Buyer Beware: CMIZ5290 board member

[todeen]

Buyer Beware when dealing with Net54 member CMIZ5290 (Kevin Mize).

Nuts and bolts:
CMIZ5290 sold me a 33 Goudey Gehrig in June, and advertised it with a guarantee as "Fair condition....I guarantee the card to be authentic, and will grade," (See his OP in a screenshot). I sent it to SGC on June 16, shortly after I received it from Kevin, on a 10 day sub. After 130+ days with SGC, they determined the card as ALTERED (see SGC screenshot). I asked CMIZ5290 for a refund due to his guarantee, and he has declined.


More Details:
CMIZ5290 responded to my request by stating, "I guaranteed the card to grade as an orignal card (not a reprint, etc...), and it did... I did not guarantee a numerical grade." In my interpretation of his OP, that is not how he advertised the card. Personally, I wouldn't have had a problem if the Gehrig only graded as authentic, and I wouldn't be asking for a refund. However, I'm pretty sure some of the board members feel that the designation of ALTERED is less than the designation of Authentic. Some collectors just hate that designation. I am one of them. So even if he only guaranteed the card as authentic, the card did not receive that grade from SGC. I don't want to own an altered card, I wanted to own a beat up old Authentic card. That's why I'm requesting a refund.

This was my first TPG submission, so I'm not extremely experienced with grading. Maybe with more experience I could have foreseen this and not bought the card, but the description and guarantee of the card, in addition to Kevin's 6000+ posts led me to believe I could have faith in an honorable purchase and transaction from a veteran board member.

***I know some of you will be asking to see a picture of the returned card from SGC to determine if I made any alterations. I expect the card to be delivered from USPS today. I missed the delivery and signature confirmation yesterday 11/06, and if they don't deliver card today I can pick it up at the Post Office on Monday 11/09. I will post a picture when I have it in hand, and you can see for yourself it is the same card I received from CMIZ5290 without any additional changes. But he is still actively selling on the board and I thought this was a timely Public Service Announcement***

[perezfan]

As a seller, I was stiffed twice by this same guy...

The first time, he simply never paid for an item that he reserved. Didn't even have the courtesy to write me to say he changed his mind. I had to reach out 4 times, before being graced with his rude reply that he no longer wanted the item. His inappropriate tone indicated that I was somehow out of line for pursuing the issue (after two weeks of being ignored).

The second time, he simply lied about sending the money. He said the check was in the mail. Of course it never arrived. Had he really sent it, he would have inquired or followed up to see if I received the payment. Instead, I never heard from him again.

My fault on the second occurrence.... I should never have given him a second chance.

I hope you get your refund without having to endure a huge ordeal. I really wish this member could be barred from this site, or at a minimum from the BST.

I've had well over 100 easy/successful transactions here, and only 2 that went bad... BOTH from the same person.

[iwantitiwinit]

I have bought several higher dollar cards from cmiz5290 and have never had an issue. Cards were as advertised and sent within a reasonable amount of time. In my experience communication is not always instantaneous but is adequate.

[Eric72]

"I guarantee the card to be authentic..."
- CMIZ5290

Easy enough to understand.



"...and grade."
- CMIZ5290

What does this mean, if not to mean grade numerically?



I am genuinely curious.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Eric72

"I guarantee the card to be authentic..."
- CMIZ5290

Easy enough to understand.



"...and grade."
- CMIZ5290

What does this mean, if not to mean grade numerically?



I am genuinely curious.

I am with you. I think what he did is a bunch of BS and am contemplating what to do .....

.

[conor912]

It begs the question, is “authentic” a grade?

Talk amongst yaselves.

[3-2-count]

Originally Posted by conor912

It begs the question, is “authentic” a grade?

In my opinion, it is not!

[Leon]

Originally Posted by conor912

It begs the question, is “authentic” a grade?

Talk amongst yaselves.

