Rip- kobe bryant

[mantleman]

Wtf just happened, I hope this isn't true! . Apparently KOBE BRYANT was killed in a helicopter crash in Calabasas.

[milkit1]

yeah the report so far seems to be coming from TMZ that 4 people including Kobe Bryant were killed. A few news outlets are sharing TMZ's report.

[rjackson44]

Omg its true im stunned

[wdwfan]

This is so very, very sad. I didn't know if anyone would post here since it's a vintage only site. But glad someone did. It's so incredibly sad.

[Santo10Fan]

His youngest was born in June, terrible news. I'm lucky to still have my father around, need to give him a call today.

[Yankees1964]

Sad day. Saw him first play in 1995 against my hometown high school in the state semi finals. Incredible talent even then. Godspeed Kobe.

[perezfan]

RIP Kobe...

You were amazing and inspirational.

[samosa4u]

OMG! I can't believe it!!

[Fuddjcal]

along with his daughter Gianna 13, heading to her basketball practice in Thousand Oaks. Thanks for the memories Kobe. OUCH!

[thetruthisoutthere]

RIP to Kobe and the other passengers.

Condolences to their families.

Not much you can do about this except grieve and pray, but what disgusts me are sellers that take advantage of this.

Below are screenshots of sellers of Kobe's forged/counterfeit "2000 Ovation" card.

This is truly disgusting.

Ebay seller Bc-jack has already sold 9 of these just in the past hour along with another seller of forged/counterfeit cards Ebay seller Daniecarchi_0.


bcjackKobe-3.jpg

bcjackKobe-4.jpg

[Shoeless Moe]

Yep, noticed several Buy It Now items with "Revisions" and when you click its the Price that is being revised.

Same thing though happened with Halladay and Jose Fernandez.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

Yep, noticed several Buy It Now items with "Revisions" and when you click its the Price that is being revised.

Same thing though happened with Halladay and Jose Fernandez.

The cards I posted above are the forged/counterfeit version of that card.

These are disgusting people.

[CMIZ5290]

It sure as Hell didn't take long for the vultures to circle.... The three best players I have ever seen that can score at will.... Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, and Pete Maravich....There you have it

[yanks12025]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

Yep, noticed several Buy It Now items with "Revisions" and when you click its the Price that is being revised.

Same thing though happened with Halladay and Jose Fernandez.

I was paying attention to the signed books.. One seller changed his 2 book listings from $190 to $750 to $1,000. One sold at $750 and another sold for $1,000. Then another one popped up for $1,000 and $1,500, so curious if he cancelled the $750 sale to make more profit.

Another seller had multiple books for sale and ended them. 10 minutes later relisted them with $750 prices.

I understand these people own these items and have every right to sell them. Just think its messed up to profit from someones death so quick when their body is still warm. That just seems wrong, at least give it a week or 2.

[Touch'EmAll]

Omg, can hardly believe it! Feel awful, Kobe and daughter and others.

[Exhibitman]

[Fred]

Sad, it looks like one of his daughters was also lost in the accident. I understand using a helicopter as a mode of transportation if you can afford it, but if what the news is saying about the destination (going from Calabasas to Thousand Oaks - about 15 miles by road), then I just don't get it. Why take a chopper if it's only going to save a very little bit of time. I get it if it was about 50 miles and you're Kobe Bryant (and you can afford it), but about 15 miles by road - why take the risk? Totally sad.

[h2oya311]

I don’t know this for a fact, but I would guess that driving in LA is more dangerous than flying a helicopter.

Also,15 miles can take a boatload of time in LA. But on a Sunday, perhaps not.

[Rich Klein]

1) I penned a column when Tyler Skaggs passed. I do realize the differences in their careers but many of the points are the same.

https://gogts.net/kleins-korner-how-...-in-the-hobby/

2) What a wonderful tribute (among many) in tonight's Knicks game:

https://twitter.com/nyknicks/status/...660416/video/1

Regards
Rich

[ullmandds]

Sooo Sad. RIP Kobe and family. Not many superstars are so likable as Kobe seemed to be.

[commishbob]

Former University of Houston baseballer John Altobelli was aboard along with his wife and daughter. His daughter played on the hoops team Kobe coached I believe.

