Small Traditions LLC/SCANDAL UPDATE

[ullmandds]

I've never dealt with this guy directly to my knowledge...David Lawrence Thorn...Have you?


https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1345291

[Stonepony]

I’ve won 1 thing from one of his auctions... luckily it was a “ hand cut” card by designation anyway.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

They even tried to warn people with the company name...

EDIT: Reading the thread is so depressing. Just when you think you've come to grips with the situation it keeps getting worse.

[Tomi]

Originally Posted by Stonepony

I’ve won 1 thing from one of his auctions... luckily it was a “ hand cut” card by designation anyway.

Same here. At least you know it was trimmed but they're supposed to be. He had an Exhibits card that was a POP 1 Mantle that I wanted and the left side was just wavy. Had to pass. Such a shame what our hobby has come to. These people need to serve time for these crimes. PSA will eventually feel it when a deep pocket collector gets screwed and goes after them.

[toppcat]

Some indictments might slow things down.

[pokerplyr80]

I believe I spoke with him briefly once after winning an auction and paying before updating my shipping address. Nothing related to these accusations. He did make the change and shipped the card out quickly. I no longer own the card.

[Johnny630]

PSA is Teflon...they will never be held accountable or liable they only offer OPINIONS

[conor912]

Wow. Trimming Lionel Carter cards? Nothing’s sacred anymore.

[BeanTown]

I hope he pays out the few consignors he had. A buddy of mine passed away and the person handling his affairs opted to go with Dave at Small Traditions to sell his collection. The proceeds are supposed to go to his only child his surviving Daughter. I didnt like the way they auctioned off most his stuff as they made up huge wholesale lots and gave a brief description along with a picture or two.

I heard Small Traditions was going to grade a lot of cards, but then I see many big lots were not graded and all raw. Wouldn't surprise me, if the winner(s) of some of these lots all knew most cards were mint and ripe for grading. A lot of his collection he obtained in the 90s and early 2000s. My buddy didnt like grading, as he was an excellent grader, without having someone else's opinion.

I hope everything works out where his Daughter and other consignors are paid.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by BeanTown

I hope he pays out the few consignors he had. A buddy of mine passed away and the person handling his affairs opted to go with Dave at Small Traditions to sell his collection. The proceeds are supposed to go to his only child his surviving Daughter. I didnt like the way they auctioned off most his stuff as they made up huge wholesale lots and gave a brief description along with a picture or two.

I heard Small Traditions was going to grade a lot of cards, but then I see many big lots were not graded and all raw. Wouldn't surprise me, if the winner(s) of some of these lots all knew most cards were mint and ripe for grading. What a dis service to my friend and his Daughter. A lot of his collection he obtained in the 90s and early 2000s. My buddy didnt like grading, as he was an excellent grader, without having someone else's opinion.

I hope everything works out where his Daughter and other consignors are paid.

I hate to say it, but when an auction does that they are usually going to buy the lot themselves and then list it properly. Mastro was known for this.

[h2oya311]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

I hate to say it, but when an auction does that they are usually going to buy the lot themselves and then list it properly. Mastro was known for this.

Oof. Didn’t think of that but that makes sense! Yikes!

Small Traditions is the AH that we all chewed out a few months ago (and a few years ago) about their email that suggested they get a chance to talk to PSA graders to review the grades they felt were unwarranted. I remember that thread getting revived a few months ago. I’m not sure how many actual consignments Small Traditions actually get given the number of items purchased by David, trimmed, and then auctioned off via his AH. What a shame.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Yeah I have one guy who helps me as a subcontractor. He isn't allowed to bid on lots he works on. I don't ever bid on a lot I'm selling.

[h2oya311]

Here's the thread I referenced before:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ght=traditions

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

They even tried to warn people with the company name...

EDIT: Reading the thread is so depressing. Just when you think you've come to grips with the situation it keeps getting worse.

it's actually right on time. There are 25-100 of these guys. We are only on #5. They will all get exposed as will PSA and the billion dollar fraud is right on schedule. Let's POP!

