Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Mike. You may think differently Al but you cannot be completely objective.

[Archive]

Posted By: Al C.risafulli

I asked a question, that's all. I didn't voice an opinion.

-Al

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

You're right--thought this was a consensus view.

[Archive]

Posted By: John

Actually Jim, Wes or anyone else for that matter isn’t repeating me, just you. Or did you forget about the below comments in this very thread? Sure seems like your asking people to put Kevin’s professional opinion above that of the grading companies and or selected auction houses…

And once again you only read what you want to, why not let Kevin and I debate this I actually am interested in Kevin’s thoughts and hope he can see my point of view as I try to grasp his. Believe it or not Jim we can do this with out you tagging along for the ride and tossing unnecessary fuel on the fire.






“On our friend Kevin, while he may not have all the answers he certainly has recognized a fair amout of altered cards in holders and has shown the ability to get alterations by the best graders in the business. Not only did Kevin not pay me to say this but I am buying him dinner the week after next.”

“By the way Barry if I bought something at your auction and sent it to Kevin to look at and he told me the card looked suspicious would you let me return the card?”

“Lets let Barry answer it Peter--Barry if I bought 5 high end cards in your auction, sent them to Kevin and Kevin said in his opinion only two could he say with confidence have not been altered could I return the other 3???”

“But to reiterate if I bought a $15,000 card off a dealer's sell list, I would say its contingent upon Kevin's seal of approval. Dealer sends me card--I send to Kevin, Kevin returns card to me with his opinion and I either then send check to dealer or return the card.”

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Litigation is a strange world, but here's a concept that may move the discussion forward. Don't bother with a third-party expert opinion until the lawsuit is filed.

In other words if you do not trust a vendor with graded cards, don't buy from them. If there's a subsequent lawsuit then get a third-party opinion.

Peter C.

[Archive]

Posted By: PAS

I have no opinion on who the best grader is but it seems the market does not necessarily have a consensus view that it is Mike, given where GAI cards seem to be selling relative to SGC and PSA.

[Archive]

Posted By: Al C.risafulli

I would imagine that anybody who has a dog in this race would be unable to offer an unbiased opinion on who is the best grader in the hobby.

Furthermore, I'm unaware of any way that collectors like us can tell which individual graded any particular card that's currently in a holder. So I'm not sure how to judge which individual person is the best grader. I know which companies I trust and which company I don't, but that's about as far as my limited knowledge can take me.

-Al

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

To answer John's question, and after giving this matter some thought, all sales are final on graded cards unless the grading company made an error of such magnitude that it was impossible for me to deny it. If a card is graded PSA 5 and the buyer complains the corner looks flattened, we are done.

That's my policy, and I stand behind it (or even in front of it).

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Thank you Wonka--you made my point--now keep your sarcasm to yourself.

[Archive]

Posted By: John

Really Jim I did, you actually had a point and I made it. Well I guess there is a first time for everything?

As for your order to keep to myself well, to quote a phrase that's all the rage...no thanks Jim I wont be "strong armed by anyone" don’t like my views oh well get over it.

[Archive]

Posted By: Kevin Saucier

"Because he makes a few posts on message boards? Nothing personal against Kevin because he seems like a very nice guy (Hi Kevin) but to think his opinion carries more weight than established grading companies or auction houses is ridiculous."



Great, then I won't post about how to identify altered cards any longer.
Saves me time, engery and a lot of headaches. I've never said my opinion carries more weight than anyone or any company...or ever claimed to be an expert.

_______________________

"What makes Kevin more knowledgeable than the other guys who get cards past the graders?"


Nothing. The only excpetion is those guys steal from you and I try to show you how they do it.

________________________

John - I give up, your posts are far beyond any comment I can make. Other than you are a prime example of why IMO collectors would rather lurk then post here. I'm going back to my basement.