[Kenny Cole]

It is really hard to process this. My niece used to play soccer against GG and Kobe was always there. Just a tragic, awful day. RIP Kobe, GG and the others involved in this tragedy, and prayers go out to and for the families. How terribly sad.

[oldjudge]

My wife and I saw Kobe many times at Sparks games, always with Gianna. They would have such big smiles like they couldn’t have been happier to be there and be together. Despite that, he was very generous with his time for fans who came by for pictures and just to say hello. I don’t recall ever seeing a star as big as Kobe (and there aren’t many) who was as nice as he was. If there is a heaven he will surely be there.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Fred

Sad, it looks like one of his daughters was also lost in the accident. I understand using a helicopter as a mode of transportation if you can afford it, but if what the news is saying about the destination (going from Calabasas to Thousand Oaks - about 15 miles by road), then I just don't get it. Why take a chopper if it's only going to save a very little bit of time. I get it if it was about 50 miles and you're Kobe Bryant (and you can afford it), but about 15 miles by road - why take the risk? Totally sad.

He lives in Newport Beach. It is about 90 miles to his Sports Academy. The helicopter crashed in Calabasas. He also has issues with riding in a car for long periods of time and has taken a helicopter to games for much of his career.

[SmokyBurgess]

Very tragic indeed. Prayers for his family.

Always reminded of this verse when events like this happen:

Hebrews 9:27

[PowderedH2O]

An absolute tragedy for all nine and their families.

I will disagree with those that criticize the raising of prices for Kobe signed material. When Baines made the HOF prices for Baines rookies went up. When Michael Jackson died, $2 Thriller LP's sold for $100. If you are a business person and have a Kobe related item to sell, now is when you will get your best price. It isn't like raising the price on water during a hurricane or life saving medicine. It is a sports collectible. I don't blame sellers for raising prices at all. Now, if you sold an item for $175 on Saturday then cancelled the order to make more money, then that is a deceitful business practice. But, to raise the price to what the market allows seems like a sound business strategy to me, distasteful as the timing may appear.

[GeoPoto]

Anybody recoiling in horror at the insensitivity of price increases effected in the wake of Kobe's tragedy remind me of the old spinster who called the LAPD to complain about the neighbors who were sunbathing nude. When the officers arrived and pointed out to the woman that the neighbors had a 20-foot fence surrounding their pool and it seemed hard to understand how the woman could see anything offensive, she quickly countered: "Oh no, if I go up in the attic and stand on a chair, I can see them quite clearly from the highest window."

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by PowderedH2O

An absolute tragedy for all nine and their families.

I will disagree with those that criticize the raising of prices for Kobe signed material. When Baines made the HOF prices for Baines rookies went up. When Michael Jackson died, $2 Thriller LP's sold for $100. If you are a business person and have a Kobe related item to sell, now is when you will get your best price. It isn't like raising the price on water during a hurricane or life saving medicine. It is a sports collectible. I don't blame sellers for raising prices at all. Now, if you sold an item for $175 on Saturday then cancelled the order to make more money, then that is a deceitful business practice. But, to raise the price to what the market allows seems like a sound business strategy to me, distasteful as the timing may appear.

right if an auction were held today on an item is a seller supposed to stop the sale because the sale price is much higher today versus in the past?

I brought this up on jose fernandez....and now again on Bryant.....there could be lawsuits brought against him...there were others on board..one a former coach of jeff mcneil...

[conor912]

Originally Posted by PowderedH2O

An absolute tragedy for all nine and their families.

I will disagree with those that criticize the raising of prices for Kobe signed material. When Baines made the HOF prices for Baines rookies went up. When Michael Jackson died, $2 Thriller LP's sold for $100. If you are a business person and have a Kobe related item to sell, now is when you will get your best price. It isn't like raising the price on water during a hurricane or life saving medicine. It is a sports collectible. I don't blame sellers for raising prices at all. Now, if you sold an item for $175 on Saturday then cancelled the order to make more money, then that is a deceitful business practice. But, to raise the price to what the market allows seems like a sound business strategy to me, distasteful as the timing may appear.

I tend to agree. That’s capitalism. The profiting isn’t hurting anyone. Go to eBay and search Kobe Bryant:sold items.....the list from the last 24 hours is virtually endless.

