NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for BSelling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
ebay GSB
T206s on Ebay
Pre-WWII Cards
Post WWII Cards
Vintage Memorabilia
Babe Ruth Cards
Ty Cobb Cards
Lou Gehrig Cards
Mickey Mantle Cards
Goudey Cards
Bowman Cards
T205s on Ebay
Tobacco "T" Cards
Caramel "E" Cards
Vintage Baseball Postcards
Football Cards on Ebay
Exhibit Cards
Strip Cards
Baking Cards
Sporting News
Playball Cards on Ebay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Main Forum - WWII & Older Baseball Cards > Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-10-2020, 09:38 AM
Dpeck100's Avatar
Dpeck100 Dpeck100 is offline
David Peck
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 1,050
Default 1953 Topps PSA 10 Mickey Mantle IPO on Collectible App a Game Changer

Earlier this week I learned of an app that can be found in the app store simply called Collectable. It offers the ability to purchase shares in sports memorabilia in small amounts and they become tradable. I didn't even give it consideration until I spoke with a client who has done this with art and these are registered with the SEC. I purchased $10,000 or 400 shares and after doing so spoke with him so I have an email into my manager to make sure I can finalize the purchase as I am a registered broker. I sure hope I can. This information is important because this is the layer of protection people need to make this work.

This is a game changer for the high end of the trading card market. You have many issues at play.

First most simply can't afford cards in the six figure plus price range. I read daily about people going to their safety deposit box periodically to visit their cards. While I like to see mine many don't see theirs very frequently so in this case it is non event. There is also the element of stocks and bonds where they are really just pieces of paper and so one can think of the card as just the same.

Next you have the impact of people buying high end items to break up in value. We have seen a huge surge in pack breaks and this is driving unopened up as smaller pieces are sold off at a premium. The same will hold true here.

The secondary market for shares will on many items see a surge in interest driving the cards value even higher than what it might trade at on its own. There are a lot of smaller investors that in mass can drive something to a premium vs. just a whale buying on their own.

Next you have the issue of simply investment. It is taboo with some but cards have performed extremely well and marquee items in particular. This is going to make investing in cards so much easier as the barriers to entry ala money to get the good stuff are lowered immensely. I see many people loving the idea of having an investment portfolio made up of top tier items and seeing if they can keep pace with other tradable assets.

The liquidity of being able to buy and sell without finding a natural buyer for the card is brilliant. No shipping. No worrying about if the buyer is legit. Will they return it etc.

I am very hopeful I can follow through with this purchase and others in the future. When I put in my order it was already 40% sold out in minutes so clearly others like this idea.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 65FA2BAF-16E7-4907-B6D4-D7DEEAB1EAB8.jpg (7.2 KB, 1050 views)

Last edited by Dpeck100; 09-10-2020 at 09:39 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-10-2020, 09:47 AM
luciobar1980 luciobar1980 is offline
Lucio Barbarino
Lu.cio Barb.arino
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 571
Default

Hmmm
__________________
~10 SUCCESSFUL BST (1 trade) on Net54
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-10-2020, 09:53 AM
ocjack's Avatar
ocjack ocjack is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: The big OC - California
Posts: 276
Default

Interesting read. But wasn't something like this tried several years back and from what I remember - failed?

Also, what happens when the asset is determined to be "altered" and the grade invalidated. Does Collectable insure the asset and compensate investors if they failed in their due dilligence? Or do the shares of the asset simply go "boom?" And just as an fyi, besides your investment in this item, do you or any of your associates/family have an additional interest in this company?

Always better to ask questions up front.

Thanks.

Last edited by ocjack; 09-10-2020 at 09:57 AM. Reason: Additional questions
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-10-2020, 09:54 AM
Jcosta19's Avatar
Jcosta19 Jcosta19 is offline
Justin
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 201
Default

They are selling $2.5 million worth of shares for the 53 Topps PSA 10.

Seems crazy to me, but I'm no investing expert.

Also not a good sign when this is what happens when I try to go to their website.


Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-10-2020, 10:16 AM
Dpeck100's Avatar
Dpeck100 Dpeck100 is offline
David Peck
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 1,050
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ocjack View Post
Interesting read. But wasn't something like this tried several years back and from what I remember - failed?

Also, what happens when the asset is determined to be "altered" and the grade invalidated. Does Collectable insure the asset and compensate investors if they failed in their due dilligence? Or do the shares of the asset simply go "boom?" And just as an fyi, besides your investment in this item, do you or any of your associates/family have an additional interest in this company?

Always better to ask questions up front.

Thanks.

I just heard about it this week. No affiliation with anyone.

I have no comment on the part about the card being altered.

You are going to see a lot of this coming I believe.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-10-2020, 10:57 AM
swarmee's Avatar
swarmee swarmee is offline
J0hn Raff3rty
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Niceville FL
Posts: 5,098
Default

Isn't this fractional thing already being done by multiple apps? I recall an Altered or PSA 1 T206 Wagner has already been divided. Once the IPO sells out, does this sale of a card for $2.5 Million get added to the PSA Auction Prices Realized website? It should, right?

