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  #1  
Old 11-27-2012, 09:27 PM
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Default HOF ballot coming up

With this years HOF comming up it brinks up the BIG question. Should the Roid guys ever get in to the hof and do they deserve it.

Would love to hear thoughts on the Hall of Fame. In reguards to the 80-90 (roid players) making the hof or not. Do you think bonds and company deserve to be in the HOF?

If so..... why , if not.... why
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Last edited by EvilKing00; 11-27-2012 at 09:27 PM.
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  #2  
Old 11-27-2012, 10:57 PM
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Cooperstown Circus Freaks Show. How's that for a compromise destination?

The funny part is I'm not joking.

Last edited by drc; 11-27-2012 at 11:58 PM.
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  #3  
Old 11-28-2012, 09:03 AM
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No, leave them out.

Why? If it were a real room with live guys sitting around enjoying themselves, you wouldn't want them to have to put up with the stink of cheaters like Bonds and McGwire. It's bad enough that the HOF is watered down, but at least it's clean water.

David's idea isn't bad - create a freak show HOF for guys whose records would have gotten them in if they weren't juiced.

But...I'd put Jackson, Chase and Rose in; otherwise you have to remove Speaker, Cobb and probably a bunch more.
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Old 11-28-2012, 09:18 AM
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I'm still waiting for someone to convince me why Minnie Minoso shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame ...

http://minnieminoso.blogspot.com/
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  #5  
Old 11-28-2012, 10:29 AM
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A while back I sent this Open Letter to the Baseball Hall Of Fame.
(and a few others who may get the word out more, radio / media)

Got a few "unnamed responces" saying good argument and best argument they had heard. Neither responce was from the HOF but rather from media



To Whom It May Concern:


I know this will have no influence over any voting as current members and writer’s only vote, but I felt I had to express my opinion and observations not for myself but for my son who is 3 years old.

I’m 38 years old and live in New York, I grew up a big Mets fan and I got to see the Mets win the World Series when I was a kid. God I loved watching baseball and that was some team to watch. A lot of those players drank and did drugs, cocaine specifically. I also watched players cork their bats and fill their bats with batteries to give them an advantage at the plate. It was baseball and fun to watch. Players always did and always will do what they have to do to get an advantage.


I have seen Mike Scott scuff balls and of course there was the Joe Niekro incident when he was suspended for having a nail file in his pocket and scuffing the ball. Kevin Gross was caught with sandpaper, Gaylord Perry was famous for his spit ball as well.


I have heard stories from my grand father of how Mickey Mantle was a big drinker and Speed user and how Ty Cobb would sharpen his cleats so to give him an advantage sliding into second base. Many players back then did a lot of Amphetamines, this is not a secret and Amphetamines are also a PED.

Clarence Faber, Stan Covelski, and Burleigh Grimes are among the 17 pitchers who were allowed to keep throwing the spitball under a "grandfather" clause when the spitball was banned.

These players got caught, im sure this wasn’t the 1st time they cheated and im sure its wasn’t the last. I am also sure that there are others that have done the same and gotten away with it. Everyone who cheats dosnt always get caught. There was that “list” with 100 players on it who were caught doing PED’s, but how many players werent caught? 200? 300? More? We will never know.



I can continue but I know you get the jist of this. Corking bats, stuffing bats with batteries, throwing spit balls and scuffing balls is cheating. And yes so is PED’s.


I now see players drinking “Protein drinks” to get an edge. I see players on the bench drinking cans of red bull to get them selves UP for their next at bat. Is this also performance enhancing?



A player has always done and will always do whatever they can to have an advantage. This will never change. Weather its, sharpening his cleets, corking bats, popping speed, snorting cocaine, doing steroids, or HGH and whatever is the next thing that comes around that can enhance a player’s performance. And make no mistake there will be more PED down the road.


Bonds, Mcgwire, Sosa, Piazza, Griffy, Biggio, Bagwell, Clemens, Maddux, Smolts, Glavin, Arod, Shefield, Manny, etc – Some were caught some were not, Some did it some maybe didn’t, they were all great and a part of the history of the game and were some of the best players in baseball history.