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

PSA is Teflon...they will never be held accountable or liable they only offer OPINIONS

We can HOPE! Just like I hope the Easter Bunny comes in April

[Leon]

Something I said back then makes as much sense today..

Sometimes when ya' sit back and think about it, resubmitting in a holder shouldn't be allowed. If you want to resubmit you have to crack it and send it in. And all submissions would truly be anonymous to the graders. Whatever it gets it gets. That would seem more arms length than submitting in a holder and not being able to go down in grade or arguing, especially in person, for a better one (admittedly I have done that and rarely succeeded . )

.

[swarmee]

It's amazing to see how many trimmed Exhibits and postcards are going through Small Traditions, then compare it to the grades that the PACK-PULLED Exhibit cards submitted through Vintage Breaks that mainly get EX-MT 6s straight from cello packs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-SwEMvt7fw

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by swarmee

It's amazing to see how many trimmed Exhibits and postcards are going through Small Traditions, then compare it to the grades that the PACK-PULLED Exhibit cards submitted through Vintage Breaks that mainly get EX-MT 6s straight from cello packs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-SwEMvt7fw

Instead of using the word "amazing" to describe it, I believe that "depressing", "corrupt", "fixed", "rigged", "pre-arranged" or "agreed upon" would have been more descriptive words for what's going on.

There's nothing amazing about it any more. These grading discrepancies have become predictable and expected.

But keep right on submitting, people, as you never know when that miraculous 10 might "pop" for little old you!

[BigBeerGut]

PSA is not in on the scandal.
The people trim the card and PSA just grades it.
You guys really make me laugh!

[Johnny630]

PSA is TEFLON WILL NEVER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR RENDERING THEIR OPINION
MONEY TALKS AND BULL SHIT WALKS

Sure It’s rigged always has always will be EVERYONE KNOWS THIS ITS ALL PRICED IN ......sometimes you just have to go your own way....the time to sell is now

[Gradedcardman]

Originally Posted by BigBeerGut

PSA is not in on the scandal.
The people trim the card and PSA just grades it.
You guys really make me laugh!

If it measures correctly then they ALL grade them. Unless they hire forensic scientists i'm sure it will remain this way. As the last post said, if you don't like it sell and collect stamps or coins, no fraud in those hobbies.

[iowadoc77]

Originally Posted by BigBeerGut

PSA is not in on the scandal.
The people trim the card and PSA just grades it.
You guys really make me laugh!

This is a bold claim. Evidence?

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by iowadoc77

This is a bold claim. Evidence?

No lawsuits

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Gradedcardman

If it measures correctly then they ALL grade them. Unless they hire forensic scientists i'm sure it will remain this way. As the last post said, if you don't like it sell and collect stamps or coins, no fraud in those hobbies.

Many of these cards DON'T MEASURE CORRECTLY. Check all the amounts trimmed off the Exhibits and the postcards. Just having an example in house or the proper measurement of these cards in their database (especially since they've already graded these EXACT CARDS untrimmed) would have returned them all to David Thorne as AUTH ALTERED.
PSA is incompetent and until this year, hasn't claimed they've ever blocked a submitter for submitting vast amounts of alterations*. Knowingly accepting submissions from Gary Moser for 15 YEARS after knowing he submits trimmed cards makes them LIABLE. If you don't think PSA isn't in on the fraud, you aren't reading enough of the threads.

*To my knowledge. I would love to see evidence that they've blocked card alterers in the past. Would love to see the list of all the people blocked for fraud purposes. I have been blocked for complaining about their sorry POS company online. There's probably more people on my list than those that are actively defrauding collectors. It's all part of the cover up, right? I would love to see their block list and the reasons each person was blocked; at least the "NEVER GET CHEATED" company would warn all of us about fraudsters, right?

