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Help with Authenticity - Ruth, Mantle, Mays
Hey Net54! I'm new to these parts, spend most of my baseball card forum time over at Blowout. I have an opportunity to purchase a pretty sweet collection. A large part of the value consists of a few cards I would really appreciate the expert opinions of this forum on regarding authenticity. I know the pictures included may not be extremely helpful, and I have the opportunity to get better pics but this is what I have currently. The cards I'm curious about are:
-1933 Goudey Sport Kings Babe Ruth -1952 Topps Mays Rc -1953 Mantle -1956 Mantle The seller has an SGC graded 1933 Goudey Gerhig, a nice BGS graded Gretzky RC and some other nice graded vintage cards so its plausible the above 4 cards are all authentic. I question the Sport Kings Ruth the most as I think that's the easiest to fake. FYI the seller has had this collection since the 90's and I'm confident he purchased all of them assuming they were authentic. Thanks in advance for any guidance ya'll can give! I'm obviously super excited about the collection and the opportunity to own such iconic cards but I want to be as informed as I can and tread carefully. Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk |
#2
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Fakes. Wrong stock.
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Thanks, much appreciated. Do the other random raw cards included in the pics look good to you? I now have to question every single card in the collection with any significant value I guess. Which makes it very hard to navigate trying to buy the rest of the collection.
As far as I can tell the 2 biggest cards left in the collection are the Gretzky rookie and the Goudey Gerhig. Both are graded, are you confident in those from the pics? Also included is a mid grade Payton rookie which I feel good about - when the seller was buying that card probably wasn't worth faking. Thanks for your time and knowledge. Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk |
#4
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How about this '52 Topps Eddie Mathews RC? Have these been widely faked or can I have more confidence in this one? The '57 Mays looks nice as well. Same question - how does this one look and are there a lot of counterfeits of this particular card out there?
Opinions welcome! Again, thanks for your time and knowledge to all contributors. Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk |
#5
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Graded Cards
..The graded cards can be examined in hand ? Do you know to look for "frosted" reseals ?..
..On the raw cards though , if a particular issue is never found centered but you are suddenly offered a fantastic group of centered ( but raw ) cards , from that issue , well that should send up a large oversized red-colored flag , one would think ?? ..keep us posted though , since we all love these questions from new members. .. |
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VERY good point on the centering, I should've thought of that. I've been in and out of the hobby since the mid '80's but never had much vintage. Your insight is valued and appreciated, I'm getting a crash course right now and it's fun and exciting to do so. Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk |
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What city do you live in? If you're in the Florida Panhandle, I can probably meet you and review the cards in person. Others in other parts of the country may be able to as well.
I won't be buying, just verifying authenticity. (I'm mjohnatgt over on Blowout, FWIW)
__________________
-- PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head PSA: Regularly Get Cheated BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern SGC: Closed auto authentication business JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC Oh, what a difference a year makes. |
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I decided to start watching Breakout Cards YouTube collection to continue my education. Loving it. Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk |
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It's hard to tell with your pics and the fact the cards are in cubes, but to me the 52 Topps Mays looks way off.
Same, but not as bad, is the Mathews card. Curious. Are those cards in recessed cubes or just flat surfaced cubes? If real, and depending on how tight the cubes were screwed down, and assuming they're real, they may only get an "A" if graded due to them being flattened/squished if the cubes are not recessed? The 56 Mantle also looks suspect to me as well but I can offer no opinion on the others. Good luck.
__________________
52 Topps cards. https://www.flickr.com/photos/144160280@N05/ http://www.net54baseball.com/album.php?albumid=922 |
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I'm assuming both Mantles, the Mays and the Ruth are fakes at this point. I'm curious on the Mathews, and will remove both the Mays and the Mathews from the screw downs and compare them. The surface feel, smell, card width. He has a few other low grade '52 commons I can compare the Mathews too as well. It may be safest to assume all the authentic cards in screw downs will only grade A, but man that's a blow to any offer I give him and I want to be fair. Regardless, I'm having a blast trying to figure all this out! Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk |
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Hopefully Mays and Mathews are real. Both look really nicely centered and that is hard to find, especially with the Mathews. Pricey card, as is Mays.
__________________
52 Topps cards. https://www.flickr.com/photos/144160280@N05/ http://www.net54baseball.com/album.php?albumid=922 |
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Sadly, looks like the person with that collection had more money than skill. Would have been best to stick to graded.
Most of the valuable ungraded looks very fake and bad fakes on some. The 52 Mays is godawful. The Ruth is absolutely fake, as is the 56 Mantle and 52 Mathews. The 53 Mantle is a maybe at best without a better pic as is Payton. The graded look somewhat good by percentage, but there are a few that need a bit of closer examination. Unfortunately, I have very strong doubts on your Goudey Lou Gehrig not being a reseal, so much looks wrong with it. The graded sport kings look good as does the Gretzky. It’s a very dangerous mix.
