Matty Buyback

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Posted By: joe brennan

Someone posted something about these buybacks a while ago. I chimed in saying the prices were sometimes 2 or 3 times higher. Here ya go. Why pay this price for this condition to say you have collected a modern set with old cards in it??????

http://cgi.ebay.com/Topps-T206-BuyBack-MATHEWSON-N-Y-Nat-Sweet-Caporal_W0QQitemZ5231921557QQcategoryZ86841QQssPag eNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

"I had the right to remain silent. I just didn't have the ability" Ron White

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Posted By: tbob

That price is just dumb.

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Posted By: Mark Holt

Topps didn't break their budget on that one did they?

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Posted By: shannon

Wow! It just goes to show you how stupid some people are with there money. This guy just buys those buyback cards, I have a couple Im thinking of selling just because this guy will bid anything to win these cards

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I'm missing something here. Isn't this card just a crappy Matty in some special Topps-designed holder? Like a PSA 1 Matty just enclosed in a holder that's not PSA, SGC or GAI? What's the point? Is there any added value to the fact that it's in a Topps holder instead?

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Posted By: Joan

I have had many transactions with Bertfo -and also his son-and they are both
great to deal with; they pay immediately and are very friendly & post feedback as well-which is saying a lot these days.
.

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Posted By: dennis

jeff ...yes...yes...no point....lots of value to at least 1 guy..proves that,if you slab it someone will buy the slab!

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Wow, that is really twisted. What if another company slabbed the Topps/Matty buyback in a different holder, thus reducing the specific graded population to an even lower number? Would the card go up in value exponentially?

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Posted By: dennis

what is kind of sad about the topps t206 buybacks on ebay is that all the sellers start the auction (for commons)at $49.99 knowing they will get at least 1 bid.

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Posted By: Joan

The point is these buybacks were part of a themed set by Topps-a major manufacturer and one of the oldest. MANY people collect the Topps 206 buybacks,
in all three series and colors (very comely), and they have binders full of them; a Hall of Fame player is rare in this particular set. It may be gimmicky and well beneath "people in the know" but it has worked. Shout out to Bertfo.

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Posted By: zach

that 400 bucks is waaaay too much to pay for a T206 Mathewson that is in poor condition and would grade a psa 1. This goes to show that the person buying the card is just buying it because of the little holder it is in and that I think is just dumb. For 400 dollars you could get a much better looking and more presentable card.

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Posted By: dennis

sad that the sellers of these start bidding at $49.99...no sellers start common t206 psa/sgc/gai 3 or 4 commons out this high. but they start a topps slab common out at $49.99 knowing that this buyer will pay that high price...yes sad that sellers are taking advantage. if the matty (in a topps slab)were so in demand why not start at $99.00 or 99 cents.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Hey, don't blame the sellers. Blame Topps and the buyers. They're taking a great vintage card (albeit in horrendous conditon) and turning it into a shiny refractor chrome one of one type card by slipping it into a two cent "special" holder. The only way this makes any sense, simply, is for investment purposes (based on the greater fool theory). How could any vintage card purist want this POS?

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Posted By: DJ

I was about to say the same thing as above. The seller isn't at fault here. You can't shoot the messenger. The person to blame is the buyer for being so uneducated and buying into the hype.

Things like this take me back to 1991 when people were purchasing Topps Wax Boxes because of randomly inserted cards. I remember a guy buying ten boxes off me for $260 in hopes of getting an original "vintage trading card". He called me shortly after and told me that he was PISSED because he got two original vintage trading cards. Two commons, one from 1972 and one from 1979.

DJ

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Posted By: identify7

I applaud this buyback program by Topps. It brings vintage cards to modern card collectors. A percentage of them will become fascinated by the vintage material. And when they investigate the pre-war marketplace, they will find out that it is cheaper than portrayed in the buyback program.

This has got to be a positive thing. It is certain to strengthen our marketplace. Wait - that means even higher prices!