[PowderedH2O]

I bought a graded Panini signed card in September for $150. I thought it was high, but I thought it would be unattainable later in 2020 when he went into the Hall of Fame. I could sell it for over a thousand now. Not a chance. I loved watching that man hoop.

[steve B]

Interesting thing the Celtics and Pelicans did

https://www.boston.com/sports/boston...gIa_ltHRqaMXHk

[yanksfan09]

RIP, awful news for all families involved especially with the children.

Originally Posted by steve B

Interesting thing the Celtics and Pelicans did

https://www.boston.com/sports/boston...gIa_ltHRqaMXHk

LA Clippers and Orlando Magic did the same thing a half hour earlier only the Clippers took a 24 sec violation and the Magic took and 8 sec backcourt violation. He wore both numbers

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

right if an auction were held today on an item is a seller supposed to stop the sale because the sale price is much higher today versus in the past?

I brought this up on jose fernandez....and now again on Bryant.....there could be lawsuits brought against him...there were others on board..one a former coach of jeff mcneil...

There could be lawsuits against Bryant? Care to elaborate?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Eric72

There could be lawsuits against Bryant? Care to elaborate?

could be could be not but its an issue

if he was the owner of the helicopter in some capacity his estate could be liable for the actions of the pilot if the pilot was at fault for the accident for example..there are plenty of other ways as well ..

[GasHouseGang]

How about we change the direction this thread has taken, and make it more of a celebration of Kobe. Here are a few of his cards.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

It sure as Hell didn't take long for the vultures to circle.... The three best players I have ever seen that can score at will.... Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, and Pete Maravich....There you have it

Kevin, if you were to ask 100 current NBA fans who Pete Maravich was, how many of them do you think would even recognize his name? Beyond simple name recognition, how many would know what he did in the NBA, or how thoroughly he dominated in the NCAA?

One of the reasons I love Net54-one of many-is that there's a real knowledge of, and appreciation for the histories of the games behind the cards. Not everyone that collects vintage and pre-WWII baseball cards loves today's game. And, I can't say I'd blame them if they couldn't get into Major League Baseball as it exists in he year 2020, after multiple strikes, ridiculous player salaries, the scandals (steroids, sign stealing), etc. But these collectors can talk about the golden era at great length.

I'm somewhere in between. I still enjoy today's game quite a bit, but it doesn't resonate with me quite as much as it used to. I'm going to subscribe to MLB Extra Innings for the first time in four years, and see if I can't rediscover the passion for the modern game.

Regardless of the level of affinity our members feel for the games as they're played today, they know the past very well. I can come here and start talking about Maravich, Jerry West, or John Havlicek, and people are going to have rich memories of seeing these guys in person. When I go to a post by the NBA on Facebook, something about the current New York Knicks, for example, and the "die hard, lifelong Knicks fans" don't know who Willis Reed is, I want to shoot myself in the head. Earl "the Pearl" Monroe, Walt Frazier..."oh, I've heard of them."

It's as if the game, and the team didn't exist before Patrick Ewing. So many "fans" just dismiss any era that happened before they were born.

There are precious few places left where I can intelligently discuss the past. Net54 allows me to indulge my love of collectibles and sports history. Leon provides us with the virtual sports bar. It's all of you that make the conversation stimulating.

[the 'stache]

Regarding Kobe, he's simply one of the most dynamic players I've ever seen, and not just in basketball. I remember how good he was at such a young age. It was frightening, really. You saw glimpses of what he'd become even in that first year of 1996-'97. He wasn't playing a lot of minutes, but he did...things...that just made my jaw drop. And 17.6 points per 36 minutes at age 18 is impressive as heck. His explosiveness was absurd. He was so smooth. I think most of us that saw him from the start would say that he exceeded even our wildest expectations.

Remember back when Shaq left the Lakers, how so many chalked his Kobe's rings to Shaq's presence? He won two more without O'Neal. He was great in his own right, and that whole narrative seems downright silly now.