No, saying something will grade is not meaning AUT in our sphere. Period. That is my thought But i am listening. And the OP asked me about this situation and if he should post it. My answer is obvious....
I don't think we want weasley semantics on our forum. But I am listening...


.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Leon

No, saying something will grade is not meaning AUT in our sphere. Period. That is my thought But i am listening. And the OP asked me about this situation and if he should post it. My answer is obvious....
I don't think we want weasley semantics on our forum. But I am listening...


.

I agree, but apparently there’s at least one person who perhaps doesn’t.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by conor912

I agree, but apparently there’s at least one person who perhaps doesn’t.

My thought is when everyone else is wrong then you (not you specifically) need to look in the mirror. This place needs to be as collector friendly as possible. I doubt Kevin will be able to sell on here any longer if he doesn't offer the refund.

,

[Casey2296]

-Integrity-

The choice between what is convenient and what is right.

[clydepepper]

Well said Boss!

[Throttlesteer]

Its an authentic Gehrig. At the very least, the seller should accept the return and refund + grading fee. Its not like the card can't be sold again. Its not worth your reputation based on a misunderstanding of semantics for a $1k card.

[Exhibitman]

Lemme inject a little contract law here: first, we take words of a contract at their common meanings unless there are terms of art involved, and second, we do not assume that people insert meaningless clauses. The statement "authentic, and will grade" is a guarantee of two things, set apart by the ", and'. Authentic means it is not a fake but it could be altered. "Will grade" means it will be assigned a numerical grade by a TPG. In the hobby "grade" is commonly understood to refer to a numerical grade. If the guarantee was only meant to be "authentic" and if "authentic" also was intended to itself be a grade, then the second clause of the guarantee would be superfluous. The fact that it was added to the guarantee means one of two things:

--The seller warranted the card to not only be authentic but to also get a numerical grade, as the buyer understood it; or

--The seller misled the buyer, whether or not intentionally, by using this phrase.

Either way, the likely outcome in my court is a ruling for the buyer.

MORE TO THE POINT THIS IS A GEHRIG SOLD BETWEEN MEMBERS OF THE BOARD AND A GENTLEMAN WOULD REFUND THE BUYER AND RESELL THE CARD. A fellow member is unhappy and scorching your rep publicly, it isn't worth it. Besides, I'm sure there is a ready market for the card in any condition. Hell, in the four months since the sale and in this market it is probably worth more.

[samosa4u]

Tim is a great guy and he has had a pretty rough year due to health issues. I reached out to him and we had a nice chat (I've been down the same road). It's sad that somebody would put him through this. Kevin, stop behaving like a dickhead and give the guy his money back.

[Tyruscobb]

I do not personally know the seller or buyer. I have never transacted with them. I make these statements to illustrate that I am not biased, and have no dog in this fight. Im not saying one is right and the other is wrong. I’m just providing how I interpret the seller’s post.

I think the seller has painted himself into a corner. Let’s break down his advertising post, which is an invitation for an offer.

His first two words were “fair condition.” This is special language that the hobby universally recognizes means the card’s condition is equivalent to a 1.5 grade. The industry standard is that poor condition means a one grade, fair condition means a 1.5 grade, and good condition means a two grade. So, from the very beginning, the seller is telling potentially buyers that he thinks the card will grade a 1.5.

Later, the seller states, “I guarantee the card to be authentic and grade.” There are two reasonable inferences a potential buyer can draw from this statement. The first is the that seller is guaranteeing the card is authentic. Simple enough.

Secondly and significantly, the seller also guarantees the card will grade. But, what “grade” is the seller guaranteeing? Well, let’s go back to the post’s first two word - “fair condition” which again the hobby universally recognizes is a 1.5.

“Guarantee” is such a strong word. It undoubtedly helps any seller sell a card. The reason is a buyer relies on this word and trusts that the card is what the seller guarantees it is.

In this case, the post’s plain language and its reasonably inference is the seller guaranteed the card’s authenticity and that it would grade a 1.5. The card was not what the seller guaranteed. The question is now: what is the proper remedy, if any, if the card does not meet a seller’s guarantee on this site?

