List of known Red HINDU's....can you add any new ones ?

[cfc1909]

I will try and tell this the best I can.

In the late 90s there was a Donovan Drum that was a part of a group of 10 tough backed 206s that was auctioned by one of the larger auction houses of that time. Later these cards appeared on ebay except for the Donovan. The Donovan never showed up.

Later the Cobb Drum in question was proven rebacked by the scan that was kept of the Donovan. The Cobb Drum had the identical back as the Donovan Drum. Not 100% sure what happened next but I am 100% sure that Donovans back is on Cobb.

This was when the rebacking was brought to light in the hobby. It had been going on for some time and still does.



Robert- first let me say Cobb bat on and green is a possible combo and should exist with Hindu brown.

that said-
I am on the fence with the Cobb Hindu-I have only seen one example each of the browns and only one red also.

I would really like to own one but I have never seen one for sale or auctioned except the red in REA. I would think as a collecting group we should be able to come up with more than one brown Hindu Cobb. Hindu brown is not that difficult and that makes me think we should be able to account for more than one example each.
I can buy one red because they are so much tougher but not just one brown. But who knows maybe a hobby pioneer hoarded these up before us newbies came along

[tedzan]

Regarding your ?'s in post #89......
" We should discuss whether or not we've seen more than one example of a lot of these combinations.

In this thread, Jeff posted a Chase/Red Hindu. I've never seen another.

My friend has a Cy Young glove/red hindu and I don't believe I've seen another.

And your Kleinow? Have you seen another?

There might be others out there, but not sure.

Why haven't we speculated on whether or not the above cards are rebacked?

If any of the Cobbs would break this new found pattern of not being found with a hindu back, it would
obviously be the Red portrait "superprint." "

Responses......

(1) Jeff's, REA, and mine (a beater) = 3 - Blue Chase / Red HINDU cards

(2) Your friend's and a beater that I know of = 2 - CYoung / Red HINDU cards

(3) Wonka's, REA, and a possible 3rd = 3 - Kleinow / Red HINDU cards

(4) the 3 "beater" cards noted here date back to the early 1980's (trust me, these were NOT re-backed
cards).

(5) The 6 super-prints are pretty consistent regarding the backs they were printed with. Red HINDU is
the exception....it has only been confirmed with Chance, Chase, & Evers. One fact is certain, all 6 are
AMERICAN BEAUTY 460 and UZIT No-Prints.

Rob....my question to you....you seem to be "fighting" this rash of re-backing that occurred approx. 10
years ago. Can you please explain why ?

Incidently, I have never seen this done with Caramel cards, is that perhaps, why you are skeptical of
what we are telling you regarding T206's ? ?

Finally, if you haven't read my thread on the BL 460 / Red HINDU connection, here is the link to it....

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...broad+leaf+460

Regards,

TED Z

[caramelcard]

Hi Ted,

First off, my user name on this board happens to be "caramelcard" and I do enjoy them, but not everything I say has a hidden "caramel card" agenda. I'm not gonna give my tobacco card resume, but I collect those too!

You present a lot (probably more than most on the board) of good theories and questions, but that's what they are. You are not presenting facts every time you state something on this board. Sometimes maybe, but not all the time, so please allow folks to ask questions and present theories that may be contrary to yours and the collective can do what they want with both sides.

You and I end up on opposite sides of the argument a lot for some reason. Most of the time I agree with you. Even if I do it's something about the manner in which you present your theories that makes me want to disagree.

Since you responded to my post about many red hindu cards being one of a kind in such a matter of fact way, I'll do the same.

How do you know my friend's Cy Young glove/red hindu is not the same "beater" that you know of?

You can't always take a little tidbit of your memory and present it as fact because you don't know where these cards are now and how many times you've counted the same card. You don't know how many reports to you from others are inaccurate and how many people have stretched the truth.

My point was that if we only know of one front/back example we don't have to discount it especially if it fits within the normal parameters of T206 back patterns which the red portrait does.

If it's something ridiculous like a green portrait red hindu then by all means let's discount it.

If the red portrait/red hindu example shows some possible signs of rebacking then let's talk about it.

You saying that it's rebacked because you and your buddies think so is not really a great explanation.

I'm not fighting the fact that there was a group of rebacked cards years ago. I remember some of them. I was identifying some differences between those rebacked cards and the Cobb/red portrait.

Those differences...again...were:

1. The Green Cobb/red hindu reback was a messy job and couldn't have been the same person that might have rebacked the red cobb/red hindu.

2. The matty/red hindu, bat on/cb, etc. are not possible whereas the red cobb/red hindu and bat on/brown hindu are.

For the record, I know of a Walter Johnson portrait brown hindu reback that is a fairly obvious job as well.