Currently it's a Pop 2, but there are also 10 PSA 9s and 4 PSA 8.5s. If the Pop goes to 4, does it even register with the fractional owners? You guys have at it. It's not for me, but then, I've probably said that before.
__________________
--
PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head
PSA: Regularly Get Cheated
BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern
SGC: Closed auto authentication business
JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC
Oh, what a difference a year makes.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-10-2020, 11:08 AM
xplainer's Avatar
xplainer xplainer is offline
Jimmy Knowle$
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: North Florida
Posts: 1,254
Default

Sounds similar to purchasing stocks on CashApp.
I do this time to time and have made a little change.
Little the key word.

I guess this work on a high value card, like discussed.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-10-2020, 11:43 AM
Dpeck100's Avatar
Dpeck100 Dpeck100 is offline
David Peck
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 1,050
Default

There may be other apps doing this. I just know this concept is going to make waves in the market.

A client first told me about this and has bought art this way and it has been extremely successful. The major difference is you can't cash out until the item sells.

The seller has to turn this card over to the holding company and it will be held just like gold is in an etf.

In terms of sale price I would think it has to recognized as the sale price.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-10-2020, 12:04 PM
Snapolit1's Avatar
Snapolit1 Snapolit1 is offline
Ste.ve Na.polit.ano
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 3,544
Default

Hard pass on all these outfits.
Yeah, always the type of thing that comes up when its impossible for stuff to lose value. Ha ha.
No thanks. I'd rather own an entire PSA 5 and be able to hold it when I want to. And sell it or not sell it. This sort of arrangement has zero appeal to me. But, as they say, to each his own.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-10-2020, 12:14 PM
Rhotchkiss's Avatar
Rhotchkiss Rhotchkiss is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 2,199
Default

How are the shares taxed on sale?

How is collectible/the sponsor compensated?
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 09-10-2020, 12:19 PM
Snapolit1's Avatar
Snapolit1 Snapolit1 is offline
Ste.ve Na.polit.ano
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 3,544
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss View Post
How are the shares taxed on sale?

How is collectible/the sponsor compensated?
Having been part of a few race horse partnerships, the house always gets paid nicely. Yes, they do "all the work" but they also get most of the fun too.

Last edited by Snapolit1; 09-10-2020 at 12:20 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 09-10-2020, 12:25 PM
Dpeck100's Avatar
Dpeck100 Dpeck100 is offline
David Peck
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 1,050
Default

It states you will get a 1099 if you make transactions and only references dividends. Not sure on taxes.

Obviously this isn't for everyone but you are going to see a lot of people get involved in this kind of situation.

Cards have proven to be an incredible alternative asset class and people want in and so this concept makes all the since in the world.

I would love to own a Jordan 10 but it would tie up too much of my liquid cash in one card and so I am someone who this is perfect for. To be able to put say 5k or 10k in one and share the upside or downside with others is tremendous.

My investments in trading cards have been the best ones I have ever made in my life on a percentage basis and I continue to believe in the market so if someone wants to put more money in and have liquidity and diversify into bigger and better cards this is a concept that allows for that and I believe will become quite popular.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 09-10-2020, 12:29 PM
Dpeck100's Avatar
Dpeck100 Dpeck100 is offline
David Peck
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 1,050
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapolit1 View Post
Having been part of a few race horse partnerships, the house always gets paid nicely. Yes, they do "all the work" but they also get most of the fun too.
Your point is well taken but it isn't a good analogy in this case. Horses need to fed and trained. A card sits in a vault.

Time will tell how this plays out but judging from the art side it has just put more fire under high quality pieces and I believe the same will happen here.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 09-10-2020, 01:02 PM
samosa4u's Avatar
samosa4u samosa4u is offline
Ran-jodh Dh.ill0n
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Toronto
Posts: 848
Default

__________________
Successful transactions on Net54: Peter_Spaeth, rustywilly, esehombre, scooter729, NiceDocter, Mishu2nite, wolf441, jdeptula, mckinneyj and more!
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 09-10-2020, 01:11 PM
trambo's Avatar
trambo trambo is offline
Troy Rambo
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Ohio
Posts: 312
Default

Collectable was an app that used to be used to track all of the auction house listings in one place. They were going to monetize (I think) by ad revenue and/or subscription. It was pretty awesome to use but about a year ago they stopped supporting it and i believe they sold it to the current people who are doing the fractional share as discussed.

I think the model is pretty interesting in general for cards like a Wagner, 52 Mantle, 86 Jordan Gem Mint (PSA or SGC) and cards of that class. Not sure if I'd ever invest in fractional shares of something if I knew the price was inflated to current market estimates versus what any seller of these said. In the case of the Wagner fractional share, it looked like the purchaser of the card had a 15-20% markup built into their model from their purchase price and likely got something on the back end at the terminal event (sale).