I hope when my son is old enough I can take him to the Baseball Hall of fame and not only show him Ty Cobb, Mickey Mantle, but also the amazing players that played when I was a kid.

But Like I said I know this letter will have no impact, so if some of the greatest players of all time never get voted into the Hall Of Fame, when I bring my son I will also have to bring my old news paper clippings and baseball cards of players who I watched and who put up some amazing numbers. I will have to teach him on my own what players were dominant during their time. Or maybe there will be another Baseball Museum I can go to with all the great players from the 80-90's.


I want my Son to know the history of baseball, just like I was told about “The Mick” Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth and all the others. I will tell him about Bonds and Mcgwire and the rest of the 1990’s players who also put up amazing numbers. He will know how great and dominant they were and also what they did, just like I know how great Cobb and Mantle were but also what they did.

Hopefully the HOF will continue to have all the best players that have played the game to be on display. A history and showcase of the greatest players ever. …That’s the whole concept isn’t it? If not I hope there will be a place I can take my son to show him all these players in baseball history who were the elite of their time. Weather they sharpened their cleets, scuffed balls, threw spitters, corked bats, popped speed, snorting cocaine, drank Red Bull, took caffeine pills, used caffeine inhalants, did steroids, or HGH. And what ever comes next.



They are all the greatest players to ever play this game.

Isn’t the Halls Motto "Preserving History, Honoring Excellence, Connecting Generations."

PS – Banning Pete Rose from Baseball makes sense, keeping him from working for a team and out of the actual game is his sentence for betting on baseball BUT keeping him out of the HOF makes no sense at all – again the HOF is a history of the games best.
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Last edited by EvilKing00; 11-28-2012 at 10:29 AM.
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  #6  
Old 11-28-2012, 10:34 AM
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Well-done, EK.

It's hard to argue with your logic, but I draw a different line: Mantle's drinking didn't create muscle to allow him to hit more home runs. 'Cheating' by scuffing balls, skipping 2nd base in the old days when there was only one umpire, etc., etc., also didn't physically change anyone's bodies. There has to be a line, or you'd have to toss all these guys....or include them all. My line is the performance-enhancing drugs.

But I get your logic, and you've defended your points very well.
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  #7  
Old 11-28-2012, 10:36 AM
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listen i love Mick but he did alot of speed which - I know helps your performance
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  #8  
Old 11-28-2012, 11:24 AM
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listen i love Mick but he did alot of speed which - I know helps your performance
Well, we could kick out/(or prohibit) anyone who did speed....or drank alcohol .... or drank coffee (caffeine is arguably as performance-hancing as speed - I personally would argue moreso).

There has to be a line drawn somewhere. I completely understand yours - anything goes. I just don't agree with it.
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:54 AM
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Let them in. I agree with the reasons stated above. It is also more than a little hypocritical for MLB to practically encourage the use of PEDs by intentionally turning a blind eye to it for years and then get all self-righteous about it later. Bonds was one of the one most dominating offensive players in the history of the game and for him to not be in the Hall would be a travesty of justice.
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Old 11-28-2012, 12:03 PM
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Let them in. I agree with the reasons stated above. It is also more than a little hypocritical for MLB to practically encourage the use of PEDs by intentionally turning a blind eye to it for years and then get all self-righteous about it later. Bonds was one of the one most dominating offensive players in the history of the game and for him to not be in the Hall would be a travesty of justice.
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^ Agree
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Old 11-28-2012, 12:03 PM
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I find these debates very interesting - I can't conceive that anyone would consider letting these guys in, but you guys can't conceive the opposite It's almost like political viewpoints, or legalizing pot.
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Old 11-28-2012, 12:19 PM
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I'm pretty ambivalent about the whole thing.........I've just grown very weary of it. It seems like there's no end, and this is a shadow that will hang over all athletes for a very long time.

I'm at the point, if Bonds gets in..........that's great, he is without a doubt the most dominant hitter I've ever seen in my time. If he doesn't get in..........well, that won't break my heart either.

I am also a bit loathe to see Baseball go the way of the NCAA. Wiping out teams, records, players, statistics and pretending large swaths of history never even existed...............for better or for worse.