[iowadoc77]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

No lawsuits

Great point... for now.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Many of these cards DON'T MEASURE CORRECTLY. Check all the amounts trimmed off the Exhibits and the postcards. Just having an example in house or the proper measurement of these cards in their database (especially since they've already graded these EXACT CARDS untrimmed) would have returned them all to David Thorne as AUTH ALTERED.
PSA is incompetent and until this year, hasn't claimed they've ever blocked a submitter for submitting vast amounts of alterations*. Knowingly accepting submissions from Gary Moser for 15 YEARS after knowing he submits trimmed cards makes them LIABLE. If you don't think PSA isn't in on the fraud, you aren't reading enough of the threads.

*To my knowledge. I would love to see evidence that they've blocked card alterers in the past. Would love to see the list of all the people blocked for fraud purposes. I have been blocked for complaining about their sorry POS company online. There's probably more people on my list than those that are actively defrauding collectors. It's all part of the cover up, right? I would love to see their block list and the reasons each person was blocked; at least the "NEVER GET CHEATED" company would warn all of us about fraudsters, right?

so true, so true. That is one fraudulent company that PSA. We have never seen this type of ineptitude and lack of integrity in any company in our lifetimes. The people running that company are pure Schmucks and cheater effers with zero integrity, just like the Astros. This is a Billion Dollar Fraud, like it or not.

[ejharrington]

If I’m a shareholder or on Board of Directors, I would be working to replace the CEO ASAP.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Gradedcardman

If it measures correctly then they ALL grade them. Unless they hire forensic scientists i'm sure it will remain this way. As the last post said, if you don't like it sell and collect stamps or coins, no fraud in those hobbies.

Emphasis mine...

No, no fraud in either...
Only in some fantasyland. Both have had constant frauds going back well over a century. If I looked hard enough I could probably find a coin fraud from the middle ages.
Or not so long. Jean Cavino and Alessandro Bassiano were forging ancient coins and selling them as real in 1540.
More here, Assuming it takes you to the right page (404 onward)
https://books.google.com/books?id=jV...0fraud&f=false

[BigBeerGut]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

so true, so true. That is one fraudulent company that PSA. We have never seen this type of ineptitude and lack of integrity in any company in our lifetimes. The people running that company are pure Schmucks and cheater effers with zero integrity, just like the Astros. This is a Billion Dollar Fraud, like it or not.

PSA is NOT in on the scam you sound silly. What would be in it for them?

Same reason a casino does not need to fix there games it is already fixed why risk anything?

mJD

[Exhibitman]

I'd almost prefer it was some sort of fraud ring inside PSA. Overwhelming incompetence is not a reassuring substitute.

[swarmee]

Chris Collins (Congressman about to serve jail time) has had some of his Mantle cards exposed in this one. I'm am cataloguing them over at Blowout. One of our board members bought a trimmed matchbook from David Thorn.

And Peter Spaeth seems to be concerned about the fake provenance being given by Thorn to make it look like these cards came from some advanced collection rather than being purchased by the auctionhouse and submitted through PSA in order to falsely put the card at arm's length.

If you are appalled at this fraud, the website to submit a complaint to the Colorado Atty General is around page 25.

[Johnny630]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...345291&page=26


WTH!!! PSA you’re a complete fraud

Look The before And After of the last Yankees Exhibit Card. The guy siting on the right look at his sleeve on the 4 then the 8.5 he cut his arm/sleeve way off and PSA misses this ?? yogi too on the left sitting cut his knee off wtf OH BULL S they missed this....look at penciling of the corners on the top right corner. WOW unbelievable

This is sick they ought to be ashamed of themselves

[BeanTown]

This came off a different forum.

[philliesphan]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I'd almost prefer it was some sort of fraud ring inside PSA. Overwhelming incompetence is not a reassuring substitute.

THIS. Thank you Adam. For me, the past 15 years in the hobby is less and less graded, and more pre-war, more larger cards, and less chasing the Registry whore cards.

