Survey: Most overated pitcher (pre-1930)

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Posted By: Julie

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Posted By: tim Mayer

Well I always thought that just " winning " is overated when comparing stats...I never thought CY Young was an alltime great except for his wins,,,,how weird it that?

Other overated guys to me over the years..

Don Larsen- one great game
Koufax- as good as anyone for a stretch, didn't pitch long enough for me to get all the accolades he gets.
Roger Clemens- never a true Yankee to me, and not nearly as clutch as I thought he should be,
Pedro Martinez- Not a big game pitcher, not a nice guy, I am biased I admit.

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Posted By: jay behrens

I can't claim to ahve seen Koufax pitch, but I do know, taht as I have mentioned before, to be an all-time great, you have to do it for your whole career ala Matty, Johnson, Grove, Alexander, etc. Koufax didn't do this. He is one of, if not the greatest peak value pitchers in history, but not thing more.

I don't have a problem with putting supernovas like Koufax in. Thing that bothers me is that the same people that think Koufax belongs even though his career was cut short are almost always the same people taht don't think Puckett and others of similar plight belong. I also think personally, I put Mantle in the same catagory as Koufax in that I never saw either play but have to hear the constant fawning of fans that treat them as some sort of god and greater than they really were. Not that I'm saying there aren't great, jsut overblown.

Jay

I saw weird stuff in that place last night. Wierd, strange, sick, twisted, eerie, godless, evil stuff. And I want in.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Hold on. Mantle never was in Kofax's league performancewise. There are no similarities between these players that occur to me. I saw them both play. Mantle was the continuance of the Yankee superstar downgrade from Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle, then a host of wannabees. Mantle routinely hit HRs when it didn't matter, then struck out in the clutch. I never saw a player so heavily booed by the fans as this sub .300 hitter.

Kofax on the other hand required a lot of coaching when he came up, and apparently the decision was made that the best coaching was available on the parent team, rather than in the minors. He was very wild in the beginning, and it took him a while to gain control. But when he got it, it was like a symphony. Effortless crackling curveball, blazing smoke, and a host of surprises. He made all the money he needed and then bailed. Some hero.

Give me the old players before the influence of tv and other advertising money. Players with heart and players with soul. Williams was like Kofax (when Kofax was good). Not Mantle.


Berra was the man Yankee fans wanted up there when it was ballgame time.


Gil

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Posted By: Chris

Gil- according to baseballlibrary.com, Koufax was in the big leagues because the rule of the day said Bonus contract players were required to stay on the Major League roster. I'm not sure exactly how the rule read but that as well as better coaching in the bigs were the reason he was not in the minors. Jay, the reason so many people swoon over Koufax is because he really was that damn good. Fans. sports writers, teammates and opponents all say so. They can't all be wrong. I think people who say he was overrated don't understand what his reputation was built on. It wasn't on a long career. It was built on dominating hitters in the 60's and being a big game pitcher who was ultra competitive and considered the best of his era. Koufax retired when he was 31 years old and the comparison to Gale Sayers has already been made. Just because Gale only played 7 or 8 years doesn't mean he wasn't one of the All time Greats. I for one think Kirby deserves the Hall. As for Don Larsen being overrated, he isn't. Larsen is remembered for one thing and one thing only. Nobody pretends he was one of the great pitchers. He just happened to have the right stuff that one day and accomplished something someone had never done before and probably never will again. It was still an incredible accomplishment and that is what he will always be remembered for. It's not like he will ever be in the Hall or considered. You don't have to be a superstar to have a great moment in sports. Every dog has his day.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

A favorite of mine is Pat Seerey. This player always strode to the plate as if he was the Bambino. And he took vicious cuts at the ball with very limited success. About a quarter of the time he would walk back to the dugout after three uneventful swipes. Well, he sure didn't hit for average either. But he did have his day. Four homers in a single game!

Now his Leaf card sits right there alongside Adcock, Hodges, Mays, Schmidt and others (soon hopefully to include Gehrig or Lowe - when I will get the Delehanty I can't imagine).