Last edited by D. Bergin; 11-28-2012 at 12:19 PM.
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Old 11-28-2012, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E93 View Post
Let them in. I agree with the reasons stated above. It is also more than a little hypocritical for MLB to practically encourage the use of PEDs by intentionally turning a blind eye to it for years and then get all self-righteous about it later. Bonds was one of the one most dominating offensive players in the history of the game and for him to not be in the Hall would be a travesty of justice.
JimB
Yes, he was, but that dominance was achieved in violation of the rules. (He probably was a first ballot HOFer before he ever used, but for purposes of this argument leave that aside.) Suppose he hadn't used PEDs but it turned out he had used an illegal corked bat his whole career. Wouldn't you view his dominance as tainted in that case and if so, what's the difference?
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Old 11-28-2012, 01:09 PM
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I think bonds, mcgwire clemens, as well as joe jackson and pete rose should be in.

Now i have a question..... Should mike piazza get in??? I think So but.

Comming from a met fan, he was on PEDs too, but so far he wasnt cought i guess.

So some guys out and some in? We know bonds did it but never was cought - piazza wasnt cought either. both in or both out??
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Last edited by EvilKing00; 11-28-2012 at 01:11 PM.
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Old 11-28-2012, 01:21 PM
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I think bonds, mcgwire clemens, as well as joe jackson and pete rose should be in.

Now i have a question..... Should mike piazza get in??? I think So but.

Comming from a met fan, he was on PEDs too, but so far he wasnt cought i guess.

So some guys out and some in? We know bonds did it but never was cought - piazza wasnt cought either. both in or both out??

What about Palmiero? That guy has mind-boggling lifetime stats for a guy struggling to get 12% of the Hall's votes.

Hit several milestone numbers. Top 20 all-time in a ton of categories. A top defensive 1st Baseman, even if one of his Gold Gloves is bogus.

Last edited by D. Bergin; 11-28-2012 at 01:39 PM.
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Old 11-28-2012, 01:29 PM
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I'm pretty ambivalent about the whole thing.........I've just grown very weary of it. It seems like there's no end, and this is a shadow that will hang over all athletes for a very long time.

I'm at the point, if Bonds gets in..........that's great, he is without a doubt the most dominant hitter I've ever seen in my time. If he doesn't get in..........well, that won't break my heart either.

I am also a bit loathe to see Baseball go the way of the NCAA. Wiping out teams, records, players, statistics and pretending large swaths of history never even existed...............for better or for worse.
I feel the exact same way. Let them in and then trust the fans who go to Cooperstown to know the history of the game. I wouldn't feel dirty about seeing a Barry Bonds plaque. It would give me a chance to explain to my kids "here's a guy that was already an incredible talent, and yet he got greedy and took drugs in order to gain more fame". Their legacy is already what it is, whether they make it in the HOF or not.
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Old 11-28-2012, 01:46 PM
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I think you have to put all the guys who started in the mid 80's to early 90's, or none of them.

I personally think almost all were using some sort of PED's.

You cannot have the incredible, historic numbers in the huge quantities and at the advanced ages without getting a "little pick me up" of PED's.

Randy Johnson, Clemens, Bonds, should have been declining in production as they hit the mid 30's instead they were better than ever.

Piazza has offensive numbers that no catcher ever had before or since.....

Luis Gonzalez and Brady Anderson having historic seasons......

Either put them all in, or put none in, as we only know of a handful who were caught when it is likely all were using to some extent.
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Old 11-28-2012, 01:54 PM
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I will lose all faith if it turns out Ripken, Gwynn, Maddux or Griffey used. Or Jeter.

Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 11-28-2012 at 01:54 PM.
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Old 11-28-2012, 02:10 PM
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Let them in. They were THE best at their position, EVER! And that's what the HOF is about, the best of the best. None failed a test, and it's not like steroids made them HOF'ers. Bonds was already a monster at the plate 'pre' steroids and easily had a HOF career, and Clemens was nasty, you saw his rookie year.