[mintacular]

Somebody might want to alert PSA to this thread (no I don't think PSA is "in on it") as Small Traditions sponsors one of their Sweepstakes

https://www.psacard.com/sweepstakes?...s_january_2020

[drcy]

Originally Posted by mintacular

Somebody might want to alert PSA to this thread (no I don't think PSA is "in on it") as Small Traditions sponsors one of their Sweepstakes

https://www.psacard.com/sweepstakes?...s_january_2020

There was a thread about it on the CU forum that went poof

[swarmee]

https://web.archive.org/web/20200119...-boda-exposure

Oh, PSA is well-aware of how their pants are down in this scandal. But feel free to bring it up to them and have your submission privileges removed... ;-)
They keep their message board like the Chinese version of Google.

Edit: And it's funny that they keep deleting posts. They should realize by now any juicy thread like that will be archived in the wayback machine to prove just how much they want to continue cheating their customers from knowing the truth.

[Republicaninmass]

Most people knew this guy was a huge Jeter Collector. It wasnt a surprise when every auction had a slew of jeter inserts etc. I thought it was common knowledge he was selling his own cards. Now the rest, certainly makes a fella think. Faking provenance, sound like the latest craze

[swarmee]

In case you missed Post #277 by auburn35, this is pretty damning.

Small Traditions, Better Business Bureau reviews are fairly interesting.
https://www.bbb.org/us/co/denver/pro...iews#366918759

Several positive reviews within days of each other (almost like customers were asked to do so), in March of 2019. Even Tim "Trim by Tim" Burridge makes an appearance but this was the most interesting "positive" comment.

Ronald S
03/17/2019
★★★★★
Excellent service, honest and straightforward. Dave did all the work getting my cards graded and sold and even did a few “repairs “ to get a higher grade and resubmitted some to get a better grade. I know he got me at least $700 extra in one case doing that. Highly recommend.

Response from Small Traditions LLC:
03/19/2019

Thanks so much, Ron. We really appreciate your honesty here as well as the opportunity to have worked with you and your collection. To be clear, any "repairs" we did consisted simply of removing wax from more than a few of your cards as well as unfolding some very damaged corners on some very low-grade cards. Doing that definitely helped the grades on several of those increase from the 1 or 2 range to 3s or 4s and maybe a few 3s and 4s up to 5s and 6s. I want to be very clear to distinguish this from "card doctoring," which consists of fraudulent things like cutting cards or recoloring them. I like to tell our customers that if a card has a booger on it, naturally you would flick it off before submitting it for grading, which is the case with wax when found on the fronts of cards. It was very common because most 50s and 60s era cards came out of wax packs, and it rubs off quite easily and leaves a nice shine. As for badly damaged corners, I like to say that if you had a Mickey Mantle rookie card that was folded in half, naturally you'd unfold it before submitting it for grading. This is essentially what sometimes happens to the corners of badly damaged or low-grade cards, when the corners sort of flip in or flop over. If it's bad enough or obvious enough, it helps to gently lay them flat again before submitting for grading. Again, thanks for your very specific and honest feedback here, and thanks to the BBB for the space here to respond.

The FBI should have an even easier case against David, as in his own words, he admits that it's fraudulent to cut and recolor cards.

[Johnny630]

It’s very sad but this is all priced in people know what they’re getting into now. Nothing is going to change
PSA WILL NEVER BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE/LIABILITY THEY ARE JUST RENDERING AN OPINION
PSA IS TEFLON

I see bigger numbers and larger profits from PSA card grading division this year.......they’re the best industry leading authority .........

They know to keep quiet this will pass as it always has. We have never seen third party grading more needed and stronger, we are the best number 1 trusted in the industry

Remember we are just a few malcontents on a couple of message boards.....that’s it.

"...we don't believe that there is anything of a material nature for our company to be concerned with." Joseph J. Orlando, CLCT earnings call.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Faking provenance, sound like the latest craze

What did we expect? How many threads over the last several months have had multiple posts touting the importance of provenance going forward?

The crux of this whole problem is collectors’ desperation to believe anything they have to in order to feel good about a piece. It’s like dating a former porn star and convincing yourself she’s only been with you. The human brain can quite easily convince itself of anything it wants to.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by conor912

What did we expect? How many threads over the last several months have had multiple posts touting the importance of provenance going forward?