Certainly the model can work but doing a fair bit more research would be required (at least for me anyway). I'll likely stick to cards I can buy versus parts of one I wouldn't otherwise be able to buy. Still an interesting concept, though! Good luck to those who are going for it!
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 09-10-2020, 01:37 PM
MattyC's Avatar
MattyC MattyC is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,076
Default

I’m giving it a whirl. Beautiful card and other versions of this fractional ownership stuff have done very well.

Last edited by MattyC; 09-10-2020 at 01:38 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 09-10-2020, 01:55 PM
Sean1125 Sean1125 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 3,585
Default

Other platforms have seen some success with low liquidity (one trading window every 3-4 months).

This will be far more successful with daily trading.

This one offers trading Monday to Friday. Awesome.

Liquidity on a secondary market. The actual card is the stock.

I saw this card in a binder and know it's origin collection which was in my backyard. Finest '53 Mantle and 100% unaltered, which is difficult to say in today's market.

Happy to own some of it.

I'm in.
__________________
Collectibles Investment Group

Buying:
  • Sports and Non-Sports cards, autographs, and memorabilia
  • Comic Books
  • Paper Money
  • Gold and Silver Coins and Jewelry
  • Vintage Toys and Video Games

Last edited by Sean1125; 09-10-2020 at 01:59 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 09-10-2020, 02:34 PM
RL's Avatar
RL RL is offline
Randy L
member
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Michigan
Posts: 47
Default

easy to pass on this.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 09-10-2020, 02:46 PM
rjackson44's Avatar
rjackson44 rjackson44 is offline
octavio ranzola
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Manhattan , congers ny
Posts: 4,406
Default

Id rather own the card or cards,imo horrible investment ,,run fast!!
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 09-10-2020, 02:52 PM
japhi japhi is offline
Ma.tt Lan.dry
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 114
Default

Illiquid investment that kicks off no income and has very high feeís. Sign me up now!
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 09-10-2020, 03:29 PM
Dpeck100's Avatar
Dpeck100 Dpeck100 is offline
David Peck
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 1,050
Default

When I started the thread I knew the lion share of this group would poo poo it and I also thought it would be a good idea just to let people know what is about to hit the memorabilia market.

Here you have a PSA 1 Wagner that just sold for $1,146,000 through Mile High.

https://www.milehighcardco.com/1909_...-LOT72191.aspx

Wagner prior sales

Two PSA PR-FR1 Honus Wagners sold for $109,638 in 2004 and $132,000 in 2005

A PSA PR-FR 1 Honus Wagner sold for $400,000 in 2009

A PSA Poor 1 Honus Wagner sold for $402,900 in 2013

A PSA Poor 1 Wagner sold for $609,294 in 2017

A PSA Poor 1 Wagner sold for $1,169,875 in 2020


Every single one of you would have said the same thing at each of these times.

Perhaps this card doesn't turn into a home run but there will be some that will for sure. The creation of mutual funds and pushing them to the masses helped stock prices move from single digit price earnings multiples to some north of a 1000.

I am not suggesting this is as novel of a concept of Jeff Bazos coming on CNBC in 1999 and basically forecasting the future of commerce and having multitudes of people laugh at him only to go on to the be the richest person on the planet but do not full yourselves into thinking this won't have a dynamic impact on the collectables market. Many will choose to participate and many will choose not to but this is going to increase demand. It is that simple.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 09-10-2020, 03:51 PM
benjulmag benjulmag is offline
CoreyRS.hanus
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 641
Default

IMO there is a significant difference between investing in a rarity as opposed to a condition rarity. In contrast to a T206 Wagner (or unique works of art), in the case of the '53 Mantle one is investing in the perfect grade. As has been discussed ad nauseum, one person's 10 is another person's 9. On top of this one is also investing in the long-term credibility of PSA, which IMO entails its own risk. I think at $2.5M it is a very risky investment.

Last edited by benjulmag; 09-10-2020 at 04:06 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 09-10-2020, 03:55 PM
sbfinley's Avatar
sbfinley sbfinley is offline
Steven Finley
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Nashville, Tn
Posts: 1,275
Default

I'll look into it. I've invested in art through Masterworks for a couple years and the return has seemed to have been okay, but I don't really follow the art market and I mainly did it on a whim. Fee wise, investments like this are usually on the same par with Hedge Funds which are nonetheless popular.

The dollar is so inflated right now, though, I have paused investing more capital in anything except gold, silver, and bitcoin right now. I've even paused my weekly purchase of FAANG stocks which I've done for years now. I think it's the right idea at the wrong time. Smart money should be looking at undervalued plays right now and the sports card market doesn't really fit that outline. If we do, however, have a K shaped recovery which some are calling for now, top end collectibles will have more room to rocket.
__________________
Always looking for rare Tommy Bridges items.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 09-10-2020, 03:58 PM
Sean1125 Sean1125 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 3,585
Default

Interesting how many people speak from a place of no knowledge.

No trading fees.
No cash out fees.
Daily trading market for liquidity.

Very small upfront fee only the original seller pays.

This makes sense

$617k/$1000k within 24 hours disagrees with the opinions of many cynical individuals here, although I always see some people exude negativity.