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Posted By: Joan

I wish I could get it like you smart guys. Someone always has to be smarter than, sharper than, more savvy than, blah, blah, blah........... The fact is this Topps set has held
it's value for three years-it was issued 2002-and some of the cards have risen in price. The cards that have game-used relics of Hall of Famers like Ty Cobb and Tris Speaker still sell high-a Sam Crawford relic sold for $52.00 yesterday. This ratty Matty will probably hold a high value for years to come-completely separate from it's value as an independent t206. It is tied in with Autographed cards of rookies like Joe Mauer and Gavin Floyd. I love it when you guys are all elitist and superior about Baseball Card Collecting-get it----BASEBALL CARDS.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Hey guys...

The seller is not at fault, sell Matty for as much as you can get for him. The reality is that there are few Matty's in such a holder, but lots in that shape that aren't. Topps isn't at fault either, they have taken a cornerstone set of baseball cards, used it as a theme for a modern set, and created some curiosity and interest in T206s among new collectors. Topps spent more than 2 cents putting him under plastic, but not much more. What is really happening is that whoever buys this card would be more likely to collect more T206s one day... and maybe some T207s after that. E90-1s would be nice after that, and some real Cracker Jack cards. He might progress to E107s... were there baseball cards in the 19th century??? He might even advance to Old Judges. Might join this board one day...


So is it nuts to buy that Matty??? Yes, unless you want a type "buy back" or you're working on a near set of T206 "buy backs" (which may well be lunacy in and of itself). Otherwise, it IS nuts to buy that card. But someone will.

I know a quite advanced (used without the definitions argued previously, but I mean lots of nice cards, cards for cards' sake, and accumulated long ago in a knowledgable manner with appreciation for the game) collector who advocates having "two of everything". Someone like that could sell a set of E90-1s, for example, to Topps for some future set. That collector/seller would silently praise Topps' "buy back" scheme.

Now if Topps will "buy back" a Zeenut McMullen and a T210 Jackson New Orleans, then I may well buy a few sealed boxes of some new cards...

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Posted By: joe brennan

Its held its value for 3 years? It doesnt change the fact that this card is a beater in a $.10 holder. Just because someone is willing to pay this kind of money doesnt make it right. And as far as cutting up pieces of history to put in packs, I dont think you even want to go there. This topic has been beaten to death here. I dont think you will find 1 board member that agrees with that. 3 years is not a guage for value. Its a guage for what is hot at the time. Just wait 3 years and see what the Pittsburghs quarterback $1500 rookie card will be worth when he fades into obscurity. Just an example of hot. BTW Ricky Williams was pretty hot 3 years ago. I started this thread to point out that the people paying these prices are buying the holder, with out knowledge of the card or the cards worth. They could do much better buying the holder if it said SGC 50 on it. Out

"I had the right to remain silent. I just didn't have the ability" Ron White

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Posted By: Joan

Ty Cobb and Honus Wagner are not exactly Ricky Williams-and I think 3 years is beyond a fad.

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Posted By: Joan

By the way, I am totally aware of what you are saying and know the
value of these cards (t206's) in or out of a Topps holder. You can't argue for or against taste-some people like the way things look and will buy them at any price. I was defending my man Bertfo-a good man-and Real Estate Agent, so you know who has the money to spend these days.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

You guys are dreaming if you think that people that pay $500 for a Matty PSA 1 in a two cent Topps buyback holder are buying the card because they're developing an interest in the T206 set. If they had an interest, they'd buy the actual cards that are not in the Topps holder and save 95% of the money they just spent. The obvious fact is that these buyers are scooping up these cards because they have an interest in the Buyback set, period, not the card within the holder.

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Posted By: Joan

Exactly, the cards make a very Handsome set altogether: Rookies, Autographs, t206 buybacks and all-and the set will hold it's value with the Hall of Famers and Vintage cards involved. That's the reality. The first post said that the price was dumb, but I believe it may not be. The set includes nice autographs of Roger Clemens, Barry Bonds, and Alex Rodriguez (who are headed to the hall and will rise), ALONG with the Buybacks, and Bertfo has it, all of it. As whole I think this set will rise in price. That is my theory...and it is a theory which is mine...

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

I'm of the opinion that the price for this is a bit inflated but the fact that this has a bid indicates there's a market for it at that price. As a seller you try to maximize your highest realized return.