While I can't forget what he was accused of (and I won't talk about it here, as it's inappropriate), I think Kobe genuinely did a lot of good. A hell of a lot. I read about what he did to help the homeless in Los Angeles. The philanthropic foundation he set up with his wife Vanessa. I learned how Kobe would travel back and forth to China to help kids with their education, and encouraged those kids to learn the benefits of teamwork on the court as a metaphor for life. The Kobe Bryant China Fund, and his efforts to promote Chinese culture in America. By all accounts, he was a fantastic father. He mentored countless players coming into the league.

He used helicopters with great frequency as doing so allowed him to spend more time with his girls. That he and his daughter Gianna (and the seven others on board) died en route to one of her basketball games is just...let's just say the universe can sometimes be very cruel.

When he's inducted into the Basketball Hall of Fame, I don't think there will be a dry eye in the place, or among those watching from home, myself included.

[PowderedH2O]

Bill, ironic that you should post this today. I am a high school teacher. We just started the new semester less than a week ago, so I am just getting to know the students. In my 4th period class I ended up having a 15 minute discussion with two 16 year old boys that had completed their work. It was on basketball history. They knew all about Maravich, Wilt, Oscar, etc. I was very impressed. Now, do they know that next level of star? I have no idea. I have so many memories, like going to my first NBA game as a kid and watching Bob Love torch the New Orleans Jazz.

I went to Pete's camp as a kid and still have the camp photo with all of us signed by him. He would show us trick shots and it was insane. Just like Kobe's passing, I was just devastated when he died at 40 years old.

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

How about we change the direction this thread has taken, and make it more of a celebration of Kobe. Here are a few of his cards.

While Basketball is my favorite sport (MJ my favorite all time player), I never really got into Kobe. That said, MUCH respect, appreciation and props for the legendary player that he was and even more respect and props for the ability to transform into Kobe the business and family man!

So while I have no cards to post, I will re-post yours and join you in wanting to move this thread in a more positive direction.

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by PowderedH2O

I went to Pete's camp as a kid and still have the camp photo with all of us signed by him. He would show us trick shots and it was insane. Just like Kobe's passing, I was just devastated when he died at 40 years old.

Was this at the Kutsher's (Borsch Belt) resort in upstate New York?? Or were there other Pistol Pete camps? My brothers, friends and I went a couple of years in a row and my Dad was one of the (non-NBA player) instructors.

[MULLINS5]

Can't blame people for raising their prices when most are buying low to flip. Those are the worthless losers.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by PowderedH2O

Bill, ironic that you should post this today. I am a high school teacher. We just started the new semester less than a week ago, so I am just getting to know the students. In my 4th period class I ended up having a 15 minute discussion with two 16 year old boys that had completed their work. It was on basketball history. They knew all about Maravich, Wilt, Oscar, etc. I was very impressed. Now, do they know that next level of star? I have no idea. I have so many memories, like going to my first NBA game as a kid and watching Bob Love torch the New Orleans Jazz.

I went to Pete's camp as a kid and still have the camp photo with all of us signed by him. He would show us trick shots and it was insane. Just like Kobe's passing, I was just devastated when he died at 40 years old.

Color me pleasantly surprised about their knowledge. That's great to hear, and very encouraging.

I'm sitting here watching some Pistol Pete highlights on YouTube. He had remarkable court vision, didn't he? He just instinctively knew where everyone was, all the time. Some of his passes just made the guys on the other team look foolish, and these were the best in the world. It's as if the ball just did his bidding. Underhanded, full court pass? No problem. Behind the back pass....to himself, followed by a no look, between the legs pass? Pfft, you can't do that? And he had remarkable hang time. He could jump, and delay the ball release, so whoever was defending him had already committed. This one video I watched showed him at the All Star game making these crazy passes to Dr. J. My God, lol. I just wish his career hadn't been wasted on so many bad teams. He was traded to the Celtics for part of his final year. Of course, the year after he retires, Boston wins the NBA Championship.

My earliest NBA memories came at the old Mecca Arena in Milwaukee. The Bucks were real good, back then, but not Lew Alcindor and Oscar Robertson good. I was born about five months after the Bucks won the NBA Championship. I'm still waiting for our next one. I've never seen a parade down Wisconsin Avenue in Milwaukee. I hope the Bucks can do it this year.