I'm in.
__________________
Collectibles Investment Group

Buying:
  • Sports and Non-Sports cards, autographs, and memorabilia
  • Comic Books
  • Paper Money
  • Gold and Silver Coins and Jewelry
  • Vintage Toys and Video Games

Last edited by Sean1125; 09-10-2020 at 04:00 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 09-10-2020, 04:01 PM
icurnmedic icurnmedic is offline
Thomas
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Lenoir, NC
Posts: 150
Default

Per Wikipedia( I know, I know)" In 1991, Copeland sold the card to ice hockey figures Wayne Gretzky and Bruce McNall for $451,000. " Not sure what the difference is except of course more "shares" and "investors". My concern would be , who is housing and handling the card and can I trust them.

For the record, I probably wouldn't but it is tempting.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 09-10-2020, 04:05 PM
sbfinley's Avatar
sbfinley sbfinley is offline
Steven Finley
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Nashville, Tn
Posts: 1,275
Default

Sean, what’s the commission on the final sale?
__________________
Always looking for rare Tommy Bridges items.

Last edited by sbfinley; 09-10-2020 at 04:06 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 09-10-2020, 04:11 PM
hcv123 hcv123 is offline
Howard Chasser
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NY
Posts: 2,088
Default Hmm.

Overall interesting concept. As others have raised - the "ipo" price is very relevant - is the 53 Mantle a 2.5M card? Not in my book. Would definitely need a high degree of transparency.

Per OP - "There is also the element of stocks and bonds where they are really just pieces of paper"

By that logic so is every business contract, mortgage, eviction notice, lease, etc. With Stocks those "pieces of paper" are shares of ownership in an ongoing underlying business. Bonds - a legal obligation of an underlying company to return the investment with interest.

Not poo pooing, just approaching realistically - it has possibilities. Not of particular interest to me, but if it were, would need to do much more due dilligence.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 09-10-2020, 04:14 PM
Sean1125 Sean1125 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 3,585
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sbfinley View Post
Sean, whatís the commission on the final sale?
I inquired about submitting some of my items and they range from 5%-7% on the actual sold portion. minimum values they take are about 30k+ I'd think that owner negotiated a better rate.
__________________
Collectibles Investment Group

Buying:
  • Sports and Non-Sports cards, autographs, and memorabilia
  • Comic Books
  • Paper Money
  • Gold and Silver Coins and Jewelry
  • Vintage Toys and Video Games
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 09-10-2020, 04:16 PM
Dpeck100's Avatar
Dpeck100 Dpeck100 is offline
David Peck
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 1,050
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by benjulmag View Post
IMO there is a significant difference between investing in a rarity as opposed to a condition rarity. In contrast to a T206 Wagner (or unique works of art), in the case of the '53 Mantle one is investing in the perfect grade. As has been discussed ad nauseum, one person's 10 is another person's 9. On top of this one is also investing in the long-term credibility of PSA, which IMO entails its own risk. I think at $2.5M it is a very risky investment.

It might be risky. Time will tell.

That said the perfect grade goes for huge money. A PSA 9 Gretzky OPC is say 35k. A PSA 10 is at least 700k. You and I may not agree on which we like more but the market always agrees the 10 is better.

In terms of PSA. There were people trying to short the stock at $18. Just looked at it and it closed over $46. The line is not just around the building but around the block and down the street.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 09-10-2020, 04:19 PM
Dpeck100's Avatar
Dpeck100 Dpeck100 is offline
David Peck
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 1,050
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hcv123 View Post
Overall interesting concept. As others have raised - the "ipo" price is very relevant - is the 53 Mantle a 2.5M card? Not in my book. Would definitely need a high degree of transparency.

Per OP - "There is also the element of stocks and bonds where they are really just pieces of paper"

By that logic so is every business contract, mortgage, eviction notice, lease, etc. With Stocks those "pieces of paper" are shares of ownership in an ongoing underlying business. Bonds - a legal obligation of an underlying company to return the investment with interest.

Not poo pooing, just approaching realistically - it has possibilities. Not of particular interest to me, but if it were, would need to do much more due dilligence.

Common stock is just paper. Companies create more of it each day and sell it and dilute investors at all times.

My point was it is just a line item on a statement. You can't touch it or feel it and can only see it trade on an exchange or see it in your account.

I have a huge collection so I have plenty I can touch and feel. What others are missing is cards that are being sold on EBAY right now are being shipped straight to the PWCC vault. I did one a week or so ago. Investors whether one likes it or not are coming in droves and this is just an extension of that.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 09-10-2020, 04:44 PM
sbfinley's Avatar
sbfinley sbfinley is offline
Steven Finley
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Nashville, Tn
Posts: 1,275
Default

I was interested until I read the legal. Sean stated he knew the provenance, which I don't doubt as he's always been a straight shooter, but there are two words in that document that raise the risk. It's a cool concept and the app is smooth to use, but I'll wait for other offerings.
__________________
Always looking for rare Tommy Bridges items.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 09-10-2020, 04:52 PM
JeremyW's Avatar
JeremyW JeremyW is offline
Jeremy W.
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Midwest
Posts: 754
Default

"Overall interesting concept. As others have raised - the "ipo" price is very relevant - is the 53 Mantle a 2.5M card?"