On the flip side there's been a lot of good comments about Topps exposing collectors of non-vintage material to these cards. That's a good thing because it generates more collecing interest. I suppose you could look at that two ways:

• More competition for vintage material (not so good)
  
• Increasing the number of collectors that share the same interest (good)
  

I guess when you think about it the exposure just might scare the heck out of potential new collectors after they see the price of some of this stuff.

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Posted By: Joan

To answer the original question, the cards are part of a complete set that is now
worth a lot of money and will be worth more in future.Out

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Not so sure I agree, but that's your opinion. There's not exactly a feeding frenzy in that auction; and who knows if the set will increase as per a 1952 Topps set or the McGwire and Griffey rookie cards?

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Posted By: Bryan

Hello-
A newbie here. I've been lurking for long time, trying to soak up as much info as I can from all the experts around here...(btw, I would never spend my money on the butbacks. I know I can pick up low-grade commons for a fraction of the price.)
Let me just say I caught the vintage "bug" about 2 years ago. It was the Topps 206 set that sparked my intrest. I am not alone. I am convinced that many new collectors are a result of the "vintage" themed modern products.
With that in mind, now may be the time to get your hands on Turkey Reds. With prices already pretty high imo, new intest should soon be sparked in these beautiful cards. For those here that don't follow the modern sets at all, you should know that Topps newest tribute set will be Turkey Red. It is slated for a 8/29 release.

just my 2 cents

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Posted By: identify7

I have already stated above that I applaud the Topps buyback program. I do so for the reasons which I stated.

However, I am concerned that the fad of collecting holders containing items of historical significance, at seriously inflated prices, will cause harm once the bubble bursts and sensible heads prevail.

The arguement that fad collectibles can not withstand a three year test of time, appears unsound in light of the support which collectors gave (and some still give) beanie babys. That fad started 12 years ago.

Topps did not create the aftermarket pricing, collectors have. We will all watch this segment of the market as its progress unfolds. I do not recommend for anyone to participate in it, unless you do so with full realization of the level of risk.

Just my opinion.

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Posted By: joe brennan

The first post said that the price was dumb, but I believe it may not be.

Joanee, No where in my first post was the word dumb used. Please read it again. The question was why. I believe you answered the why by adding it is a part of a set. Yes it is part of a set, a 1909 T206 set. Because Topps makes it part of a modern set, does not make this purchase a 2002 card. If they open the vault at Topps and put boarders around the 1952 set, does it make them rarer and more valuable? I thnk not. Collecting what you like is the only justification here, not the value of a $.10 border.

"I had the right to remain silent. I just didn't have the ability" Ron White

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Posted By: Joan

I was referring to tbob's post, the first posting after your statement. All I would like to say is that I have sold plenty of cards from that set over the last 3 years and I am telling you honestly that the prices are going up. The set is personally not my taste but I guarantee you it will rise in price in the next 20 years when Clemens etc. reach the hall and if Mark Prior and Joe Mauer (who have autos in that set) have Hall of Fame careers that set will go through the roof. The t206's are along for the ride and will hold their value and a little greater I believe. I do also think that Retro cards in sets are nothing new-the Lajoie Goudey card was well after he retired and Babe Ruth's 1948 Leaf was well after his playing career-these are slightly different circumstances but still they elevated the worth of these sets.

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Posted By: cmoking

I actually like new stuff...not that much to collect them, but definitely much more than the majority of the folks here.

With that said, I think you are way off by saying that the 2002 Topps 206 set (that's the set you are talking about right?) will go up 20 years from now. No way Jose. What makes it special? How many other Clemens autos in different sets are there? Everything in that set is easily duplicated in other cards, there's nothing that will be memorable about it, including the buy back issue.

If I could short futures in that set, I would. You wanna make a 20 year bet?

