th, put them together, so as to get a lower price and have a bigger edition. 40,000,000 fish cards and 30,000,000. And, these were in works in 1909. Mr. Frazier knew of the orders and therefore I was not worrying about my future business. I sold $55,000 the first three days of March 1910. That made me pretty hunky for the [Fullgraff is cutoff mid-sentence]" - Fullgraff made $$$$ off the ATC. $55K for just two of the sets in 3 days was an absurd amount of money in 1910. His commission is bumped up to 10% about this time. He seems to think the Fraziers have cheated him now, but trusts them at the time.


This raises to me the possibility that the ledger/journal is his notes for the 1919 court case, his first time in court he says.
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  #115  
Old 10-28-2021, 09:37 PM
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Page 69: Before Brett, Fullgraff worked "a very short time" on pure commission for Trautman, Blampey & Bailey, lithographers. Before that he worked for "The American Lithographing Company.... seven or eight years". Before that, though possibly not immediately preceeding, he worked as a Lithographer for the Osborn Company.

This confirms the 1904 listing associating him with ALC. He definitely worked there, a very short time before he joined Brett, and for an extended time. He appears to have worked with them in the coming years on projects collaborating with Brett (Why ALC would need, of all things, a lithographer to print their images is not clear unless they are a shadow subsidiary). The letter he has Brett write to ALC recommending him and his work for employment after the cards are done seems even odder, they obviously knew all about Fullgraff and his work and both companies and Fullgraff himself know this very clearly. Again, it very much reads as a formality instead of a sincere letter.
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  #116  
Old 10-29-2021, 01:46 PM
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[/B]

Steve, is that why we see tearing by the alignment marks I've seen it on other sheets and Greg's Jordan panel with the alignment marks on the border is torn.
Were they held down with tape?
They were bound into books, sometimes with string similar to the 1800's albums.

Here's a not so great video showing one in a bit of detail.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZfLR3rf85I

Part 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkFAlTW--Yg

I'm not sure why there would be tearing at the alignment marks. Maybe if they were folding it up there to check something on the layout? But that's just a guess, and probably not a good guess.
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  #117  
Old 10-29-2021, 02:32 PM
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The discussion involving the T218's reminded me of this newspaper clip that I posted here awhile back would this have been T218's or could it have been some other issue? It was in a February 11 1911 newspaper.

[IMG][/IMG]
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  #118  
Old 10-29-2021, 02:39 PM
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Most all of these clearly are not for cards; but the copyright of a product or product logo would, one would think, be owned by the tobacco company, instead of the lithographic company doing their marketing and printing ads in various forms for them. The printer doesn't normally own the logo or name of a product for the firm they are printing ads for.
When they're doing something for an existing company, of course the customer would handle copyrights.

I think what ALC was doing was producing art and names speculatively, maybe to keep the art department going between jobs or as a sales ploy.

If a company wants a new brand, and you can supply the branding images and name instantly because it's already made that's a big plus compared to ATC or anyone else having to have their own people doing the work.

Plus ALC would make the required masters for the packaging and be able to provide those materials very quickly.

If that's the case, and a lot of the cards went through Brett... Oh the stuff that may have been lost! Not only records about the card sets up to the fire, but unreleased material, possibly including proofs or art for speculative backs for brands that ultimately didn't go with baseball or other subjects.
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  #119  
Old 10-29-2021, 03:10 PM
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The discussion involving the T218's reminded me of this newspaper clip that I posted here awhile back would this have been T218's or could it have been some other issue? It was in a February 11 1911 newspaper.

Interesting, itís not T218, E229, T224, T230. None of these have a Robert Williamson in the checklist, or a person in it close to that. I donít know what cigarette card this could beÖ
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  #120  
Old 10-29-2021, 03:13 PM
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When they're doing something for an existing company, of course the customer would handle copyrights.

I think what ALC was doing was producing art and names speculatively, maybe to keep the art department going between jobs or as a sales ploy.

If a company wants a new brand, and you can supply the branding images and name instantly because it's already made that's a big plus compared to ATC or anyone else having to have their own people doing the work.

Plus ALC would make the required masters for the packaging and be able to provide those materials very quickly.

If that's the case, and a lot of the cards went through Brett... Oh the stuff that may have been lost! Not only records about the card sets up to the fire, but unreleased material, possibly including proofs or art for speculative backs for brands that ultimately didn't go with baseball or other subjects.
Prototypes, proofs, cards and whole sets in design stages. Fullgraffs testimony indicates a lot of material was burned up and the bookkeeping departments records lost. It almost hurts to think about the possibilities!
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Old 10-29-2021, 03:14 PM
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Oh, and just looking at that patent summary, it's for a stand up cardboard display where the sides fold back or forward so it can stand up. AND the back portion can be folded so it displays at an angle.

The full text here.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US.../en?oq=1600557
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  #122  
Old 10-29-2021, 03:21 PM
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Interesting, itís not T218, E229, T224, T230. None of these have a Robert Williamson in the checklist, or a person in it close to that. I donít know what cigarette card this could beÖ
It's actually kind of sad I remember doing some research on it and couldn't find anything on a Robert Williamson in any Tobacco sets. I thought maybe it was a card that looked like her brother and she was hoping it was him maybe R.P. Williams
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  #123  
Old 10-29-2021, 03:54 PM
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It's actually kind of sad I remember doing some research on it and couldn't find anything on a Robert Williamson in any Tobacco sets. I thought maybe it was a card that looked like her brother and she was hoping it was him maybe R.P. Williams
If she hasnít seen him in 35 years in 1911, it must be someone older than most of the athletes in T218, which is really a collection of the top track athletes in America in 1908. Williams was a talented sprinter of the 1910 period. Williams is never referred to as Williamson as far as Iíve ever seen. He also never is referred to by his first name though, itís always R.P, and he is one of the more obscure runners in the issue. I donít think this is our man, but I could be wrong.
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  #124  
Old 10-30-2021, 10:42 AM
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If she hasnít seen him in 35 years in 1911, it must be someone older than most of the athletes in T218, which is really a collection of the top track athletes in America in 1908. Williams was a talented sprinter of the 1910 period. Williams is never referred to as Williamson as far as Iíve ever seen. He also never is referred to by his first name though, itís always R.P, and he is one of the more obscure runners in the issue. I donít think this is our man, but I could be wrong.
Makes sense to me Greg, I don't know the set so I was only going off the checklist I thought because she said it was an older photo maybe ther were some athletes that were older when the cards came out like the T220 Donovan.
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