Thoughts on Third Party Graders?

[Bagwell-1994]

As a new/novice collector, it seems there's a tremendous wealth of knowledge held by the folks here on these forums. I would like to know your thoughts on third party graders.

PSA seems to be the largest/most desirable grader, especially with consideration to resale value. Is this assessment true?

SGC seems to rank 2nd most popular but I've read in an article or two that they are even better than PSA with regard to pre-war vintage cards.

BVG seems to be a distant 3rd especially with regard to resale value.

I'm basing my assessments from the statistics at vintagecardprices.com that I've seen.

Why would you desire a PSA versus an SGC versus a BVG graded card? Is it mostly just personal preference? Dependent on the era? Dependent on if you plan to sale the card in the future?

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[Peter_Spaeth]

There are literally 100 or more threads on this topic already, suggest you search the archives.

[Goudey77]

Valid question. But since you are a member of VCP I think you have your answer $$$. TPG’s aren’t perfect and all will have experienced controversial issues. But ultimately I wouldn’t get too hung up with any one TPG. Buy the cards you want and if submitting raw cards for grading go with what fits your objectives. If it’s resale then go with PSA. There are so many variables depending on type of card being graded as well. Bazooka handcut cards for instance will have stricter guidelines by PSA standards. Some claim SGC has stricter standards for pre war.
It’s nice to have choices.

[doug.goodman]

What do I think about "the people who get paid for their opinions"?

Well, the most famous card with a paid opinion was graded incorrectly, so that's a good place to start.

Doug "still trimming cards hoping for an 8" Goodman

[ALR-bishop]

Doug has been consistent on this issue in every one of the 100 threads Peter mentioned

[Bagwell-1994]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There are literally 100 or more threads on this topic already, suggest you search the archives.

Ah ok. I'll try search next time before creating new thread. Apologies.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Bagwell-1994

Ah ok. I'll try search next time before creating new thread. Apologies.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Don't apologize, I can always use another thread to make fun of "the people who get paid for their opinions"...

Doug "beating a dead horse is my thing" Goodman

[slipk1068]

As much as I dislike them, before they existed, buying a card through the mail was like the wild west. NM cards with creases, stains, etc. At least now, you have a clue what to expect.

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by slipk1068

As much as I dislike them, before they existed, buying a card through the mail was like the wild west. NM cards with creases, stains, etc. At least now, you have a clue what to expect.

This.

[Bagwell-1994]

Originally Posted by slipk1068

As much as I dislike them, before they existed, buying a card through the mail was like the wild west. NM cards with creases, stains, etc. At least now, you have a clue what to expect.

I prefer graded cards now and I prefer PSA (unless they're really old cards then SGC is fine). When I first began buying cards, I bought a bunch of raw 1941 Play Ball cards from different people on Ebay. I eventually sent them in to SGC for grading at $10/pop. Nearly every one of them came back as "SGC A for Altered". This experience kind of ruined me regarding raw cards.

[DeanH3]

Here are my opinions.

PSA generally brings higher prices for key registry issues like T206, T205, Cracker Jack, '33/'34 Goudey and post war issues.

SGC is a very close second on those and equal or not better on the other pre-war issues, especially caramels.

The mantra of "buy the card not the holder" is essential.

Good luck on your journey. From your previous pick ups, you're off to a hell of a start.

Wanted to add - cards that show superior eye appeal for their respective grade, centering in particular, are bringing big premiums in both PSA/SGC slabs.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by slipk1068

As much as I dislike them, before they existed, buying a card through the mail was like the wild west. NM cards with creases, stains, etc. At least now, you have a clue what to expect.

Before they existed every phone didn't have a camera...

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by Bagwell-1994

I prefer graded cards now and I prefer PSA (unless they're really old cards then SGC is fine). When I first began buying cards, I bought a bunch of raw 1941 Play Ball cards from different people on Ebay. I eventually sent them in to SGC for grading at $10/pop. Nearly every one of them came back as "SGC A for Altered". This experience kind of ruined me regarding raw cards.

Too bad that their OPINION of yours was altered but their OPINION of that other TRIMMED card that the entire business was built on was NM-MT.

And, before somebody ignores my obvious point, when I say "their" I mean opinion sellers in general, not that specific one.

Doug "to each his own" Goodman

[oldjudge]

PSA gets the highest prices
PSA has the best registry
PSA is extremely consistent
PSA has great customer service

It's not that SGC does a bad job, but given the above why would anyone not use PSA?

[sycks22]

It always baffles me how they can charge $5k to grade a high end card. I wish my opinion was worth $5k for a minute of work.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

PSA gets the highest prices
PSA has the best registry
PSA is extremely consistent
PSA has great customer service

It's not that SGC does a bad job, but given the above why would anyone not use PSA?

I TRUST SGC much more than PSA, especially on very old cards and very rare cards. PSA beats in most things, but when it comes to cards before 1930, I trust SGC’s opinion of authenticity - PSA screws up too often on these in my opinion

[Goudey77]

Being a new guy around here I’d like someone to elaborate on this claim. Do you have examples? I’d love to read about it.

