Another theaory on why High Number series are rare

[darkhorse9]

The usual explanation is production was lower since orders were down from stores that still had earlier series cards. Kids going back to school, football season coming yada, yada, yada

But thumbing through my binders one thing jumped out at me. It seems like all the superstar cards are in the lower series groups. They front loaded them to get kids interest right off the bat.

That could mean that kids already got the cards of the players they wanted so they had no interest in buying more packs just to get journeymen they never heard of, managers and rookies (Remember, few people cared about rookie cards back then). How often did a player - who was a superstar at the time - appear in a sixth or seventh series?

So it may very well have been a self-fulfilling prophesy by Topps to grab all the cash early and then move on from there.

[Elberson]

that’s a good one, I’m working on 61 Topps now but I’m always pissed spending 20-30 for a nobody common card lol

[deweyinthehall]

Well, with the exception of 1952, Mantle was never in high series I don't think. And just off the top of my head, neither were Mays, Koufax, Aaron....

[cesarcap]

How about the All Star cards in 60 and 61? Those should have been in demand after the seasons the M&M boys had? But when were the released? If it was after school started or after the World Series then the reduced demand makes sense to me.

[Tere1071]

Some years of high numbers are easier to find than others, but like amny other sets finding them centered can be frustrating. For example, I am assembling complete Topps sets for 1968 and 1969 and I have no problems finding high numbers for those years. I am also putting a 1967 Topps Baseball "set" together for numbers 1-533 because some of the numbers in that series are harder and more expensive to obtain; the same goes for the 1966 issue as well.

For those of us who complete sets that include high numbers, let's share which card series that include high numbers are easier or more difficult to complete.

Where I grew up in southeastern Los Angeles County we weren't aware of high numbers. I started collecting with greater frequency beginning in 1970 and the corner liquor store began carrying football around September where we made that switch and basketball followed around November. In 1974, that liquor store put out a box of high number packs from 1970 which we purchased, but we didn't have any knowledge of them being harder to get than others.

Phil aka Tere1071

Currently assembling lower grade Topps Baseball sets from 1967-1969

[NiceDocter]

Right off the bat I think of Brooks Robinson 1967 Topps and of course the Seaver rookie ( but that would have been speculative).

[tjisonline]

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

Well, with the exception of 1952, Mantle was never in high series I don't think. And just off the top of my head, neither were Mays, Koufax, Aaron....

Only 1 other high Mantle base card I can think of is his 1969 5th series . It was 500 in the 664-card set. 7 total series in that set. Most stars ended up in higher series near / at end of their careers. E.g. Clemente

[Kevvyg1026]

Certainly, in the early 60s, the high series' have more speculative cards (rookie stars, etc) but they do have all-star and MVP cards, which obviously display some superstars. And, by the 70s, some of the interest in the previous decade's superstars (Mays, Aaron, Gibson, Banks, Rose, Yaz) might have been fading (from a consumer interest standpoint) and turning to players like Bench, Munson, Garvey, Reggie Jax, etc. Certainly, as 1970 cards illustrate, the semi high and high series cards, can be populated with both fading stars and up and coming stars.

Moreover, from what I can tell by looking at ads in baseball magazines, many times these series were available in June or July from major card distributors.
So, my opinion is that Topps simply printed smaller quantities of these series, anticipating lower demand from retailers and consumers in mid-to-late summer.

[nolemmings]

I can't agree with the OP's premise. Frankly, it would almost seem a better strategy for Topps to hold back on a few of the superstars until the end just so kids would continue the chase. Also, set and team collectors, which I believe far outnumbered those who just wanted star players, would trudge on regardless.

FWIW, McCovey was frequently in the high-numbered or next to high numbered series.

[stkuhl]

1963 Clemente is a high number although at the time he was probably not considered as big a star as Mantle, Mays, Koufax, and Aaron. Like a previous poster mentioned, I'm working on complete sets, with 1962 my focus fight now. It's frustrating to pay $30-40 for a Minnesota Twins team high number card. I'm guessing lots of those got pitched even when kids were opening high number packs.

[JollyElm]

Definitely some merit in that theory, since you would assume that the earlier series cards were flying off of the shelves right from the get-go as the new baseball seasoned dawned, and the desire for cards waned as the summer progressed (except for the kids who really wanted to ultimately have a complete set), so it would've been beneficial to heavily stock the lower series with cards of the players who were universally considered to be big stars, to keep us plunking down our nickels for a couple of months. As a kid, I didn't want a single star card, I wanted as many doubles of the star card as I could get my hands on to eventually use in trades. Everyone around me did the same, amassing doubles of the big guys.

Too bad there isn't some kind of first hand knowledge/insights about how and why Topps positioned the players (number-wise) in the sets. That would be fascinating information.

[toppcat]

In the Fifties, I think there's at least two years where Topps wasn't setting out to issue a final series of cards before pulling the trigger: 1952 and 1958, with 1957 and 1959 also being possibilities.