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Don't do that. I've always valued your opinion. However, I'm not overly concerned about altered cards. If I get mad enough, I'm just going to file a lawsuit and sue everybody. Except for you guys of course, I have too much fun on this board to do that.

Peter C.

[Archive]

Posted By: Wesley

Kevin, Please don't take the comments personally. I think your paper experiments are very interesting. It was Jim who asked that sales and returns be contingient on your opinion. This might be reasonable, but some may wonder why your opinion trumps those of an auction house or those of third party graders.

[Archive]

Posted By: E, Daniel

I've never seen Kevin be anything but pleasant and helpful on this board. Very clearly in this thread, and in others he has participated in, he hasn't been afforded the same courtesy. I've never read him post that his opinion should be taken up by all, or trumps others, he's simply offered it. And for that, he's been undercut and disparaged.
If Jim wants to trumptet Kevin's skills as more than that, I don't see that as any reason to feel the need to 'cut him down to size'. And that's the way some posts read in this thread.

Piss poor IMO.


Daniel

[Archive]

Posted By: E, Daniel

You remind me of some kid running between groups of 'popular' peers, trying to massage everyone into liking and listening to you. Boy its gotten tiring reading 12 posts by you in a thread when you don't add any knowledge - just energetic mouthings.


Daniel

[Archive]

Posted By: John

“John - I give up, your posts are far beyond any comment I can make. Other than you are a prime example of why IMO collectors would rather lurk then post here.”

Kevin,

Come on your more intelligent than that…

I’m the prime example of why so many great people don’t post here.


Here is the hearsay yet to be proven IMO,

You can get most anything past graders and are some sort of super hero.

Tons of super collectors are scared off by me and others on this board. Hmmmm the other board is according to you and others some sort of wonderland utopia. I post there too good board (Hi Jay, Scott) yet I don’t see Don L, Marshall F or any other super collectors posting over there. What gives? In fact for the most part I see the same names different GUI, perhaps these so called closet collectors just don’t post, because they don’t care too?


Here are the facts,

Lots of folk’s post here including myself. I actually post far less than many others. I only really post to either share images, or voice opinions on subjects I feel strongly about. Sometimes that means I disagree with you or someone else, that can mean we don’t see eye to eye oh well. I will call it as I see it which seems to be more than some folks can handle. I can’t help that, perhaps these folks should stay away from boards where differences of opinions can be had.

You have shown a handful of images of so called doctored cards, you openly brag about doctored cards and how talented you are at getting them by graders. You really show very little proof of this, short of generic images, with mild story lines below them. You alluded to a book that you would be selling, and then changed your tune with a series of charitable posts which was appreciated and very nice for the record. You are however very vague in your discussions around your doctoring hobby and what your overall goal is, sorry if I’m not ready to blindly believe you and take your posts as some sort of gold. The one thing you have shown with out a doubt is that fraud in this hobby can be done via doctoring; but most folks know this is nothing new you’ve stumbled upon here.


Here is where I’m torn, (nothing personal)

If the above images are correct, what makes me think they never get sold as is? And why should I think you are some sort of Card Doctor Robin Hood vs. any other guy who doctors cards for ill gotten gains. What separates you from the others, and how are we who are not a part of this inner circle to assume or trust 100% in your opinion?

I don’t think that it is unfair at all, but if you fell it is that’s your opinion I respect that.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

12?

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Wonka, I'm like you, I've always been leery about Net54ers discussing altered cards. Nothing says that criminals can't be members of Net54. If I wanted to be an ace counterfeiter, I'd lurk on this board and check out Kevin's "experiments." It would make me better at my craft.

Peter C.

[Archive]

Posted By: E, Daniel

I think I can see something rising.......



Daniel

[Archive]

Posted By: Al C.risafulli

I don't know that anyone participating in this thread is out to cut anyone down to size.