__________________
- Justin D. Player collecting - Lance Parrish, Jim Davenport, John Norlander. Successful B/S/T with - Highstep74, Northviewcats, pencil1974, T2069bk, tjenkins, wilkiebaby11, baez578, Bocabirdman, maddux31, Leon, Just-Collect, bigfish, quinnsryche...and a whole bunch more, I stopped keeping track, lol. Last edited by JustinD; 05-20-2023 at 02:08 PM. |
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Not saying this is the case with your seller, but many times a scam artist will include a couple of authentic, lower valued, cards in the mix to throw you off on the authentication process. Look for all the obvious clues, coloring, format, etc.
If all seems ok, take a bright light and shine it through the back of the card for transparency - no light should come through in the 50s and earlier cards. Then take a loop, or magnifying device that can magnify up to 100x. Use the loop, or device, and check the print dots on the card. Counterfeit operations, in most cases, cannot duplicate the printing methods of the 40s - 50s. Go on-line and read about modern print dots as compared to print dots in the 50s and earlier. If it passes all these steps, and they probably won't, you can be about 50-65% sure they are real. Hope this helps. P.S. I always walk away from a deal if I find any counterfeits - one bad apple does spoil the bunch for me - unless it is someone that I've known a long time. |
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The Gehrig breaks my heart that it's even a question. What in particular about it gives you such misgivings? I'll definitely take better pictures of it and will research the frosting/resealing possibility. The SGC slab was created in 2008 and the cert checks out, but obviously it would with a reseal. I'm glad about the Gretzky. He's got the set, bought it as such. That may end up being by far the most valuable real card. I feel like I'm wading through a waist deep swamp with gators all around! Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk |
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I'll definitely get a loupe and a light and will start practicing, thanks for the direction. Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk |
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__________________
- Justin D. Player collecting - Lance Parrish, Jim Davenport, John Norlander. Successful B/S/T with - Highstep74, Northviewcats, pencil1974, T2069bk, tjenkins, wilkiebaby11, baez578, Bocabirdman, maddux31, Leon, Just-Collect, bigfish, quinnsryche...and a whole bunch more, I stopped keeping track, lol. |
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The 52 Topps Mays and Mathews look bad to me.
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I will be going on a business trip to San Antonio this summer to visit the AF bases there, so I might be able to help. Although I'm sure there are a ton of board members that could meet you sooner.
You could also take them into a local trading card shop or show (many people here go to the Dallas show) and would inspect them for you in person for free. Sometimes the card graders will be at that show, and Beckett is headquartered in Dallas and could get your cards back same day.
__________________
-- PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head PSA: Regularly Get Cheated BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern SGC: Closed auto authentication business JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC Oh, what a difference a year makes. |
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Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk |
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Not to sound mean, but you shouldn’t be buying any of these cards. It doesn’t seem like you have a ton of experience detecting fakes at this point, and the seller is either inexperienced or crooked as well. So, you have two people going in to a sale that have no idea. It may be worth just waiting a bit until you’ve got more experience.
__________________
Mantle Master Set - as complete as it is going to get Yankees Game Used Hat Style Run (1923-2017): 57/60 (missing 2008/9 holiday hats & 2017 Players Weekend) |
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If there are counterfeits mixed in, the seller either (a) doesn't know what they're doing or (b) knows exactly what they're doing. Either scenario is generally bad for a buyer.
__________________
Eric Perry Currently collecting: T206 (132/524) 1956 Topps Baseball (193/342) "You can observe a lot by just watching." - Yogi Berra |
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I was astute enough to come here and ask for help when I realized I was in over my head, and you guys have been immensely helpful. This forum is legendary in the card world, and yall haven't disappointed. I watch Ken Burns Baseball every year before opening day. I love baseball, it's magical to me. My favorite movie is Field of Dreams. I freely admit I'm in over my head, and I'll probably make an offer on the collection sans any big ungraded cards. The Gehrig is still a question mark but I'll figure it out. Sometimes life circumstances call for riding out into the unknown, into danger on the frontier. This is one of those times for me and I'm determined to thrive in it, though I may bleed some along the way. Thanks for looking out regardless. I mean that. Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk |
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Take up one of the offers from a local member to check or maybe a good auction house like heritage could look at the Dallas Show. I wouldn’t use the local card shop check personally unless they specialize in vintage. Most local card shops know less than my wife on this and just know modern and Pokémon.