We all know the story in 1952 (and I expect some player contracts with competitors that expired in June also had a hand) but in 1958, with baseball expanding and until Topps had Musial in the bag, I don't think that last series was necessarily a foregone conclusion when the set was originally designed, although I suspect that by the time the fourth series was being prepped Topps had enough market info to allow them to proceed. Excluding the AS cards, the player mix is just awful, full of unknowns and rookies, with a couple has-beens thrown in. There's some other reasons too, I think. Some more on that at my blog:

https://www.thetoppsarchives.com/201...ing-slots.html

1957 is strange one, with that tough semi-high series and 1959 could mirror the prior year but for 1952 and 1958 it sure seems like some extra thought went into the calculations.

[skil55voy]

I can't speak to any of the cards before 1962. I started collecting in 1962 and I nearly completed the set from packs. I was living in Detroit at the time. (I was missing 10 or so cards which I picked up years later on at shows) I had the green tints and alternate poses. (Wally Moon etc..) In 1963 I never saw any series cards after the 4th Series in stores. In 1964 nothing after the 5th series. I collected an entire set in 1965 with the 7th series showing up in the stores in the middle of August. In 1966 nothing after the 6th series. (Sent a dollar to Topps and bought 10 cards in the 7th Series ordering by number) In 1967 once we got past the 5th series, cards were hard to find. I had partial series 6th and 7th series cards. (Had a Seaver rookie but no Carew) In 1968 I finished the set in August as well as 1969. 70,71,72 much the same as the early 60's. (I sent away to Topps for the final series in 70 and 71.) That all being said......
The owner of the local market where I bought most of my packs explained that he only got what he got from the wholesaler. If the wholesaler didn't order he didn't get. If the wholesaler didn't sell all of cards to local stores he may not order any more if he got orders later in the summer he would send what he had. ( I remember opening packs in late August in 1966 and 1970 and getting 4th or 5th series cards. ) The wholesalers basically controlled distribution.

[steve B]

The place to look isn't at what the kids were buying - Retailer to consumer.
But at the wholesaler to retailer business.

Any retailer, and the corner store people have been pretty sharp forever, would have to believe they would sell through the last series. If not, they wouldn't order them,in favor of something else. And with a need to preorder, the wholesalers salesmen would have been pushing football or something else in late summer to early fall. Then maybe hockey in some areas.


That lasted into the late 70's. Star Wars cards were very popular. First the blue and red sets, then the green and yellow ones. And there I figured it ended.
Until a friend from the other end of town asked if I had any of the orange ones.... In our town of about 50,000, only one store had them, and they sold out pretty quickly. I got a few, but only managed a couple trips up there.
Meanwhile all the small stores near me still had both the green and yellow series. and had them for a long time.

[rats60]

I agree with the above. I think it was totally driven by distribution and sales. High series cards were printed in larger numbers when released earlier in the year. 1965 was my first year and we got lots of all series cards. In 1967 we didn't get 7th series but had a ton of 6th series. In 1968-69 we had 7th series in August. In 1970 I asked for cards for my mid-August birthday party and only got 4th series. I didn't find 5th series until September when a kid at school let me know they were in the vending machine at K-Mart and I was still hunting 7th series too.

I don't think player selection had anything to do with sales. We just wanted cards and there were still stars in each series. In the 60s, only 3 players brought a premium, Mantle, Mays and Koufax. If Topps was concerned about player selection, why were all 3 in the 1st series in 1966? Wouldn't they be concerned that later series wouldn't sell?

Then look at 1970. Aaron in the 5th series, Mays and Rose in the 6th and the two best players on the two best teams, Johnny Bench and Frank Robinson in the 7th series. Why didn't Topps print that last series heavy instead of short printing it?

[Zach Wheat]

This is more of an offshoot to the original posters point; however, in the late 60's and 70's Topps selected star players for cards that were numbered at 100, 200, 300 etc/. with minor stars numbered at the 50, 150, 250, 350 positions. Not sure when this practice started or ended, but I remember it occurring.

[waxman27]

I think that Topps held out some of the big stars of the day until the high series, specifically in 1970 and 1971.

I agree with the above post regarding Bench and Robinson in the 1970 Series 7.

The 1970 AL MVP Boog Powell was in the high series in 1971, card #700.

Was Ryan a star after the 1969 World Series? He is in the last series, but only #712 not #700.

[Rich Klein]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

I can't agree with the OP's premise. Frankly, it would almost seem a better strategy for Topps to hold back on a few of the superstars until the end just so kids would continue the chase. Also, set and team collectors, which I believe far outnumbered those who just wanted star players, would trudge on regardless.

FWIW, McCovey was frequently in the high-numbered or next to high numbered series.

Just as an FYI, Topps did try that exact strategy in 1970-71 especially with the semi-hi series each year. For some reason those two years are backloaded with many of the best players. And I'm not talking about someone like the 1970 Nolan Ryan who was not at that level then. I'd love to hear what our resident Topps historian, Dave Hornish has to say about why those years were issued like that.

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

Just as an FYI, Topps did try that exact strategy in 1970-71 especially with the semi-hi series each year. For some reason those two years are backloaded with many of the best players. And I'm not talking about someone like the 1970 Nolan Ryan who was not at that level then. I'd love to hear what our resident Topps historian, Dave Hornish has to say about why those years were issued like that.