The crux of this whole problem is collectors’ desperation to believe anything they have to in order to feel good about a piece. It’s like dating a former porn star and convincing yourself she’s only been with you. The human brain can quite easily convince itself of anything it wants to.

Totally agree Conor. It's not surprising that provenance would begin to be faked at this point.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by BigBeerGut

PSA is NOT in on the scam you sound silly. What would be in it for them?

Same reason a casino does not need to fix there games it is already fixed why risk anything?

mJD

I like Mike, but you are out of your skull if you can't see the scam that PSA has perpetuated on all of us. A Billion Dollar fraud my friend and you can quote me.

If you want to see the problem, look in the mirror, then do something about it like STOP feeding the effing scammers. That's all it takes to stop this is for morons to stop supporting it already. People are inherently stupid, especially baseball card collectors like us. We need to stop with all the "popping" and acting like a 3 year old child on Christmas morning. It's an ugly look, really.

Instead, collectors feed the scam by continuing to support them. Where in the hell do you see grown men get their heads handed to them and enjoy the financial butt plugging?

PSA management doesn't even want to address it with their customers. In what world are we living in where a company can bilk their customers in a billion dollar scam and other blithering idiots keep supporting them?...AND THEY DON'T address it? I am and have been dumbfounded on how people are letting it happen in all honesty.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

I like Mike, but you are out of your skull if you can't see the scam that PSA has perpetuated on all of us. A Billion Dollar fraud my friend and you can quote me.

If you want to see the problem, look in the mirror, then do something about it like STOP feeding the effing scammers. That's all it takes to stop this is for morons to stop supporting it already. People are inherently stupid, especially baseball card collectors like us. We need to stop with all the "popping" and acting like a 3 year old child on Christmas morning. It's an ugly look, really.

Instead, collectors feed the scam by continuing to support them. Where in the hell do you see grown men get their heads handed to them and enjoy the financial butt plugging?

PSA management doesn't even want to address it with their customers. In what world are we living in where a company can bilk their customers in a billion dollar scam and other blithering idiots keep supporting them?...AND THEY DON'T address it? I am and have been dumbfounded on how people are letting it happen in all honesty.

Maybe YOU yourself should find a new hobby. Since this one brings you such misery. My girlfriend likes glittering cups. That would be a good one for you.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Maybe YOU yourself should find a new hobby. Since this one brings you such misery. My girlfriend likes glittering cups. That would be a good one for you.

Then he'd have no audience

[RedsFan1941]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Maybe YOU yourself should find a new hobby. Since this one brings you such misery. My girlfriend likes glittering cups. That would be a good one for you.

says the guy who has announced a dozen times that he’s leaving the hobby

[perezfan]

You can still love the hobby, the cards and memorabilia that make it great.

But you can also hate what they’re doing to it. And is it better to be quietly cheated and defrauded? Or to be vocal, stop submitting, and take other actions that will negatively impact these criminals and corrupt entities that perpetuate this massive scam.

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by swarmee

In case you missed Post #277 by auburn35, this is pretty damning.

Without repeating the quote, his response is damage control all the way. He must have crapped when he saw this “positive” review.

There are boogers all over this.

[Rhotchkiss]

Originally Posted by mintacular

Somebody might want to alert PSA to this thread (no I don't think PSA is "in on it") as Small Traditions sponsors one of their Sweepstakes

https://www.psacard.com/sweepstakes?...s_january_2020

Fuck PSA

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

Maybe YOU yourself should find a new hobby. Since this one brings you such misery. My girlfriend likes glittering cups. That would be a good one for you.

lets just keep doing what you're doing Bobby by being that 3 year old kid at Christmas waiting for the pop. I'll consider collecting glittering cups now cause you have me on a tangent and you just keep being a doorknob and waiting for pops. Contributing to the billion dollar fraud.

X 15 guys (Minimum) for 15 years minimum. Add it up. That just from one imbecile. This guy Brent Mastro.

Here's how it'd done Bobby so (WATCH THIS)

https://youtu.be/8e1lwt7E29k


STOP WITH THE POP DOPEY