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Posted By: Joan

I will absolutely make you a 20 year bet. That set now is worth $5,000-$10,000 and it will be worth more. The Bonds auto sells for $300, Pujols $225, Clemens, $125 and will go up. What do you want to bet? Joan

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Posted By: Joan

I will take betting action on this Topps set from any of you VintageGuys-I don't think a card has to be fighting off mold to be worth something. Don't forget , in this set there are rookie cards of Prior, Mauer, and Khalil Greene-autographs too, so if these fellas do what I think they will-this set will be worth .$$

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Posted By: James Feagin

I busted a case of the Topps 206 when it came out. I got 3 of the buyback cards. I think they are fun, and I collected them for awhile. However, to think the base set or auto set will appreciate is downright laughable. There are 3 series of these sets, not exactly rare. The autos have reached their absolute 100% and will probably do nothing but go down. The bubble has already burst on modern cards and most former collector's of this set have lost their shirts. Topps 206 is the ugly second cousin to the MUCH more popular Topps Heritage series (which I happen to love). By the way, I'll take the 20 year bet. Now back to vintage cards......

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Posted By: Joan

Yes, Now back to the important stuff and the important sets that are expertly thought about and considered. The Topps Heritage set Is the greatest set ever and the only modern set, you are absolutely dead on. The others are nothing.

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Posted By: James Feagin

With the 80 or so different rookies of Mauer and Greene in 2002, I know the world over is absolutely clamoring for the Topps 206 versions. I've seen card shows and shops flooded with the requests

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Posted By: Joan

I would bet you that the Clemens, Bonds,and Rodriguez autographs alone will be worth more in as little as 10 years time. So, I think you should start getting your money together. all the best, Joan

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Posted By: Anson

A lot will depend on the demand in 10 or 20 years. Nobody can take anything away from Clemens, ARod, or Bonds......well, ok Bonds. But, that's a different story. The fact of the matter is, people view cards much differently now than they did even 10 years ago. Trying to guess how things will be in 10 years is nearly impossible. Vintage cards are scarce because, back in the day, people didn't place much value on them. They dried up and, for the most part, became pretty tough to find. Today, everyone collects everything and hopes it will be worth a lot of money someday.

Created demand by purposely shortprinting may stimulate buzz now. However, with tons of shortprinted, limited, numbered out of ..., stuff out there, there's still too much for anyone to collect. As pointed out, there are a WHOLE lot of Clemens, Bonds, and ARod autos out there. Why would this set be any more special than another shortprinted auto set? I can still find WW1 and WW2 HOF autos for under $200 and there are A LOT less of them to go around.

It all boils down to the interest at the time and whether the focus is on the next greatest thing.

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Posted By: identify7

There is no need to offer a wager with other board members Joan. If you think certain cards are sure to rise in value, put them away yourself. That is the only bet you need.

Personally I don't know anything about the new sets nor the autograph market. But I do note that even players from the 50s have companies set up which are churning out autographs and memorabilia. How valuable can that stuff be?

I will take a look at the topps heritage set, on your recommendation Joan, to see what it is. But seriously, pre-war is difficult enuff for me without trying to learn the dozens of new sets issued each year.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Two things...

First, why are these called "buy backs"?? Here in the hills of Kentucky, the way American English is used, I buy something when I give someone money or a promise to pay money in exchange for an item... And for me to "buy back" something, it would have to be an item I had at some previous point in time, that I am BUYING BACK (to me). I understand what they mean, but Topps never had these cards to start with. And truth be known, it is unlikely that Piedmont or Seet Caporal or any of those brands "produced" these cards, realistically they contracted with some lithography printing company to produce the cards.


Secondly, I don't doubt Joan may well be correct about appreciation of prices, for a few years... but they will go back down, or stagnate, in about 3 dozen years, after the players are retired. The prewar cards won't do that, they'll be "constantly advancing" to use Gen. Patton's nomenclature. Think of Model Ts. The price on those peaked when the kids who had a raggedy one as a first car reached retirement age, and wanted to "buy back" their first car... That put pressure on the Model T market. As those geezers pass on (replaced by us geezers) the demand lessened, and the prices went down a bit. When the A-Rod collecting snotnoses get ready to cash in on their piles of A-Rod cards when he makes the Hall, who will buy them?? Rod Carew cards flattened out, so will this new stuff.

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Posted By: jay behrens

If you want proof that inserts have no holding power as an investment, just look at their history. When they first come out, they are very hot and prices are silly. As soon as the next set is issued, no one cares anymore.

Manufactured scarcity doesn't hold value. This goes for any field of collectibles. How many of those $500 a pack UD cards are holding anything close to their value?