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Posted By: calvindog

Koufax was hardly a supernova. Steve Blass was a supernova. Mark Fidrych was. Joe Charbeneou was. Koufax was probably the most dominant pitcher over a five year period as one has ever been. And he pitched in pain and he pitched on two days rest in the biggest game of his life--and didn't require middle relief to bail him out. And he never got arrested and he never took the juice. And he turned down big money to retire on his own terms. Rarely has the combination of greatness--both in the baseball sense and as a person--existed in one baseball player as it did in Koufax.

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Posted By: jay behrens

you can't compare a football career to a baseball career. Especially RBs. The average career is less than 5 years and maybe even less than 4. It's the rare football career that lasts more than 10 years. The only similarities between Koufax and Sayers is that they were dominant players at the time injuries ended their careers early. Sayers was dominant in college and pros. Koufax spent half his career figuring out how to be a great pitcher.

We will all jsut have to agree to disagree on Koufax since I doubt anyone is going to change anyone's mind.

Jay

I saw weird stuff in that place last night. Weird, strange, sick, twisted, eerie, godless, evil stuff. And I want in.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

But of course, Sayers' career, while equally short as Sandy's, doesn't compare to his. Sayers had 2 1000 yard rushing years. Never had a "triple crown" that Sandy had a number of times. Never dominated fully the way Koufax did.

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Posted By: Chris

You make a very valid point. baseball careers usually last a lot longer than football. Out of curiosity Jay, do you consider Kirby's accomplishments overrated? Also what do you think Kirby's reputation was mostly built on? To me, he and Koufax are similiar in many ways. Almost exact same number years, Kirby was one of the best hitters of his era, both were winners and great competitors, both became quality players at about the same age and sadly, both careers cut short.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Both were similar. Saying that Koufax was a more dominant player than Puckett is a yes and no thing. It's easier for a pitcher to look dominant because they have a very direct effect on the outcome of the game as long as they are pitching. Hitters have less of an impact because they can only come to the plate every few innings. Thre has been only one true dominant hitter in the past 70+ years and that is Bonds. The game is played completely differently when comes to the plate.

Puckett had some outstanding stats, but he brought intangibles to his team. When he made his "climb on my back" statement, you knew at that point he was either going to cement his place as a great player, or go down as just another trash talker. If the Twins don't win the 91 Series, doubt you would see Puckett in the HOF.

If youa re going to put in players that dominate the league fora 5 year streach, then put in everyone that did it, no matter what point in their in career it happened. Why should a player that dominates at the end of his career get in over someone who dominated the league at the begining or middle of his career?

Jay

I saw weird stuff in that place last night. Weird, strange, sick, twisted, eerie, godless, evil stuff. And I want in.

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Posted By: Patrick

Were we supposed to do the most overated before 1930??? Anyways that is a very tough question, especially since most of us didn't see guys pitch before then. I have opinions on Ryan, Koufax, and others. Obviously as you can tell by my user name I am a big Ryan fan. I can say about Ryan that he definitely wouldn't qualify as the greatest pitcher ever(but hes pretty good). If you ask who is the most "dominant" of all-time he migth be in the top 5. Toughest to hit, and he did this for a VERY,long time. 27 years to be exact. But you can't overlook the fact that in 25 of those 27 seasons his ERA was under 4. So to me he might not have won the Cy Young(eventhough he deserved it 3 or 4 years), his consistency was greatness. I have read all of Ryan's books, and as far as pitch count goes, when he was with the Angels he said he once through well over 200 pitches in one game, and Im sure he through well over 150 in most games. Pitch count is a joke!! The bottom line is all you need to do is ask players that played with him, and hit against him, and ask them how good Ryan was. Ask Aaron, Brett, Yount, Carew, Rose, etc. See how good they say Ryan is. He wasn't the greatest off all-time, but man he wa sure exciting and fun to watch pitch for 27 years! I also got to see him pitch in person 8 times while he pitched withe the Rangers. Wow what a thrill!!!

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Posted By: Chris

I would say in some regards Kirby was as dominating as Koufax. He sure could hit, and played a pretty good OF for a round guy.

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Posted By: Paul M

Let's pile on Eppa Jeptha Rixey for awhile !!! Someone needs to take the Craftsman power screwdriver to his HOF plaque

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Id say Williams.

My choice certainly would not be a player who is unlikely to finish up with a .300 BA.