Maybe? The Trout card blew my mind.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 09-10-2020, 04:57 PM
Rhotchkiss's Avatar
Rhotchkiss Rhotchkiss is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 2,199
Default

Anyone know who is behind the company and/or where they are getting their cards from? I think that info is very relevant in determining the viability of the company and the valuations of the underlying cards.

Here is my concern- I have some very expensive cards, including a t206 wagner. I could start a company and start with my wagner, selling 25000 shares at $100/share and turn my $1mm wagner into a $2.5mm card. Better yet, I could sell off only 12500 shares, keep 50%, and be totally cashed out with no risk to me. The point is, there is tremendous potential for abuse and I would be very interested to know who is behind the company, whether they own the cards they selling shares of, how they are valuing these cards, etc.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 09-10-2020, 05:00 PM
Exhibitman's Avatar
Exhibitman Exhibitman is offline
Ad@m W@r$h@w
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Beautiful Downtown Burbank
Posts: 8,228
Default

Where is the prospectus? The investor qualification materials? What exchange is trading these shares? Anything that would make this other than what appears on its face to be an illegal offering of unregistered securities?
__________________
Please visit my web site: www.americasgreatboxingcards.com
Judge a man by how he treats someone who can do nothing for him--Nick Charles
God is not on our side because He hates idiots--The Good
I've had a lovely time, but this wasn't it--Groucho

Last edited by Exhibitman; 09-10-2020 at 05:02 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 09-10-2020, 05:11 PM
japhi japhi is offline
Ma.tt Lan.dry
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 114
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dpeck100 View Post
When I started the thread I knew the lion share of this group would poo poo it and I also thought it would be a good idea just to let people know what is about to hit the memorabilia market.

Here you have a PSA 1 Wagner that just sold for $1,146,000 through Mile High.

https://www.milehighcardco.com/1909_...-LOT72191.aspx

Wagner prior sales

Two PSA PR-FR1 Honus Wagners sold for $109,638 in 2004 and $132,000 in 2005

A PSA PR-FR 1 Honus Wagner sold for $400,000 in 2009

A PSA Poor 1 Honus Wagner sold for $402,900 in 2013

A PSA Poor 1 Wagner sold for $609,294 in 2017

A PSA Poor 1 Wagner sold for $1,169,875 in 2020


Every single one of you would have said the same thing at each of these times.

Perhaps this card doesn't turn into a home run but there will be some that will for sure. The creation of mutual funds and pushing them to the masses helped stock prices move from single digit price earnings multiples to some north of a 1000.

I am not suggesting this is as novel of a concept of Jeff Bazos coming on CNBC in 1999 and basically forecasting the future of commerce and having multitudes of people laugh at him only to go on to the be the richest person on the planet but do not full yourselves into thinking this won't have a dynamic impact on the collectables market. Many will choose to participate and many will choose not to but this is going to increase demand. It is that simple.
Sure the wags has performed well. The SP 500 was under 700 bucks in 2009. Sits around 3500 today. And yes I get that is a cherry picked example but so is the Wagner.

And the problem with this scheme as an investment is you arenít coming in at market price - there is likely a significant premium attached to the 2.5mm - and the feeís are most likely outrageous. When the card sells, fees will again be outrageous.

So as a roll the dice, have fun, I think itís cool. 10k is a nice vacation in Hawaii so Iím not going to knock anyone that likes to play with expendable cash.

But as a traditional investment these things are a joke for the reasons above.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 09-10-2020, 05:22 PM
Dpeck100's Avatar
Dpeck100 Dpeck100 is offline
David Peck
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 1,050
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss View Post
Anyone know who is behind the company and/or where they are getting their cards from? I think that info is very relevant in determining the viability of the company and the valuations of the underlying cards.

Here is my concern- I have some very expensive cards, including a t206 wagner. I could start a company and start with my wagner, selling 25000 shares at $100/share and turn my $1mm wagner into a $2.5mm card. Better yet, I could sell off only 12500 shares, keep 50%, and be totally cashed out with no risk to me. The point is, there is tremendous potential for abuse and I would be very interested to know who is behind the company, whether they own the cards they selling shares of, how they are valuing these cards, etc.

I was alerted to this by Evan recently and found it to be very intriguing and said hell yeah I will buy some shares and give this a shot.


https://collectable.com/cardboard-perfection/

Here is the link to the information on the card and below is the link to the management team. It will come as no surprise the CEO is an ex hedge fund manager.

https://collectable.com/about-us/

Just like an IPO the underwriters and the seller try and come up with a price and see if there is interest. If over 62% of it is sold out in less than 12 hours there is obviously interest at the 2.5 million price tag.

There is nothing stopping you from trying the same. You just have to be willing to turn your card over and it is no longer in your possession. For many that is something they have no interest in.