[Lorewalker]

Dunno either person here but the post by the seller was ambiguous in his using the word "grade". The buyer is not happy regardless so for 1K is it worth being seen as a deadbeat, losing selling privileges here and possibly being banned?

Even if those things are not on the line, it really should not be that hard to do the right thing.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Dunno either person here but the post by the seller was ambiguous in his using the word "grade". The buyer is not happy regardless so for 1K is it worth being seen as a deadbeat, losing selling privileges here and possibly being banned?

Even if those things are not on the line, it really should not be that hard to do the right thing.

Oh, trust me, all of them are on the line.

[Jcosta19]

Originally Posted by perezfan

As a seller, I was stiffed twice by this same guy...

The first time, he simply never paid for an item that he reserved. Didn't even have the courtesy to write me to say he changed his mind. I had to reach out 4 times, before being graced with his rude reply that he no longer wanted the item. His inappropriate tone indicated that I was somehow out of line for pursuing the issue (after two weeks of being ignored).

The second time, he simply lied about sending the money. He said the check was in the mail. Of course it never arrived. Had he really sent it, he would have inquired or followed up to see if I received the payment. Instead, I never heard from him again.

My fault on the second occurrence.... I should never have given him a second chance.

I hope you get your refund without having to endure a huge ordeal. I really wish this member could be barred from this site, or at a minimum from the BST.

I've had well over 100 easy/successful transactions here, and only 2 that went bad... BOTH from the same person.

This alone is very concerning behavior and should make anyone pause.

If I could just send a quick "ill take it" before anyone else on new posts and THEN research the card and recent prices and only actually take it if the deal looked good....well I'd have a lot more cards right now.

Not saying that's what happened in these cases since I have no first hand knowledge but it is not a good look.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[Seven]

I can't speak to the situation, Tim I'm sorry you're going through this trouble though. I can speak personally though in terms of purchasing from Tim, Tim is a great all around guy, very fair and communicative. He was one of the first people I purchased from on the board, and was more than happy to answer any and all of my questions.

I don't think it's particularly fair to you, Tim with everything going on, but I will say that at a minimum if you can't get a refund, I'm sure someone would be more than happy to purchase the card from you at the same price you paid for it, if not more.

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Leon

Oh, trust me, all of them are on the line.

Rightfully so, Leon. I guess this is why we have police. Some people need to be caught and punished because they cannot do the right thing on their own accord. Just don't get putting a 1K price tag on one's reputation.

Even if the seller refunds it should not have even taken being humiliated in a thread to make the correction.

[griffon512]

I guess this means shark's tooth necklaces may no longer be available to purchase on the Board. Damn shame.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Lorewalker

Dunno either person here but the post by the seller was ambiguous in his using the word "grade". The buyer is not happy regardless so for 1K is it worth being seen as a deadbeat, losing selling privileges here and possibly being banned?

Even if those things are not on the line, it really should not be that hard to do the right thing.

Somehow I think it might be difficult for Kevin to make a sale to people he hasn't dealt with before because of this. He's probably done the right thing many times in the past and there will be people who trust him and those people will continue to purchase cards from him. But trying to make a sale to other members that have read this thread may be a "hard sell".

Just curious, was the card encapsulated with an ALTERED flip? Or was it not encapsulated at all? Any idea what the alteration is?

Question - if Kevin refunds the money, is he also so supposed to pay the grading fee?

Kevin,

If you've had the card over 30 years ago, then your cost on the card (cash or trade) would probably be a lot less than what you sold it for on the BST. Just my opinion, I'd refund the buyer, pay the grading fee (if the card is encapsulated) and sell it to someone that wouldn't mind the card with an ALT designation. If the card is not encapsulated, then that may be a tough sell.


Here are two recent sales for a 33G Gehrig card flipped as AUTH or ALT on fleabay.