Now, all this being said. I'm with you on this. I've never been able to confirm (except the two on this board) any T206 Cobb with a hindu back it seems that it COULD BE some kind of anomaly.

Rob

[JP]

Rob, very eloquent and well thought out post. It was a pleasure reading such a thoughtfully constructed summary...rare on these boards!

[tedzan]

Rob

re..Cobb/red Hindu

There are a few us on this forum that are privy to the background scenario regarding this card. I am not at liberty
to reveal the facts. However, this scenario casts significant doubt as to the authenticity of this card.

re..Chase and CYoung red Hindu "beaters"

I am sure that your friend's CYoung/red Hindu is not the same "beater" that I know of, since this Young resides in
the collection of a long-time friend of mine, who acquired his Young in the early 1980's. He also has my Chase, as
I traded it to him a year ago. He specializes in rare T206 backs....he currently has about a dozen red Hindu's.

If you perceive that my responses here appear to be somewhat contentious, then I am really sorry about that. I do
not mean to be. I guess, I've become somewhat jaded in having to repeatedly explain my stand on this Cobb (hav-
ing known the aforementioned background scenario regarding this Cobb).

Really, there is no reason why we cannot have a reasonable dialogue on this subject. I can appreciate the fact that,
since this card is graded, it causes some to question my stand on it. However, as we've already noted, there have
been some graded cards that have been proven fakes....and, fortunately these cases are far and few between.


TED Z

[E93]

I never did post my example.

[wonkaticket]

Super card Jim!

[tedzan]

Nice Wheat/red HINDU....thanks for posting it, Jim. Wheat is one of my favorite T206's.


Another T206 challenge, pairing same players with their Brown and Red HINDU cards.






Hey guys, let's see some more red HINDU cards. So far, only 9 (of 40) are on display here.


TED Z

[Brian Weisner]

Hi JimB,
Nice Wheat.... I have one in a PSA 4 holder too... But your card is nicer.
Hi Ted,
I know of 2 very nice Young/Red Hindu's, 1 sold in EX-MT condition(1998 Oser auction) and the other was sold as trimmed in a group of Red Hindu's several years ago.

Be well Brian

[hank_jp]

I bought the Young Red Hindu quite a few years ago that Brian referred to as part of an auction lot. I later sold it at one of the Philly Shows after SGC encapsulated it as "Authentic" trimmed.
Those were the days that trimmed cards had very little respect and Red Hindus were not yet atmospherically priced.
In every other respect it was a real beauty and is the kind of card I would be proud to have in the raw T206 set I'm putting together with my my son.
If the new owner ever tires of it please let me know.

Hank

[tedzan]

That accounts for 4 red HINDU's of CYoung. And, there is at least 3 known Johnson's.

Hey guys, consider this....how many red HINDU cards were destroyed by those nasty dudes,
who were re-backing T206's these past 12 years ? ?

Best regards ole buddy,

TED Z

[cfc1909]

a couple more HOF red Hindus

RedHindu.jpg

RedHindub.jpg

[JP]

Has anyone ever seen a Red Hindu O'leary (hands on knees)? I need one for a back set I'm working on, and have yet to see one...yet they must exist???

[Brian Weisner]

Two more for Ted and Jim,







Be well Brian

[cfc1909]

very nice B



JimB-nice Wheat-you were holding out on us-just kidding...

[teetwoohsix]

I am still trying to come up with a logical explanation as to why a relatively small amount of Hindu backs are printed in the red ink.

Could the Red Hindu's have been sort of a promotional deal,or a card meant to be included as a "special offer",thus resorting in a very limited print run?

One thing I wondered about-has anyone discovered any evidence as to which was printed first-Brown Hindu,or Red Hindu?

One of the only other theories that seem to make a little sense is that the Red Hindus were sort of a mistake.Or a test run of some sort.It would be neat to solve this mystery.

Sincerely,Clayton

[tedzan]

Clayton

No real mystery regarding the the HINDU cards. The Brown HINDU's were printed and issued in the Summer of
1909 along with the 1st (150) series of T206's.
The Red HINDU's were printed and issued in late 1910 (early 1911) with the last (460) series of T206's. It has
become apparent that the Red HINDU's were printed simultaneously with the BROAD LEAF 460 cards.

The HINDU brand wasn't as popular as the PIEDMONT, SOVEREIGN & SWEET CAPORAL brands; thus, there are
less HINDU cards to be found. Furthermore, it is fair to conclude that the Red HINDU cards were short-printed,
since they were printed at the tail end of the T206 press runs. This certainly would account for their scarcity.

Why American Litho. used RED ink to print the last series of HINDU's remains a curiosity.


TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Ted-

Just a guess...since the BL460 and Red Hindu's were printed simultaneously maybe ALC switched the Hindu back color from brown to red to contrast the Broad Leaf back color.