Jay

My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: identify7

Well Joan, I looked at the heritage set, and I agree. It is as you described it. And I would buy it. The price I saw was about $400 for 750 cards comprising the subsets: then & now, flashback, new age, short prints and whiteback.

Although I am not sure what all of these are, I did see the following types of cards in this set (unless I am mistaken):

Reprints of cards from the 50s with genuine autographs of the players
Prints of cards which never were, such as a '56 Topps Musial
Current players on cards designed similarly to cards from the 50s
Refractors!
probably more.

At that price I would not consider this set for investment. There is entirely too much bulk for too few dollars, imo. But I do see it as fun.

Good set.

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Posted By: Joan

The original statement for this thread was that the buyer must be crazy to pay top dollar for marginal t206's in a Topps 206 holder. First, I think that buyer is a knowledgeable collector and he might not be so crazy because he has collected the entire set and if he sold the set today on ebay it would be worth around $10,000. Ty Cobb Topps 206 Relic right now on Ebay is at $202.00 Honus Wagner at $108.00 and going up. Pujols autograph sold yesterday for @ $220. etc. etc. etc. etc.

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Posted By: Joan

http://cgi.ebay.com/2002-Topps-206-Relics-Ty-Cobb-Game-Used-Bat-TR-TC_W0QQitemZ5233311679QQcategoryZ56119QQssPageName ZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

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Posted By: Josh A.

Comparing a Pujols auto to a t206 Matty (blue holder or not), seems a little difficult to reconcile. Pujols presumably is still signing autographs. However, I don't believe there are new Mattys being issued by Sweet Caporal or any other tobacco company for that matter. It's tough to see that a Pujols auto, or any other relatively young player's auto, will continue to rise, when new ones are being created daily.

Plus, the Matty is darned pretty to look at!

"I'm thinking about getting a plasma T.V., in case I need a transfusion."- Steven Wright

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Posted By: zach

you're right about Ty Cobb prices not going down but compare that amount to say his e94...big change. As said before these cards are created scarce by the company and not by time. Believe me these cards will not hold their values but vintage alawys will. Also I paid less than 300 dollars for my matty t206...which one would you rather have ? I still don't see that just because topps spent 3 cents on a little blue holder that it more than doubles the value of the card. I paid less than 300 dollars for this.....I think I would rather have this and keep the other 100 dollars insted of buying the "buy back" matty any day of the week.

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Posted By: Al Crisafulli

"I think I would rather have this and keep the other 100 dollars insted of buying the "buy back" matty any day of the week."

That's what's great about this hobby. There's something for everyone.

I don't particularly like the shiny stuff, but I think this is a hobby that appeals to many different people, for many different reasons. If someone gets joy out of collecting shiny cards, or buybacks, or whatever, and they have the budget to do so, more power to them. There are many collectors who are not concerned with the financial appreciation (or lack thereof) of the cards in their collection.

I've seen threads on various boards where people get all over collectors who like high-grade vintage cards in slabs only. Those threads almost always degenerate into an argument where the purists criticize the high-grade collector, stating that they're not really "collectors" but "accumulators", who don't collect out of love for the hobby and are only interested in the value of their investments. But then threads like this one come along, and the modern card collector is criticized for overpaying for cards that will never retain their value. But I would say that the one thing many of us have in common is that our love affair with the hobby began with us opening a pack of worthless modern cards at some point.

We like what we like.

-Al

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Posted By: zach

we like what we like. I just don't like the fact that Topps has made a card that was by no means rare into a rarity.

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Posted By: Josh K.

Hey Zach,

Just remember, according to Adam M., your matty probably ain't worth squat since it wont grade higher than a 3 or a 4 tops. You better get what you can for it right now and go buy the topps "buy back" matty. That pretty holder will grade at least a 7.

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Posted By: Bob Rousseau

"I just don't like the fact that Topps has made a card that was by no means rare into a rarity."

that's capitalism at its worst (best?) Sort of like the shysters who stamped "1/1" on some common modern cards and then sold them on Ebay trying to get someone to bite.

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Posted By: RC McKenzie

In 15 years Upper Deck could buy the beater Mathewson in the topps holder and place the whole thing into their UD holder as a 1/1 insert.