That said it is a perfect scenario where you can "take profits" and still have a shot at the upside.

In this case Evan is maintaining a huge equity stake in this card. Years ago when he bought this he told me how much he had in it. It was obviously not cheap and there is some margin in the sale price for him.

Quite frankly if you put your Wagner up in one of these scenarios I would love to buy in. Find me a period of five years where that card hasn't gone up and over time it has crushed the stock market. Has the easy money been made? Sure but with the money printing that is taking place and the vast wealth disparity globally the very well off just keep getting even more well off. Obviously this is a bone of contention for many but the Wagner card doesn't care.

On a long term basis I personally see no scenario where a Wagner goes down. It is priced in dollars and so if the dollar gets weaker and inflation hits like many believe will occur it goes up. If the economy bounces back and we continue the expansion it goes up. It is a status symbol and while you and others may have purchased it for the love of collecting there are plenty of others who will buy it so they can say they have a Wagner and they think it is a good investment.

Like someone mentioned the Trout card. From $400,000 to nearly 4 million a few years later. Some college kid could have set aside 2k and turned it into a much greater sum investing in something he likes and thinks is cool. It is coming.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 09-10-2020, 05:31 PM
Dpeck100's Avatar
Dpeck100 Dpeck100 is offline
David Peck
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 1,050
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by japhi View Post
Sure the wags has performed well. The SP 500 was under 700 bucks in 2009. Sits around 3500 today. And yes I get that is a cherry picked example but so is the Wagner.

And the problem with this scheme as an investment is you arenít coming in at market price - there is likely a significant premium attached to the 2.5mm - and the feeís are most likely outrageous. When the card sells, fees will again be outrageous.

So as a roll the dice, have fun, I think itís cool. 10k is a nice vacation in Hawaii so Iím not going to knock anyone that likes to play with expendable cash.

But as a traditional investment these things are a joke for the reasons above.

It is hard for me to take your post seriously when you cherry pick the March low. We don't know when that card sold during 2009 and it came back to end the year over 400 points higher.

I will cherry pick now. In 2004 the SP was was higher than where it ended in 2009. The Wagner went from $109,638 to $1,169,875.

Completely destroying the SP. Bare in mind most people with money don't have all of their money in the SP and what has driven a massive amount of the recent move is 6 stocks. Investor returns have not tracked the SP even remotely.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 09-10-2020, 05:45 PM
Snapolit1's Avatar
Snapolit1 Snapolit1 is offline
Ste.ve Na.polit.ano
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 3,544
Default

Would love to know if some of the folks who think this is a swell idea and just happen to have talking points, detailed statistics, and the like readily at hand are actually investors and/or funders.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 09-10-2020, 05:47 PM
iwantitiwinit's Avatar
iwantitiwinit iwantitiwinit is offline
rob.ert int.rieri
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: NC
Posts: 1,596
Default

Hard pass. A few early entrants will most likely make $ and those in later will be left holding worthless paper when ipo's with initial high arbitrary valuations are proven to be just that too high. Remember equity IPO prices are established by market forces, demand at various specific prices are matched to the size of the offering and a balance is eventually established just prior to the shares opening for trade. Here it seems as if an overall valuation is established then shares are sold without regard for prior demand, much different than a specialist/underwriting system we see for IPO's.

Reminds me to an extent of a few years back when Adrian Foster sold interest in his future NFL earnings. I think he monetized that at something like 23.5 million and ended up playing only a few games.

Lastly, the issuance of 1099's by an entity with little expertise/experience in the detailed record keeping necessary to produce accurate 1099's seems like a recipe for disaster.

Anyway just my opinion and good luck to those participating.

Last edited by iwantitiwinit; 09-10-2020 at 06:22 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 09-10-2020, 05:50 PM
JeremyW's Avatar
JeremyW JeremyW is offline
Jeremy W.
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Midwest
Posts: 754
Default

I can assure you that I don't. The idea that baseball cards are an investment for some, sounds like a good thing for the hobby to me.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 09-10-2020, 05:52 PM
Orioles1954 Orioles1954 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,914
Default

Iíll be interested to see what happens. Especially if there are offerings of ďjunk cards.Ē
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 09-10-2020, 06:04 PM
japhi japhi is offline
Ma.tt Lan.dry
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 114
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dpeck100 View Post
It is hard for me to take your post seriously when you cherry pick the March low. We don't know when that card sold during 2009 and it came back to end the year over 400 points higher.

I will cherry pick now. In 2004 the SP was was higher than where it ended in 2009. The Wagner went from $109,638 to $1,169,875.

Completely destroying the SP. Bare in mind most people with money don't have all of their money in the SP and what has driven a massive amount of the recent move is 6 stocks. Investor returns have not tracked the SP even remotely.
Yes I understand all that, even mentioned it was a cherry picked sample.

Tesla was what, 80 bucks a few years ago? 6x in 24 months what can we take from that? Outproduced almost every widely traded sports card. Trades at 1000x earnings. What does that tell us? We are in a crazy asset bubble, context is I’m down on anything that isn’t a value play. I’ll take JPM long term over a 53 Mantle or TSLA.