[teetwoohsix]

Thanks TedZ,for setting me straight on when these were printed.I appreciate the help,and that clears up something that was blocking my focus.

Sincerely,Clayton

[Chicago206]

What is your best guess estimate as to the total number of surviving Red Hindus? Are we talking sub 1,000, or more like sub 5,000?

[ullmandds]

1000 surviving red hindus? are you kidding? I'd guess there are less than 1/2 that...probably even less than that.

[GoldenAge50s]

Why American Litho. used RED ink to print the last series of HINDU's remains a curiosity.

It just may be something as simple as to distinguish the most common beginning T206's (1909) from the scarcer, end of the run T206's (1911)

[tedzan]

Fred Y

That's the best explanation for the Red ink printing that I've heard so far.

Best regards,

TED Z

[Abravefan11]

Ted,

Has a color comparison been done with the time line of when T206 backs were printed?

Does the Sovereign change in green coincide with an AB printing for example?

Just curious as this may have something to do with the Hindu change from brown to red as I mentioned before with them being printed the same time as the Broad Leaf 460.

[FUBAR]

it could be something simple like they ran out of brown.... because it probably really didn't matter to them, it was after all, just a card..

a different green could be simply a different batch.


I really think people are over analyzing things. Remember , the card is just a throw in to a 5 cent pack of smokes, i don't imagine they were overly critical of the exact ink color. They probably used what they had.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by FUBAR

it could be something simple like they ran out of brown.... because it probably really didn't matter to them, it was after all, just a card..

a different green could be simply a different batch.

Jim -

I appreciate what you're saying but ALC wasn't a small print house where running out of ink would be no big deal.

Even if it didn't matter to them they were working for ATC and with such a huge customer they certainly cared about what they were doing and the why down to the correct factory designation.

Along with the Hindu red the Sovereign greens were changed for a reason, we just haven't figured out why yet.

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by Abravefan11

Jim -

I appreciate what you're saying but ALC wasn't a small print house where running out of ink would be no big deal.

Even if it didn't matter to them they were working for ATC and with such a huge customer they certainly cared about what they were doing and the why down to the correct factory designation.

Along with the Hindu red the Sovereign greens were changed for a reason, we just haven't figured out why yet.

I wonder if it's as simple as their advertising for the Hindu brand went to more reddish colors? Just a guess. As for Sovereign green, I used to work in a textile plant and a good friend of mine was the color man. Sometimes as minor a thing as a drop or two of one color in a mix being eliminated would lead to variations. It may have been as simple as a different color man doing the mixes.

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by toppcat

It may have been as simple as a different color man doing the mixes.

It could be that simple but I would think we would see color variations in other backs given the amount of cards printed and number of times ALC workers would have had to mix the inks.

However the Sovereign color change was uniform across a print run from what I understand. To many known cards to be just a mistake or variance.

[teetwoohsix]

You all are making some great points!!Tim,I was also wondering about the Sovereign forest green/apple green mystery change while I was thinking about the Red Hindu back-it's hard to determine if this was a mistake,a well planned out marketing strategy,simply running out of a certain color,possibly an off mix,or done intentionally to separate the first series Brown Hindu from the latter series Hindu(Red).I think every possibility is worth exploring!!

Sincerely,Clayton

Edit to add-Tim,you may be on to something with the color comparison.I have no idea if it's been done already,but sounds like a good comparison to do,and could possibly bring us closer to understanding more about this.

[Abravefan11]

Last note and I'll let the experts take over:

Ted found that the "Apple Green" Sovereign backs were exclusive to the 350/460 print run. Here's the link to the thread.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...overeign+apple

During this same print run ALC dropped the frame from the American Beauty backs.

Are the two related, I don't know.

These things lead me to believe that ALC was very conscious of what they were doing in regards to the backs including the colors they used to print them. After all to ATC the back was more important than the front.

[cfc1909]

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=112571


post #27 tells of the apple green Sovereign-Ted also figured out the No Print


red Hindus are a bit different than Sovereign apple green because apple greens are 350-460 players only and red Hindu can be 350-460 and 460 only

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by toppcat

Sometimes as minor a thing as a drop or two of one color in a mix being eliminated would lead to variations. It may have been as simple as a different color man doing the mixes.

LOL! For close to 30 years my wife has laughed at me that I lived my life as a box of Crayola 8 Crayons (What do you mean there's more than one blue?) while she, and my 16 year old daughter work off the Pantone Color Chart, with infinite choices.

I still do NOT understand how we can be ready to paint a room, she can look at the yellow paint, and say "That's got too much red in it!"

[Abravefan11]

Originally Posted by cfc1909

red Hindus are a bit different than Sovereign apple green because apple greens are 350-460 players only and red Hindu can be 350-460 and 460 only

Jim - Sometimes I'm guilty after 3 or 4 posts of seeming to stray from my original thought. Here' what I was trying to say in a nutshell.