I grew up watching Marques Johnson at first. He was a pretty good player, coming from John Wooden's UCLA dynasty. Then, it was Sidney Moncrief, Terry Cummings, Jack Sikma. Lots of talent on that team, and Don Nelson was our Head Coach. Between the 1979-'80 season, and the 1986-'87 season, the Bucks averaged 54 wins a season. It was our misfortune that the Bucks were in a stacked Eastern Conference. Back then, first it was Dr. J and the Sixers ending our seasons in the playoffs. Then, it was Larry Bird and the Celtics. And before long, "oh, look, here comes the Bulls with this kid from UNC named Jordan." It just never let up.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Regarding Kobe, he's simply one of the most dynamic players I've ever seen, and not just in basketball. I remember how good he was at such a young age. It was frightening, really. You saw glimpses of what he'd become even in that first year of 1996-'97. He wasn't playing a lot of minutes, but he did...things...that just made my jaw drop. And 17.6 points per 36 minutes at age 18 is impressive as heck. His explosiveness was absurd. He was so smooth. I think most of us that saw him from the start would say that he exceeded even our wildest expectations.

Remember back when Shaq left the Lakers, how so many chalked his Kobe's rings to Shaq's presence? He won two more without O'Neal. He was great in his own right, and that whole narrative seems downright silly now.

While I can't forget what he was accused of (and I won't talk about it here, as it's inappropriate), I think Kobe genuinely did a lot of good. A hell of a lot. I read about what he did to help the homeless in Los Angeles. The philanthropic foundation he set up with his wife Vanessa. I learned how Kobe would travel back and forth to China to help kids with their education, and encouraged those kids to learn the benefits of teamwork on the court as a metaphor for life. The Kobe Bryant China Fund, and his efforts to promote Chinese culture in America. By all accounts, he was a fantastic father. He mentored countless players coming into the league.

He used helicopters with great frequency as doing so allowed him to spend more time with his girls. That he and his daughter Gianna (and the seven others on board) died en route to one of her basketball games is just...let's just say the universe can sometimes be very cruel.

When he's inducted into the Basketball Hall of Fame, I don't think there will be a dry eye in the place, or among those watching from home, myself included.

I dont think you can can just gloss over what he was accused of in the context of everyone saying he was a great husband...and its a bit of a disservice to the victim that he apologized too especially in this Me too age..

however he did appear to take a lot of of positive steps and was on the way for bigger and better things... basketball wise people forget about the issue of high school to NBA..i think jermaine o'neal also came out that year as well....

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

I dont think you can can just gloss over what he was accused of in the context of everyone saying he was a great husband...and its a bit of a disservice to the victim that he apologized too especially in this Me too age..

however he did appear to take a lot of of positive steps and was on the way for bigger and better things... basketball wise people forget about the issue of high school to NBA..i think jermaine o'neal also came out that year as well....

Who was glossing over what he did? I certainly wasn't. I merely stated that I wasn't going to talk about it here. I don't believe in badmouthing the dead. Everybody knows what he was accused of. This isn't the time or place to drag it up.

And I didn't say he was a great husband. I said he was a great father. Others may have, but please don't include me with them.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by MULLINS5

Can't blame people for raising their prices when most are buying low to flip. Those are the worthless losers.

People who buy things low hoping to sell them high are "worthless losers?"

If you had a stock broker who advised you, and his recommendations helped give you a nice return, would you call him a "worthless loser" and fire him?

Or would you be happy when YOU buy low and sell high?

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Mark17

People who buy things low hoping to sell them high are "worthless losers?"

If you had a stock broker who advised you, and his recommendations helped give you a nice return, would you call him a "worthless loser" and fire him?

Or would you be happy when YOU buy low and sell high?

Good post, Mark. As a former stockbroker, I would hope not.

After someone like Bryant dies, it's only natural for fans to want a tangible piece their career (especially when they're athletes), be it a jersey he wore, or a card he autographed. That's because human beings are sentimental creatures. Demand goes up. The supply won't increase all that much, unless someone who didn't have their items for sale puts them on Ebay immediately after Bryant's death (darned opportunists!) So, given the increase demand, shouldn't the items available command a premium? You can buy now, and pay more, or, you can wait, and see what happens, knowing you might miss out on the very best items, altogether.