__________________
- Justin D. Player collecting - Lance Parrish, Jim Davenport, John Norlander. Successful B/S/T with - Highstep74, Northviewcats, pencil1974, T2069bk, tjenkins, wilkiebaby11, baez578, Bocabirdman, maddux31, Leon, Just-Collect, bigfish, quinnsryche...and a whole bunch more, I stopped keeping track, lol. |
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I’ll second what another poster said about SGC slabs. I had a $2,000 card fall out on my floor once and there was no visible frosting on the slab after—the card was legit and fortunately wasn’t damaged so no concern. But just something to keep in mind regarding their slabs, which could theoretically be resealed after…. I’ve got a PSA slab I have to try resealing just to see…
__________________
Mantle Master Set - as complete as it is going to get Yankees Game Used Hat Style Run (1923-2017): 57/60 (missing 2008/9 holiday hats & 2017 Players Weekend) |
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Go to SportsCards Plus in San Antonio at 2251 Lockhill Selma 78230. Check their web site for hours. Ask to see Charlie DiPietro the owner and ask him to take a look at the cards and tell you if he thinks they are legit. Best to have any of the ungraded cards out of any current plastic tombs when you go
John— if you get to San Antonio would be happy to buy you lunch if we are in town. |
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I do not know if Charlie will be comfortable giving an opinion based on just pictures. I would not. I assumed you would be taking the cards themselves.
His shop is predominantly basketball because as you are aware that is San Antonio’s only major sport, but he has always had some inventory of older baseball cards and I have on occasion shared some of my Topps items with him He is not always there. He has a son who often works the store. He may have some baseball expertise as well but am not sure |
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Sports Cards Plus is built on unopened wax. They move really big volume, probably one of the biggest sellers of wax to the end user in the country as far as card shops go. I've always gotten the impression that singles aren't a focus, though they do have a decent selection in their display cases. Jeff, his son, is knowledgeable in a lot of ways but I wouldn't say he has much experience in vintage as far as I know. Regardless, it's worth a trip for me to go over there and at least have a conversation, maybe Charlie has more expertise than I assumed. Appreciated. Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk |
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Will let you know when I make plans to visit. My Wing at Eglin has two units at Lackland, and the Personnel Center is at Randolph. Now that I'm a hiring manager for AF Civilians, I figured it would be good to take a visit and introduce myself, if that would help anything.
__________________
-- PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head PSA: Regularly Get Cheated BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern SGC: Closed auto authentication business JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC Oh, what a difference a year makes. |
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A fake card is fake, regardless of one's comfort level. If someone is trying to sell a fake, and I've identified the card as fake, I won't deal with them. Period.
__________________
Eric Perry Currently collecting: T206 (132/524) 1956 Topps Baseball (193/342) "You can observe a lot by just watching." - Yogi Berra |
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I get what you're saying, as others here have mentioned. You've learned from experience to draw that hard line when counterfeits appear. Perhaps I'm being naive in thinking I can navigate this whole thing and all you guys are just shaking your heads with the knowledge I'm going to come back with a sob story at some point. Your collective experiences are pointing to me running quickly away from this as far and fast as I can. I get it. But I'll never learn if I don't take risks, and me passing on the cards in question if it comes down to it and acquiring the rest of the collection at good value seems like a good, measured risk to me. Will I find more fakes in the piece of the collection I buy? Likely. But if I account for this likelihood in the deal itself I shouldn't get hurt too bad in the grand scheme of things. At least this is what I'm telling my naive, inexperienced self! Regardless, I appreciate everyone's efforts in attempting to guide me. I am listening and internalizing. Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk |
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One of my best purchases at a card show in Pensacola was a signed 1933 Goudey that the seller didn't even realize was autographed until I pointed it out. He also had some counterfeit T206 cards that were cut out of the Dover reprint guide. I told him those were counterfeit, and he apologized for his ignorance and destroyed the fakes in front of me. I then bought the Goudey. His other stuff was all correct, he just didn't think someone would have fake T206s in such poor shape (trimmed/creased) in a collection he bought.
__________________
-- PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head PSA: Regularly Get Cheated BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern SGC: Closed auto authentication business JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC Oh, what a difference a year makes. |
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Hey Gents,
So I bought the collection sans the Mantles, Ruth, '52 Mays and Mathews and the Killebrew RC. I ended up buying a loup with an LED light and black light and learned what to look for. But once I got to the sellers place and got my hands on the cards above I was convinced pretty immediately they were counterfeits. I showed him the print dot differences, glow under the black light and the difference in the feel of the cards and he agreed with me. I bought the Goudey Gehrig with a guarantee of money back if proved fake, and took the card to the local card shop. The owner felt good about it. Thanks for all the help! I'm planning on hanging around these boards and soaking in knowledge for many years to come. Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk |
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Heck of a find of sports kings
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ssn...75.m3561.l2562 |
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https://www.moreanauctions.com/catalog.aspx |
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