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

I TRUST SGC much more than PSA, especially on very old cards and very rare cards. PSA beats in most things, but when it comes to cards before 1930, I trust SGC’s opinion of authenticity - PSA screws up too often on these in my opinion

[xplainer]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

PSA gets the highest prices
PSA has the best registry
PSA is extremely consistent
PSA has great customer service

It's not that SGC does a bad job, but given the above why would anyone not use PSA?

There are so many post I agree with. But I chose this one to comment on.

PSA is almost always late on their projected turn arounfd times. SGC almost always meets theirs. You get what you pay for with them. Research and see what the first card graded by PSA was, and then question why was this their first card?

Personally, I go with SGC because I do not trust PSA. However, that is submitting.

I will buy PSA graded, I will not submit to them. Everyone thinks PSA is infallible. But I don’t.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidse.../#2ea759da7854

[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

PSA gets the highest prices
PSA has the best registry
PSA is extremely consistent
PSA has great customer service

It's not that SGC does a bad job, but given the above why would anyone not use PSA?

Jay, I give you a grade of 75% - 3 out of 4 correct. "PSA is extremely consistent" - Say what?!!

[Rhotchkiss]

[QUOTE=Goudey77;1860759]Being a new guy around here I’d like someone to elaborate on this claim. Do you have examples? I’d love to read about it.[/QUOTE

Badgers game us on and I am not going into it, but somewhere here is a thread about a PSA 4, T206 Brown Old Mill that was for sale on eBay - first, it was not a brown old mill, it was mislabeled (a $15k+ mistake), plus if it was a brown OM it should not have gotten a numerical grade. That is one of many examples

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Jay, I give you a grade of 75% - 3 out of 4 correct. "PSA is extremely consistent" - Say what?!!

Perhaps he meant to say consistently inconsistent.

You cannot sell a card before you buy it.

If you pay $10 for a GHI card and sell it for $20, you have doubled your money.
If you pay $20 for an LMNOP card and sell it for $40, you have doubled your money.
If you pay $40 for an XYZ card and sell it for $80, you have doubled your money.

If you buy the card and not the holder, the alphabet is irrelevant.

To say XYZ is the "only way to go" because they sell for more ignores ROI.

I buy all three if the price is right, and in time sell all three for a comparable ROI.

I've said this before and am either ignored or represent a minority of one, but it works for me and I can prove it.

If PSA were to become a monopoly, don't expect turn around times to improve, don't expect a more consistent product, and furthermore don't expect their prices to drop.

Competition should improve service, improve quality and should result in lower cost as well.

[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by ValKehl

Jay, I give you a grade of 75% - 3 out of 4 correct. "PSA is extremely consistent" - Say what?!!

Perhaps he meant to say consistently inconsistent.

You cannot sell a card before you buy it.

If you pay $10 for a GHI card and sell it for $20, you have doubled your money.
If you pay $20 for an LMNOP card and sell it for $40, you have doubled your money.
If you pay $40 for an XYZ card and sell it for $80, you have doubled your money.

If you buy the card and not the holder, the alphabet is irrelevant.

To say XYZ is the "only way to go" because they sell for more ignores ROI.

I buy all three if the price is right, and in time sell all three for a comparable ROI.

I've said this before and am either ignored or represent a minority of one, but it works for me and I can prove it.

If PSA were to become a monopoly, don't expect turn around times to improve, don't expect a more consistent product, and furthermore don't expect their prices to drop.

Competition should improve service, should improve quality and should result in lower cost as well. It may not seem that way, but the alternative could be very disappointing.

[Yastrzemski Sports]

PSA is the best for old cards. But you do see a lot of auction companies using SGC now because the turn around times are so much better.

PSA or BGS is good for newer cards. In some cases BGS is preferred.

[Dpeck100]

My primary goal when I submit a card for grading is to increase its value. If you are going to invest additional funds into a collectible you own you certainly want to try and recoup your investment and then have some return on it. I do send in a few cards where I know I probably will lose but not many.

PSA dominates in general but there are obviously loads of cards in BGS and SGC holders that go for big money so you need to make the decision that best suites your interests. With vintage card collectors, virtually no one considers BVG as their first choice but they might choose SGC and on a modern card SGC would be their last choice.

I made a conscious decision early on to build my collection in PSA slabs as they are the third party grader with the strongest brand and you can generally assume that if you start collecting a certain set that additional submissions will occur and you now have a more active chance to build your sets or fill spots in your collection.

There are very few industries that exist where one participant has so much market share. In the card grading world it does and PSA is the dominating force. There is no getting around that point. People can debate all kinds of factors in regards to the companies but market share is just a real world stat that can't be disputed.

The public has truly embraced graded collectibles so I would choose the route that best works for you and go with it.

[Rhotchkiss]

Case in point (no pun intended) - check out the two e90-2 Wagners in REA. They are both graded 4 - one by PSA, one by SGC. In my opinion, the SGC is the superior card, yet it is currently sitting at $1,000 less than it’s PSA counterpart.