If a seller raises their item's price, and a buyer pays the price they ask, what's the problem? The seller has made a profit. The buyer has what they wanted, at a price they were willing to pay. Nobody held a gun to their head. They could have waited, no? And while we demonize the seller for raising the price-who's to say that the seller isn't also sentimental? Maybe they would have kept it if they could, and they're selling the item(s) to pay for something like their kid's medical bills, or helping a family member out. Don't be so quick to assume that a seller raising their price is doing so out of pure greed. I've helped friends out in a tight jam before, and one of the ways I did so was to sell a few cards. They never knew how I got the money, but I asked what I felt was a fair price, and got it. The money never went in my pocket.

This will sound cold, but it's true: Kobe won't be any less dead a month from now when prices will normalize some. In two months, I would expect the market to return closer to the mean, or average price. Three months, closer still, if not all the way back. You can still be "a part of Black Mamba's career", owning a fat, overpriced 1/1 shiny card with his sticker auto, and jock strap tag in two months, and likely pay less to acquire it. That's economics.

I'm a movie collector. I'm on disability, and have been for ten years, permanent disability for about the last seven. I build my film collection for two reasons: one, I love film, and my collection keeps me entertained while I'm in bed almost 24/7. Secondly, and equally important, because my plan is to write about film (and sports) for a living, as I try to get off disability, and pay my own way again. There's nothing worse than having to rely on the government to survive, even though I worked my nuts off, and paid into the system.

I have x amount of dollars to spend on my collection every month. I can pay $20 + tax for a movie when it comes out on blu-ray. Or, if I wait, I can get the same film for less in a few months. I know when all the sales are each year, for each major label (Warner Bros, Fox, MGM, Disney) and boutique label (Criterion, Kino Lorber, Twilight Time, Warner Archive, and in England, Eurkea, Arrow Films, etc). I have much of what I'm going to buy plotted out months in advance. Some of the films I buy have limited print runs, like Twilight Time, a boutique label that typically does just 3,000 copies on blu-ray. They keep their licensing fees down by doing a smaller run. Occasionally, when demand outpaces supply, they might negotiate a second print run. If I wait a while after release, I might get it at a lower price. If the demand is high, I might miss out on it completely, or, be forced to pay a scalper $100 for a film that sold for $30. Or, I can hope the film was released on blu-ray in another part of the world, and import it from them. That's capitalism in a nut shell. Everything has a cost, and it's driven by demand. I don't think seeking a profit on an item, be it on a Kobe card, or a film with a low print run, is wrong. Again, nobody is forcing the consumer to buy it. I could always get my film on DVD which has no advertised print run. The quality is lesser (480p vs 1080p), but you pay for quality. It's up to each person to determine what they want, and what they're willing to comfortably pay.

[Mark17]

Over the past year I've visited Bud Grant a few times to get some things signed. He's 92 years old, still as quick-witted as anyone I know, and he has a great sense of humor. Last time I was at his house, he was signing some of my Metropolitan Stadium seats. We were having a pleasant conversation as usual, and about halfway through he paused and said, "I suppose these will be worth more after I die."

I replied, "Yes. So.... how are you feeling?"

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Who was glossing over what he did? I certainly wasn't. I merely stated that I wasn't going to talk about it here. I don't believe in badmouthing the dead. Everybody knows what he was accused of. This isn't the time or place to drag it up.

And I didn't say he was a great husband. I said he was a great father. Others may have, but please don't include me with them.

Right, there are many in the media saying he was a great husband. I am not badmouthing , i am correcting the media version. If no one said anything, i wouldnt be bringing up any negative issues.

I do think however, being a great father when you are married and living together with your wife also involves being a good husband which is the example you are setting to your kids as father as well so they are not mutually exclusive..

[samosa4u]

I'm not surprised to see Pistol Pete's name being thrown around a lot now. Both he and Kobe were almost the same age when they passed; they were both amazing players who played as guards, and most importantly, they both loved helping others.

Now I'm not trying to take anything away from Kobe here, but he was lucky to have played for an organization that always wants to win.

What would have happened if the Pistol had played for the Lakers? Just think of a backcourt consisting of him and Jerry West - wow! And he would have been passing the ball to guys like Wilt Chamberlain and a young Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. Instead, he ended up on crappy teams and now you don't hear about him much.