There's no actual info as to why Topps put certain players where they did for those years (or most years) but I'd expect they smoothed out their national distribution a little after the problems that zenithed in 1967. Look at 1968 and (especially) 1969, those highs aren't really all that tough but the sets are shorter than the 1970-72 era's even with seven series. Star power in the final two series in both 1968 and 1969 is severely lacking.

But then it snowballed to tougher highs again in 1970 and then even with six series in 1971 and 1972 you're back to a traditional kind of high series those three years. Mix in the MBLPA extracting more money from Topps in the late Sixties and you can see that maybe salting in a steadier diet of stars would make sense to keep interest from flagging, and the semi's do indeed seem to have had more big names than the highs those three years, although the 1970 highs are pretty well-stocked.

I vividly recall everybody looking for the Bench card in 1970, especially after the AS card was issued. It sure seems like one or two big names held back for the highs was the plan. Here's some details...

1968 Semi's: Multi-player cards with Clemente, Mantle, Mays and the Robinson's appear. F. Robby's regular card is in here too. NOT BAD BUT THE MULTI-PLAYERS SAVE IT.

1968 High's: Jim Palmer is the sole "big" name and that's merely hindsight as he was hurt in '67 and missed all of '68. No multi-player cards either. WEAK.

1969 Semi's: Middling at best, just a couple of multi-player cards and no big names save Ted Williams as a manager on one of those. WEAK.

1969 High's: Fergie Jenkins (off two 20 win seasons) and Ted Williams are pretty much it. WEAK.

1970 Semi's: Frank Howard (big at the time), Cepeda, G. Perry, Cleon Jones (a big name that year), Rose, Mays, Banks. LOADED.

1970 High's: Kaline, Bench, F. Robinson. Ryan is merely hindsight. NOT BAD.

1971 Semi's: Banks, Yaz, Killebrew, Palmer (finally established), Mays, Cepeda, Brock, Clemente. LOADED.

1971 High's: Boog Powell (big at the time) and some gimmick cards. WEAK.

1972 Semi's: B. Robinson, Rose, Marichal, Kaline, P. Niekro LOADED.

1972 High's: Carew. WEAK.

[Gr8Beldini]

Originally Posted by toppcat

1971 Semi's: Banks, Yaz, Killebrew, Palmer (finally established), Mays, Cepeda, Brock, Clemente. LOADED.

71 Semi's also included HoF's Frank Robinson, Tony Perez, and Jim Bunning... not to mention Frank Howard who was a very big deal after what he did from '68-'70.

[Volod]

Originally Posted by steve B

The place to look isn't at what the kids were buying - Retailer to consumer.
But at the wholesaler to retailer business.

Any retailer, and the corner store people have been pretty sharp forever, would have to believe they would sell through the last series. If not, they wouldn't order them,in favor of something else. And with a need to preorder, the wholesalers salesmen would have been pushing football or something else in late summer to early fall. Then maybe hockey in some areas.

I dunno, Steve - My old man was a retailer in the 1960's and reasonably sharp, I suppose, and his corner store carried a large selection of cards, but the storeroom was relatively small. Since I worked there after school, I can recall many discussions he had with wholesalers about ordering stuff. The salesman would try to push new cards and my father would yell he had unopened boxes of earlier series that had to be returned because he couldn't move them. I recall him getting especially annoyed when the wholesaler once refused to extend a return credit because the merchandise was past its return date. I had to haul a couple of large cases of 1961 baseball cards out back to a dumpster because the storeroom needed more room. Painful memory now.

[Zach Wheat]

Originally Posted by Volod

....I had to haul a couple of large cases of 1961 baseball cards out back to a dumpster because the storeroom needed more room. Painful memory now.

What memories!

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Volod

I dunno, Steve - My old man was a retailer in the 1960's and reasonably sharp, I suppose, and his corner store carried a large selection of cards, but the storeroom was relatively small. Since I worked there after school, I can recall many discussions he had with wholesalers about ordering stuff. The salesman would try to push new cards and my father would yell he had unopened boxes of earlier series that had to be returned because he couldn't move them. I recall him getting especially annoyed when the wholesaler once refused to extend a return credit because the merchandise was past its return date. I had to haul a couple of large cases of 1961 baseball cards out back to a dumpster because the storeroom needed more room. Painful memory now.

That's pretty much what I was thinking, the wholesaler would get pushed by Topps and would push the retailer, who wasn't buying if they still had earlier series.

Damn, cases of 61..... If anyone knew.

[jingram058]

I agree totally with wholesaler to retailer as stated above. However, that said, with my parents' help, I did build complete 1967 and 1968 Topps sets in their entirety, by the checklists, with many, many dupes, from 5 cent wax packs bought mainly at TG&Y and Kroger.

[jchcollins]

Although not nearly as difficult as other high number series either before, (1952) or in the years that followed - I always found it interesting that Topps stuck Willie Mays, Yogi Berra, and Duke Snider (all in NY and huge at the time) in the last series in 1955. Hodges and Rizzuto aren't low numbers either.