People will pay more for the PSA flip (case), even if the card is inferior to one in an SGC case. I will take the superior card for less in an SGC case all day long on vintage (pre 1920 cards), especially if it’s rare. If I collected “new” cards (i.e., 1930 and newer), I would want the card in s PSA flip just bc the cards are commodities and the market values these commodities more in a PSA flip.

Also, I just trust SGC’s authentication skills more on the really old stuff.

BTW- I own neither Wagner.

[Leon]

I was looking at those Wags too. People are idiots.
If it is a registry card then PSA. If not, then I would go with someone else. Personally, I won't submit to PSA again as I don't think they grade as well as the other 2. And even though I don't think they grade as well as SGC or BVG their marketing apparently makes up for it. People are idiots. Buy the holder LOL

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Case in point (no pun intended) - check out the two e90-2 Wagners in REA. They are both graded 4 - one by PSA, one by SGC. In my opinion, the SGC is the superior card, yet it is currently sitting at $1,000 less than it’s PSA counterpart.

People will pay more for the PSA flip (case), even if the card is inferior to one in an SGC case. I will take the superior card for less in an SGC case all day long on vintage (pre 1920 cards), especially if it’s rare. If I collected “new” cards (i.e., 1930 and newer), I would want the card in s PSA flip just bc the cards are commodities and the market values these commodities more in a PSA flip.

Also, I just trust SGC’s authentication skills more on the really old stuff.

BTW- I own neither Wagner.

[AGuinness]

While there are many threads about TPGs on the board, I think it's useful every so often to re-ignite the discussion as things evolve and change. In the past six months, just look at the various threads here and on BO about trimmed cards, forgeries, etc. in slabs. Plus, grading criteria seem to change over time, and there are changes in flips, slabs, etc. It's useful to reexamine things from time to time.
That said, the most universal advice in the debate (which is hammered on here and rightfully so) is "buy the card and not the slab." And part of that includes taking responsibility for understanding the issue, doing your research and drawing your own conclusions from the photos (or from a first-hand view if you go to a show, LCS, etc.). Another aspect is to develop your own preferences on what you want with centering, wear, etc. in the issues you're looking for.
If you can hone your skills on pegging condition, understand the card issue's red flags and adhere to your own preferences and values, it will matter so much less what company sealed the card in plastic.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by Leon

I was looking at those Wags too. People are idiots.
If it is a registry card then PSA. If not, then I would go with someone else. Personally, I won't submit to PSA again as I don't think they grade as well as the other 2. And even though I don't think they grade as well as SGC or BVG their marketing apparently makes up for it. People are idiots. Buy the holder LOL

yes, people are idiots. But there is no disputing that PSA brings the bucks. And that is why people submit to them over and over again.

[ToddW.]

I've been looking into this quite a bit, and certainly there are lots of examples that deviate from the norm. But one aspect that continues to confuse me is why there isn't significant cross-over investment activity. A few points/questions:

- It seems to be agreed by most that graded-PSA increases resale value (and there are plenty of examples of that).

- Some people assert SGC is the "better / more consistent" grader. I don't have a view on that necessarily, but I have seen (and own) plenty examples of SGC cards that clearly look "better" (to me) than comparably graded PSA cards.

- If we assume the first points are correct, wouldn't an opportunity to buy SGC, convert to PSA and resell be an easy decision (even including costs of regrading or converting)?

But it doesn't seem like it. I've seen many "cross-over" type threads on various forums where the grade from PSA was lower than an SGC grade. Not all the times, but that seems to be the case more often than not. Which prompts all sorts of questions. Is there a significant difference between eye-appeal (how collectors might view a card) and technical grading where one company is harsher than another on certain aspect that are irrelevant to eye-appeal? If there is a sense that a card has been graded by SGC (sent in SGC slab), does PSA grade it lower intentionally? Doesn't seem like that could merely be the result of marketing and market dominance. There is more there, it would seem. I ask because I have a number of SGC slabs that look better than many of their PSA counterparts, and have thought about crossing them over (for registry and consistency), but worry about the PSA grade. At the end of the day the card doesn't change and if I own it I wanted it, but it seems like it would effect investment results.

Now, left out of this is authenticity discussions for older cards. I can't speak to that, but it seems like some/many believe SGC is better in this area. That would further support that cross-over opportunity should be even more desirable. Get a better chance at an "authentic" then cross-over for gain.

I don't know the answers, but it seems like there is something that isn't explained (or at least I don't understand). Yes, buy the card is easy, but there are lots of factors to consider.

[DeanH3]

I'm firmly believe that PSA is very reluctant to cross deserving SGC cards at the same grade. Lower grade cards (1-3) do have a better shot. But mid grade and higher, good luck.

[oldjudge]

PSA has different grading standards than SGC. SGC is much less strict on centering. Everyone has their favorites and like I said mine is PSA.

[Goudey77]

My experience with SGC is overall lenient on surfaces and edges when compared to PSA. This is well documented in higher end cards. Mid to low grade will not have this variance between the TPG’s