I sure hope everyone finds a satisfactory conclusion to this.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1933-Goudey...p2047675.l2557


https://www.ebay.com/itm/1933-Goudey...8AAOSwXQ1fKs30

[CJinPA]

Originally Posted by Leon

Oh, trust me, all of them are on the line.

Pretty new to the net54 boards myself but one of the things I've really, really enjoyed is the integrity that people uphold here. I was originally clued in to the site by DJ x2drich2000 while completing a transaction on a card he was selling. Since then, I've purchased from Leon (via his site, nice E92 Dockmans, thank you!), Stetson_1883 and also from Gary Nuchereno through Ed Hans.

Not inexpensive transactions, to say the least but the integrity and 'birds of a feather' crowd make these transactions easy and worthwhile.

I'm not sure why the seller wouldn't refund and accept the card back. The words of the guarantee are there for all to see - INTEGRITY!

[Tao_Moko]

Am I the only one that doesn't like the look of this card? It is not a set I've ever given much attention to, but based solely on the above picture would have walked away. As far as the transaction - we are a community and sometimes bs has to be called out for buyer and/or seller conduct. This is the jury. Pretty overwhelming that a refund should be given.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by griffon512

I guess this means shark's tooth necklaces may no longer be available to purchase on the Board. Damn shame.

If something isn't illegal, or too offending and in the correct BST spot, a member could try to sell them.

>

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by griffon512

I guess this means shark's tooth necklaces may no longer be available to purchase on the Board. Damn shame.

That would be in the Golf B/S/T under the Greg Norman subheader.

[Jgrace]

My $0.02:

Both buyers and sellers need to use clear language in these situations. “Grade” is not enough. “Grade numerically” or “grade authentic” should be used to set expectations. If a seller doesn’t provide that, the prospective buyer should demand that clarity.

That said, in this case I would have interpreted the language as a guarantee of a numeric grade, and expected a return if it turned out that the item was altered. I think that goes with the expectations of selling on this forum, and the trust that is required to make this whole thing work. However, I don’t believe the guarantee should extend to cover any grading costs (in this case, with the weak language).

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

That would be in the Golf B/S/T under the Greg Norman subheader.

That isn't that big of a deal, to me. This other stuff is. I move threads every day into the correct spots.

And fyi, Kevin might be away doing things outside the hobby, who knows. So the piling on is sort of that. It's an overwhelming sentiment of what should be done and should have already been done. We'll see. With longtime board members I don't think decisions like this should be made quickly, unless there is theft or something. (and I guess one could argue anything but this isn't theft to me)
.

[bnorth]

I am a little late to the party, here is my opinion. Kevin clearly posted the condition, fair. He guaranteed it to be an authentic card and grade.

The card did not grade so he should refund, pretty plain and simple in my opinion.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Leon

That isn't that big of a deal, to me. This other stuff is. I move threads every day into the correct spots.

And fyi, Kevin might be away doing things outside the hobby, who knows. So the piling on is sort of that. It's an overwhelming sentiment of what should be done and should have already been done. We'll see. With longtime board members I don't think decisions like this should be made quickly, unless there is theft or something. (and I guess one could argue anything but this isn't theft to me)
.

Kevin HAS been on the board in the last hour.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Kevin HAS been on the board in the last hour.

ok, I didn't check. No response is a response, of course.


.

[ullmandds]

ruh roh?

I'm curious why the card did not receive a numeric grade? I mean aside from looking to be in fair/poor condition I see no obvious signs of alterations (and who would even bother on a card in this condition?)

[pokerplyr80]

If he just said the card is guaranteed authentic that would have been fine. And grade would be interpreted by most, myself included, as the card will receive a numerical grade.

This should be an easy call. Refund the purchase price and grading fees and move on. Or stop selling on this site.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Leon

My thought is when everyone else is wrong then you (not you specifically) need to look in the mirror. This place needs to be as collector friendly as possible. I doubt Kevin will be able to sell on here any longer if he doesn't offer the refund.