I’m low risk, long term, etf / bluechip / dividend investor. So I am definitely not the target market here. But I do love the hustle and as a spec play/ gambling I get the appeal.

Question for you since you are big on this as an investment. What do you have the market value of that card being today? Asking sincerely , I have no idea what that card would sell for.

Either way interesting discussion and I don’t root for these things to fail, I hope your 10k becomes 100k, this isn’t a sum zero game so ideally we are both right.

Last edited by japhi; 09-10-2020 at 06:04 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 09-10-2020, 06:04 PM
Jcosta19's Avatar
Jcosta19 Jcosta19 is offline
Justin
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 201
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dpeck100 View Post
I was alerted to this by Evan recently and found it to be very intriguing and said hell yeah I will buy some shares and give this a shot.





https://collectable.com/cardboard-perfection/



Here is the link to the information on the card and below is the link to the management team. It will come as no surprise the CEO is an ex hedge fund manager.



https://collectable.com/about-us/



Just like an IPO the underwriters and the seller try and come up with a price and see if there is interest. If over 62% of it is sold out in less than 12 hours there is obviously interest at the 2.5 million price tag.



There is nothing stopping you from trying the same. You just have to be willing to turn your card over and it is no longer in your possession. For many that is something they have no interest in.



That said it is a perfect scenario where you can "take profits" and still have a shot at the upside.



In this case Evan is maintaining a huge equity stake in this card. Years ago when he bought this he told me how much he had in it. It was obviously not cheap and there is some margin in the sale price for him.



Quite frankly if you put your Wagner up in one of these scenarios I would love to buy in. Find me a period of five years where that card hasn't gone up and over time it has crushed the stock market. Has the easy money been made? Sure but with the money printing that is taking place and the vast wealth disparity globally the very well off just keep getting even more well off. Obviously this is a bone of contention for many but the Wagner card doesn't care.



On a long term basis I personally see no scenario where a Wagner goes down. It is priced in dollars and so if the dollar gets weaker and inflation hits like many believe will occur it goes up. If the economy bounces back and we continue the expansion it goes up. It is a status symbol and while you and others may have purchased it for the love of collecting there are plenty of others who will buy it so they can say they have a Wagner and they think it is a good investment.



Like someone mentioned the Trout card. From $400,000 to nearly 4 million a few years later. Some college kid could have set aside 2k and turned it into a much greater sum investing in something he likes and thinks is cool. It is coming.
Does the website state that 62% of shares have sold?

If so, does that include the shares the cards owner is keeping?

The website is still flagged as malicious for me, so can't read the details.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 09-10-2020, 06:10 PM
Dpeck100's Avatar
Dpeck100 Dpeck100 is offline
David Peck
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 1,050
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapolit1 View Post
Would love to know if some of the folks who think this is a swell idea and just happen to have talking points, detailed statistics, and the like readily at hand are actually investors and/or funders.
As I stated above no. I knew nothing about this until a few days ago and downloaded the app. I got an alert this morning that it went live and I logged in and did my purchase.

To answer another question below when I bought the shares it was at 41% sold out. It shows you how much is left. The 41% was of the 1 million offered.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 09-10-2020, 06:13 PM
swarmee's Avatar
swarmee swarmee is offline
J0hn Raff3rty
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Niceville FL
Posts: 5,098
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dpeck100 View Post
I was alerted to this by Evan recently and found it to be very intriguing and said hell yeah I will buy some shares and give this a shot.
Ah, impeccable provenance coming from a known trimmer of super high value cards...
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...ghlight=mathis

Wonderful. Have a good time with that.
__________________
--
PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head
PSA: Regularly Get Cheated
BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern
SGC: Closed auto authentication business
JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC
Oh, what a difference a year makes.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 09-10-2020, 06:18 PM
Rhotchkiss's Avatar
Rhotchkiss Rhotchkiss is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 2,199
Default

DPek, thanks for the links. Interesting that itís Mathisí card and that he retains some ownership.

There is an 8-member team already assembled with some big titles and apparently successful backgrounds. That is a lot of overhead to fund from operations.

I think the idea is interesting, but itís not for me.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 09-10-2020, 06:31 PM
Dpeck100's Avatar
Dpeck100 Dpeck100 is offline
David Peck
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 1,050
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by japhi View Post
Yes I understand all that, even mentioned it was a cherry picked sample.

Tesla was what, 80 bucks a few years ago? 6x in 24 months what can we take from that? Outproduced almost every widely traded sports card. Trades at 1000x earnings. What does that tell us? We are in a crazy asset bubble, context is Iím down on anything that isnít a value play. Iíll take JPM long term over a 53 Mantle or TSLA.

Iím low risk, long term, etf / bluechip / dividend investor. So I am definitely not the target market here. But I do love the hustle and as a spec play/ gambling I get the appeal.

Question for you since you are big on this as an investment. What do you have the market value of that card being today? Asking sincerely , I have no idea what that card would sell for.