The thread began as a statement on high-grade Goudeys and the direction shifted when Kevin and Jim stated that they would not buy from an auction house due to altered cards in holders being sold there. Jim made a statement that he would not buy cards from anyone who would not let Kevin give his seal of approval, and that began a very enlightening thread where, inbetween unnecessary (IMO) jabs at Jim and his unwillingness to resubmit his cards, we discussed the relative merits of regrading graded cards.

It was - and is - my opinion that there are lots of knowledgeable people out there when it comes to the topic of alterations. However, in my opinion the grading companies already serve as the independent evaluator of whether a card is good or not. Each of us can make our own decisions as to which of those companies we trust and which we don't. However, the point that I and (I think) others were trying to make had nothing whatsoever to do with the degree to which Kevin actually possesses the competency to do what Jim is suggesting. The point was that the grading companies have established their credibility and their brands over the course of a decade of providing this service, evaluating cards, lending their expertise in many different situations, and holdering literally millions of cards of all shapes and sizes, years and varieties. The question, at least in my mind, was whether it is a realistic expectation that one person - regardless of who it is - should have an opinion that trumps that of those companies who have (mostly) built their credibility over such a long period of time.

In Kevin's defense, he never claimed in this thread that he should - that claim was Jim's, and I don't think he intended to throw Kevin to the wolves with his statements. At the same time, however, Kevin has mentioned on this board as well as the other board that he IS planning to create a business where he actually DOES apply his seal of approval to already-graded cards. Given that, I do think it's entirely acceptable for people to question his credentials - just like he and others question the credentials of the graders. But I do feel that the questions are legitimate, particularly when there are multiple statements being made and examples being shown that call into question the credentials and competence of others.

Edited to remove a statement that could be viewed as insulting, because that's not my intent.

-Al

[Archive]

Posted By: PAS

Nothing personal, as I like Kevin and wish him success, but I continue to question the utility of such a service given the limited ability to opine on a card without being able to examine the edges.

[Archive]

Posted By: E, Daniel

I agree that there already exists arbiters of condition in the market, that they have the confidence (relatively ) of most hobbyists and are arguably at least as experienced and able as any other group could offer. On the whole I think the pounding/griping/groaning that fixates many on this board regarding the number on the flips they recieve is stupendously boring.

I don't need Kevin's seal on anything just as I don't need any other grading company's where I feel my own eyes and knowledge are sufficient, and will happily take their help where I believe it assists me. It's unlikely I would feel the need to extend that request to Kevin, but where I felt his opinion valuable (and have once already - about 2 months ago) why not? I also don't believe the sky is falling regarding altered cards in the hobby, though it must be said that statements from SGC and Auction Houses have quite strongly suggested that the numbers are higher than 'occasional'.

My only comment was to the language used to describe Kevin's abilities or lack thereof, his intentions, etc.
If you re-read the above thread you might agree that others have been less than generous, or might not. I am as yet to see anything he has said or done to warrant the snide tone in those posts.




Daniel

[Archive]

Posted By: John

While we are all making the world a better place and group hugging each other by holding back what you may feel are snide comments, which I and dare I say others feel are pretty reasonable questions and or concerns.

Perhaps you can take your own advice the last few comments to Peter were pretty snide don’t you think. Talk about playing both sides of the fence…LOL

Not defending Peter per say, but seems very hypocritical of you there E. Daniel.

“Keep massaging Peter C, I think I can see something rising….”

“You remind me of some kid running between groups of 'popular' peers, trying to massage everyone into liking and listening to you. Boy its gotten tiring reading 12 posts by you in a thread when you don't add any knowledge - just energetic mouthings. “

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

John,

Thanks for defending me, but it's not necessary. I doubt if the popular kids are spending their time posting on Net54.

I still enjoy it, I'm having fun, that's why I do it.

Peter C.

[Archive]

Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Daniel:

I understand. People get riled up. I'm not immune to that, either, particularly on this topic. I try not to, but it doesn't always work.

-Al

[Archive]

Posted By: John

Oh I’m not defending you I don’t even like you!