ALC made deliberate changes to the backs of some cards during specific print runs. I mentioned the "Apple Green" Sovereigns as an example of a definitive switch in ink color and not just an anomaly. Same with the red Hindu's, that was a change made for a reason.

The answer could lie in the groups of cards that were printed at the same time.

If we know through Ted's research that the Red Hindu's were printed with the Broad Leaf 460's could the brown back of the Broad Leaf have caused ALC to make the switch to Red for the Hindu's to make the backs have greater contrast?

[cfc1909]

You are all good, and we need more members like you. I just wanted to add facts and not let my partners head get too big...

I will soon have to bring my dumptruck to the shows so I can carry Teds head...

Together in the past year or two, we have made great strides on the 206 set and Ted deserves a great portion of that credit. However, you do as well and so do several other members that don't post often but put a great amount of effort in. This is great for the forum and the collecting community.

[tedzan]

" I will soon have to bring my dumptruck to the shows so I can carry Teds head "


A better idea is to bring your dumptruck to the show full of vintage BB cards that we can
sell at 1990's (or even 1980's) prices.

Then, we'll add some excitement to the Philly show and perhaps revive it

21st Century prices for vintage BB cards have become exceedingly "out of sight, man" ! !

Let's bring back the greatness of the WILLOW GROVE days


TED Z

[cfc1909]

Hey Buddy

I would like to revive the Philly show because I am really starting to have fun at this but only way I could fill my dumptruck with cards is to stop by your house...

[White Borders]

If you'ld bring a dumptruck full of fresh fish to a show, I'd be tempted to make a trip eastward for 'em

[cfc1909]

Craig-that may be possible right now-Marylands Eastern Shore is on fire --me and Jim jr caught bass,crappie,blue gill,pickeral and some catfish last Saturday. We just took pictures and let them go.
Rockfish season started too and will not be letting them go-I will try and post some pics when I get them developed.

[tedzan]

Whether Jim is hauling Stone, Fish, or BB cards in his truck to the show....go East young man.
After all, how many BB card shows are there out in Kansas ?

Is the Overland Park Show still an event ? ....or, am I dating myself ? ?

It would be really nice to see you.


TED Z

[White Borders]

there's not much in the way of card shows in the Midwest that i'm aware of ... the last time i went to the Overland Park show Mickey Mantle was signing autographs, so obviously i haven't been to it in ages! I'd guess some of the KC folks like Brian McQ could tell us what it's like these days. Two or three years ago Levi (707) said he was going to set up at it and asked if i was going to make the drive up, but i had too much going on that weekend.

maybe next year the wife and i can take a vacation to Philly and i can just coincidentally arrange it for when there is a big show

[tedzan]

Last call for additional Red HINDU cards.....we know of only 40 - T206's. Please show or tell us of your
Red HINDU cards


The Red HINDU cards were printed and issued in the Winter of 1910 (and very early 1911). It appears
that the 350/460 series Red HINDU cards were printed as "matched pairs" with the BROAD LEAF 460
cards, since these two scarce T206 backs have in common identical fronts.

Did you know that the Red HINDU's were virtually unknown when Bill Heitman published his book, "The
Monster" in 1980 ? Bill noted that only 6 cards were known. They are indeed very rare.....in my opinion,
almost as rare as BROAD LEAF 460 cards.

So let us see your Red HINDU's. All posts are welcome regarding Red HINDU cards....and, certainly any
questions that you may have.


Example of 350/460 series card with the Red HINDU back......




28 confirmed Red HINDU cards in the 350/460 series (of a possible 56)

Baker
Bender (no trees)
M. Brown (Chicago)
Chance (portrait-yellow)
Chase (blue)
Chase (dark cap)
Davis (A's)
Donlin (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Downey (bat)
Larry Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Evers (Chicago-yellow sky)
Griffith (bat)
Johnson (pitching)
Joss (pitching)
Kleinow (Boston)
Konetchy (glove low)
Magee (bat)
O'Leary (hands at knees)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
Snodgrass (fielding)
Stahl (glove)
Street (fielding)
Sweeney (New York)
Willis (throwing)
CYoung (glove)


Example of 460-only series card with the Red HINDU back......




12 confirmed Red HINDU cards in the 460-only series (of a possible 46)


Crandall (cap)
Devore
Duffy
Ford
Gandil
Geyer
Hummell
McGraw (glove hip)
Pfeffer
Sheckard (glove)
Tannehill (Chicago)
Wheat

The 40 cards listed here are accurate as of 4/30/10....if Net54er's can confirm any new Red HINDU cards,
please post your input(s) or email me at......

tedzan11@comcat.net


Please no PM's

Thank you,

TED Z