Either way interesting discussion and I donít root for these things to fail, I hope your 10k becomes 100k, this isnít a sum zero game so ideally we are both right.

I am a diversified person. I own my car, I own my condo, I have a cash account, I have my retirement accounts which are my largest asset, and I have my card collection that has rocketed to levels honestly I can't believe. In the baseball card world a guy like me is a small fish. In my genre which is primary wrestling I have the most valuable collection of anyone. There really isn't probably another space where a guy my age and with my net worth is at the top. I have had tremendous luck with cards and perhaps that will change and current values are fantasy but I am sticking with my long term vision. I own some of my old baseball cards but nothing of value and for ten years I have been beating the drum that the best cards had no where to go but up. We are now in a phase where I have never felt more strongly about that and time will tell how it plays out. For me I would love to own some cool cards from the major sports but either they are one too much capital commitment or I just have no connection to them and just would want them for investment purposes. This card is clearly one of the best baseball cards that exists. Some will say well it is only that because it is a 10. Well guess what since 1999 those same people have been saying the same thing and 31 years later the disparity just continue to get wider. That is their personal preference but the market which is a collective of all interested parties completely disagrees and they do so with their money. Buying this card at 2.5 million is not going to be a TSLA return. I am the last guy to ask about that stock because it is mind boggling to me. That said it has continued to shock long term market participants in mass but on the other side of the trade is Ron Baron who routinely comes on CNBC and says he thinks it is going to the moon. So far he has been right and most have been wrong. I have gambled away 10k before on an options trade and so there is no scenario where this goes to zero. I honestly just wanted to give it a shot and I actually think you will see a scenario where this sells out and then there won't be much turn over and the small amount of trading will push the shares to a premium. In the stock market this happens all of the time with low float stocks and with one shareholder controlling 60% of the pie and not in the float this is a likely outcome. As I stated I would love for a Jordan to come up where I could take a larger stake and perhaps a 52 Mantle and so forth. I think the fair market value for this card is debatable and I am not really in a good position to even know. I believe cards like this are like art and once they become such a coveted item they can go to levels no one can imagine. It may be a scenario like an IPO in 1999 where they sell at a huge valuation and there is little upside and so maybe this deal isn't a great one but there will be plenty more to come and I will certainly look to put a few more bucks to work. Under no circumstances do I see this as a 10X play. But I do think the goal from so many investors to find alternative assets is huge. In the example where it was 2004 to 2009, the Wagner was up from just over 100k to 400k and the market actually fell nearly 40% and simply rebounded during that timeframe. There will be rolling periods where certain assets classes outperform or underperform but monster baseball cards from what I can see have held up great and attracted great interest from wealthy people and that same holds true for high end art, comics, cars, stamps and just about anything you can think of. This is an apex item and it will always be.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 09-10-2020, 06:38 PM
Dpeck100's Avatar
Dpeck100 Dpeck100 is offline
David Peck
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 1,050
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by iwantitiwinit View Post
Hard pass. A few early entrants will most likely make $ and those in later will be left holding worthless paper when ipo's with initial high arbitrary valuations are proven to be just that too high. Remember equity IPO prices are established by market forces, demand at various specific prices are matched to the size of the offering and a balance is eventually established just prior to the shares opening for trade. Here it seems as if an overall valuation is established then shares are sold without regard for prior demand, much different than a specialist/underwriting system we see for IPO's.

Reminds me to an extent of a few years back when Adrian Foster sold interest in his future NFL earnings. I think he monetized that at something like 23.5 million and ended up playing only a few games.

Lastly, the issuance of 1099's by an entity with little expertise/experience in the detailed record keeping necessary to produce accurate 1099's seems like a recipe for disaster.

Anyway just my opinion and good luck to those participating.

They are teamed up with a broker dealer. There won't be any issue with 1099's.

This is a good thing in my view and I am still waiting to hear back from my compliance department to see if I can actually move forward. I don't believe it will be an issue but for me this should give people added comfort that they are registered with the SEC and have a broker dealer handling the trading and tax forms.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 09-10-2020, 07:03 PM
doug.goodman doug.goodman is online now
Doug Goodman
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Waiting out the Zombie Apocalypse instead on being on tour somewhere
Posts: 2,764
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss View Post
Anyone know who is behind the company and/or where they are getting their cards from? I think that info is very relevant in determining the viability of the company and the valuations of the underlying cards.

Here is my concern- I have some very expensive cards, including a t206 wagner. I could start a company and start with my wagner, selling 25000 shares at $100/share and turn my $1mm wagner into a $2.5mm card. Better yet, I could sell off only 12500 shares, keep 50%, and be totally cashed out with no risk to me. The point is, there is tremendous potential for abuse and I would be very interested to know who is behind the company, whether they own the cards they selling shares of, how they are valuing these cards, etc.
Nailed it
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 09-10-2020, 07:15 PM
ergoism's Avatar
ergoism ergoism is offline
Evan M.
member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 46
Default

See you guys in about 3 months.
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:45 PM.


ebay GSB