Seriously I just thought that was pretty hypocritical of ED…

As for Lichtman picking on you I cant help you there he’s on retainer and gets free cards each time I speak out of turn…and he likes the same restaurants I do to boot.

[Archive]

Posted By: cmoking

Kevin has spent a few hours with me explaining certain issues about card alterations that has been highly educational and eye opening to me. More importantly he was able to show me certain things that I would have never ever seen otherwise. For those of you that really want to get a better understanding of what the bad guys are doing in our hobby (so you can avoid it as much as you can), I think you'd be interested in spending some time with Kevin. I don't mean to spend Kevin's time for him, but I've found him to be very generous with his time and energy. Just send him an email, I'm sure he's willing to talk.

FWIW, Jim, what the heck are you doing? With all your talk, why don't you spend an afternoon when you're out in southern California and go meet and talk to Kevin. Bring a handful of PSA 8 cards in your briefcase and see what he can show you. Don't be scared. The truth will set you free.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Speaking of, John, that was a nice T205 you posted on the other thread. It didn't escape my attention. Please box it up and send it my way.

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

King,

We are different in that regard--but I am having dinner with Kevin in a couple of weeks.

Kevin, Please keep posting here and ignore Wonka and his constant stream of invective. Actually most of the time he doesn't read and post and the board does not have to deal with it.

[Archive]

Posted By: cmoking

excellent. have a good time guys.

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Al,

I don't disagree with what you say but....

1)We both agree that more altered cards are getting into holders
2)It is extremely difficult to look at a picture on a screen and know whether the card has been altered
3)If these statements are true why take the risk nof buying an altered card at auction. Charlie says what is the difference if the card looks good but it makes a difference to, sounds as it makes a difference to King and I bet it makes a difference to others.
4)Why not get another expert to look at the card and give his opinion on whether it is legit or not. Whether its Reza or Mike or Dave Forman or Kevin is not the issue here.
5)If the person has doubts the card can be returned--at bleast with the dealers I buy from.
6)Auctioneers would have difficulty following this business model as they get a lot of their cards on consignment.
7)Because of this and because of the shady business practices of certain auctioneers I think we will move back toward the Steve Novella/Peter Lalos/Kris Keppler business model of doing business.
8)Whether we do or don't, I will be very reluctant to but a card at auction if I have any doubts about authenticity.

Thats all I am saying.

In response some people attack Kevin(bizarre)and some tell me to get my cards refraded(which is not going to happen).

All seems pretty straightforward to me.

Cheers,

Jim

[Archive]

Posted By: John

“Kevin, Please keep posting here and ignore Wonka and his constant stream of invective. Actually most of the time he doesn't read and post and the board does not have to deal with it.”



Actually I read all the time. Something you should start doing more often yourself for the record.

****But since you seem to have the pulse of this board enough to speak for them, let’s see who the people here would rather see more posts from me or you?****

In fact I wasn’t aware I made this place so awful so lets find if I do, and if the answer is yes Wonka ruins the board for everyone then I’ll leave you guys too it.

Leon you have my word on this…no more Wonka.

One small catch if you accept my challenge, if you come up short on this little witch hunt how about you take a break and box up your keyboard and or sit on your hands for awhile?

You game Crandall, here’s your chance put up or shut up?

I’ve had just about enough of your wining and crying, I ask pointed legitimate questions, I’m so sorry you cant deal with it, and constantly misconstrue everything I write as some all hell breaking loose personal attack. Heck you even respond to posts that aren't even directed to you! Short of the few card you’ve began to post you have been nothing but an antagonist on this board, even when I’m not posting your finding someone else to blame for all the worlds problems.

Face it Jim I don’t pick on your family, spread rumors about you etc. I just disagree with 99% of your posts, deal with it already and stop hiding behind a wall of “victim” bricks.