,

Aaaaand Keeping up With the Kardashians is ending?

[Tyruscobb]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

I'm curious why the card did not receive a numeric grade?

It is difficult to access why the card received an altered grade without examining it in person, and potentially without a loupe. The seller has owned it since 1990. Back then, we all used screw-down holders, which can alter the stock.

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

(and who would even bother on a card in this condition?)

No need to insult a man. We all have limited resources and different disposable income levels. Some members can only afford lower grade vintage cards, while others here have the ability to purchase a T-206 Wagner. There was a great post in this month’s pickup thread on this very issue.

[wondo]

Originally Posted by Tyruscobb

It is difficult to access why the card received an altered grade without examining it in person, and potentially without a loupe. The seller has owned it since 1990. Back then, we all used screw-down holders, which can alter the stock.



No need to insult a man. We all have limited resources and different disposable income levels. Some members can only afford lower grade vintage cards, while others here have the ability to purchase a T-206 Wagner. There was a great post in this month’s pickup thread on this very issue.

I believe he was referencing that the card is well-worn so why would somebody alter it. I do not believe Dan was disparaging the buyer.

[Tyruscobb]

Originally Posted by wondo

I believe he was referencing that the card is well-worn so why would somebody alter it. I do not believe Dan was disparaging the buyer.

I stand corrected. I misinterpreted the post. I thought he was saying why even bother purchasing a card in that condition. I now see that he probably meant why would anyone bother altering a card in that condition.

My apologies, Dan.

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by iwantitiwinit

I have bought several higher dollar cards from cmiz5290 and have never had an issue. Cards were as advertised and sent within a reasonable amount of time. In my experience communication is not always instantaneous but is adequate.

I do not like these kinds of positive feedback. . Many sellers have good transactions..........until they don’t.

[Leon]

Just an fyi... Kevin and I are talking through emails at this point. ..Yawl will know how it comes out sooner than later.

Originally Posted by Tyruscobb

No need to insult a man. We all have limited resources and different disposable income levels. Some members can only afford lower grade vintage cards, while others here have the ability to purchase a T-206 Wagner. There was a great post in this month’s pickup thread on this very issue.

That wasn’t an insult...slow your roll my man. All I’m saying is the card is clearly worn and I don’t understand how or why anyone would make an attempt to improve it.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

That wasn’t an insult...slow your roll my man. All I’m saying is the card is clearly worn and I don’t understand how or why anyone would make an attempt to improve it.

Because eye appeal makes a huge price difference in lower graded cards in general.

Originally Posted by Tyruscobb

I stand corrected. I misinterpreted the post. I thought he was saying why even bother purchasing a card in that condition. I now see that he probably meant why would anyone bother altering a card in that condition.

My apologies, Dan.

No problem...right back at you

[Tyruscobb]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

That wasn’t an insult...slow your roll my man. All I’m saying is the card is clearly worn and I don’t understand how or why anyone would make an attempt to improve it.

I screw up like the next guy. Ha

[todeen]

Kevin sent me an email, we're at least talking again.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[sando69]

congratulations on an incredible display of salesmanship.

furthermore, thank you for the opportunity (for all of us) to formulate an accurate opinion in regards to your integrity.

seems this has been a particularly bad day for douchebags.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by sando69

seems this has been a particularly bad day for douchebags.

I see what you did there .

[glynparson]

Originally Posted by sando69

congratulations on an incredible display of salesmanship.

furthermore, thank you for the opportunity (for all of us) to formulate an accurate opinion in regards to your integrity.

seems this has been a particularly bad day for douchebags.

Great post

For the record I have bought from Kevin and even was able to get a bump
On a few higher dollar cards. Of course after that happened he pretty much wouldn’t sell me anything else. He is an odd duck. I wish i could say this shocked me but it really didn’t. I don’t think he’d totally stiff someone but I am not surprised by his position here at all.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Is it interesting that Kevin hasn't commented once in this thread in his own defense?