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

I don't want this kind of "poll" on the board to see who is more popular or unpopular. You and Jim C are both valuable board members and I hope it stays that way.....Both of you are intelligent and provocative....and die hard collectors....lets just try to get along and collect cards together.......best regards

[Archive]

Posted By: John

Leon, thought you would feel that way. But for someone who cry’s about personal attacks etc. I think Jim takes way too many liberties with this “the board’ crap. He is not the majority voice or acting royalty on here, perhaps he should stop making comments like the above, especially if he wants everyone to get along etc.

In the past few months, just having fun on here and asking questions and or voicing opinions on active topics, which last I checked was the purpose of this place last I checked. I’ve been threatened to be sued LOL, and continue to have this clown address posts that aren’t even directed at him. Sorry but it just gets plain old after awhile.

John

[Archive]

Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Jim:

I need to be clear about something: I DO NOT agree that more altered cards are getting into holders. That has not been my experience. I believe that more altered cards are getting into SOME holders. And mitigating the risk comes down to the level of trust you have in your grader of choice.

Everything else you said makes sense to me. However, if I were to purchase a card at auction, and discover it to be altered, I would take it back to SGC and they will review the card and give me an opinion. If they agree that the card is altered, they'll buy back the card.

I'm sure PSA's customers are just as confident in PSA's willingness to stand behind their product.

But I need to be clear about something else: I do not feel that removing a pencil mark from a card and getting it into a holder, taking glue off the back of a T206, or removing dirt or a wax stain from a card constitutes an "alteration." When I see someone removing glue from a card and then criticizing the grading company for giving the card a 2, I think they're missing part of the point.

I also think there's a key difference between an auction house selling a card and a dealer doing the same. A dealer owns inventory and represents it a certain way in order to obtain the maximum dollars that they can put in their pocket. An auction house takes a commission for facilitating a transaction between a buyer and a seller. The auction house (at least in theory) does not actually own the merchandise. To ask the house to assume the financial risk associated with the grading company not doing its job, in my opinion, is unreasonable, since the auction house is responsible for paying the seller immediately after the close of the auction. It's the grading company's problem, IMO.

Edited for clarity, because my fingers move faster than my dim-witted brain.
Edited once again, because I'm no less dim-witted now than I was the first time I edited.

-Al

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

As usual I will not respond to this individuals unending stream of invective toward me and I guess now Kevin.

Cheers everyone.

Jim

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Al,

I think the auction house will make their own decisions. If collectors show an increasing reluctance to buy expensive cards at auction, they may have to install some buyback provision over time. I know you are confident the number of altered cards getting through is diminishing but I hear too many things to believe that is true.

Anyway, people will make their own decisions but for the time being I have made mine.

Seems like the air has been taken out of this thread somaybe this it.

Remember I still owe you dinner. Give me some dates.

Jim

[Archive]

Posted By: Larry Haven

Jim C.,

I've noticed that you and a couple of others with monstrous, valuable collections (Ted Z., etc.) are constantly being attacked by the same few people here. Weren't there two other collectors with huge collections who were run off this board some months ago by these same posters? Maybe if they run off enough hobby giants, they'll eventually have the biggest collections in this forum and can feel better about themselves?

Larry Haven

[Archive]

Posted By: PAS

As a collector, I agree with Jim that it is much better to buy a card from a dealer with whom one has a good relationship than out of an auction where, even apart from concerns about bid practices (which I don't happen to share), there is no right of return if you don't like the card, no opportunity to trade, etc. etc. While obviously auction houses continue to flourish, I hope that eventually, over time, more people will consign their collections to dealers like the ones Jim mentioned to sell for them.

[Archive]

Posted By: John

Larry,

Don’t let anyone ever tell you you’re not a funny guy, that’s one of the funniest things I’ve ever read on this board. Jealousy…LOL

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Larry,

It will take more than Wonka's insults to run me off.

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Larry,

I love it. That's a great reason. People jump on me because I'm a hobby giant too. I love it.

Peter C.