Yes, steroids can potentially make you stronger and bigger, I'm not calling anyone out specifically but it seems like so many people are too ignorant to know the other side of steroids, and so sick of people claiming that steroids are always used to help with increasing your performance. MOST players used steroids to RECOVER FASTER! Not a always get bigger, faster, stronger. Steroids actually can't make you faster because you cannot change your Type 1 or 2 muscles. But if you were a struggling pitcher who got shoulder surgery and may not have a job, you're damn right you're looking to take steroids to come back quicker from that injury.

Even in taking steroids, getting bigger muscles and having the sexy biceps or becoming stronger does not necessarily mean AT ALL that you're going to be a better player, most likely it would go against you if you got too large. Steroids do not help your hand-eye/optical focal coordination. They decrease your range of motion and your flexibility if you get too large, which would be detrimental to your game.

Which is more detrimental for the game, a player for supposedly taking a drug compared to a player being a racist or beats there wife? I saw the latter. Bonds was good for baseball, and so were McGwire and Sosa, they revived the game with that magical summer of '98, people watched the game again because of them, they saved baseball. Remember, most of this is all acqusations.

It's funny how everyone gives a crap about ballplayer's getting caught and not allowing them in the Hall or whatever, but for NFL players, no one gives a damn for failed substance abuse and performance ehancing test failures. But I guarantee the large profile NFL players will get in the Hall who have gotten caught. I mean heck, Ray Lewis and Dante Stallworth killed a man, what was the punishment? Lewis a slap on the wrist, and Stallworth avoided jailtime or had a few weeks with other stipulations. And players get more punishment for taking a drug, that's funny.

But my stance is look past the character and what they did as a person, and focus on what they did on the field, which is what the Hall is about. Bonds, A-Rod etc were dumb to take drugs, they were easily going to be the best ever in the game or close to it without them.
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Old 11-28-2012, 02:19 PM
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What's your evidence that Ray Lewis was guilty of anything other than the misdemeanor he pleaded to?
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Old 11-28-2012, 02:58 PM
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What's your evidence that Ray Lewis was guilty of anything other than the misdemeanor he pleaded to?
I will try to locate the story I had saved, but if he didn't there are still others.
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Old 11-28-2012, 03:05 PM
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so many football players wer on steeroids and still are on hgh. like in baseball everyone will do what ever they can to get an advantage.

LT (the real LT) was on coke all the time - which in my opinion helped his game - which was fine by me.
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Old 11-28-2012, 03:12 PM
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Luis Gonzalez and Brady Anderson having historic seasons......
I wondered about those guys as well, but it's not unprecedented: Davey Johnson had a phenomenal power year back before steroids, and Ryan Braun did pretty well this year, presumably drug-free. Hack Wilson also seemed to power-peak over a very short period.

So as far as assuming they all did it, I don't think we can do that. But of course, the HOF voters can.
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Old 11-28-2012, 03:16 PM
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I will try to locate the story I had saved, but if he didn't there are still others.
My recollection is that he was charged initially but there really wasn't any evidence that he had any involvement in the actual stabbings, but he did obstruct justice by encouraging people in his posse not to talk to the authorities. Something like that. Of course who knows what really happened.
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Old 11-28-2012, 03:18 PM
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I wondered about those guys as well, but it's not unprecedented: Davey Johnson had a phenomenal power year back before steroids, and Ryan Braun did pretty well this year, presumably drug-free. Hack Wilson also seemed to power-peak over a very short period.

So as far as assuming they all did it, I don't think we can do that. But of course, the HOF voters can.
On the pitching side Steve Stone had a Cy Young season out of nowhere, and then vanished immediately.
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Old 11-28-2012, 03:36 PM
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I wondered about those guys as well, but it's not unprecedented: Davey Johnson had a phenomenal power year back before steroids, and Ryan Braun did pretty well this year, presumably drug-free. Hack Wilson also seemed to power-peak over a very short period.

So as far as assuming they all did it, I don't think we can do that. But of course, the HOF voters can.
Yes Brady and Gonzo certainly do raise some eyebrows, and Jose Bautista if you were to throw out the past two seasons and just have his first breakout season.

It's looking pretty clear something helped, but with Jose, he made some major major adjustments at the plate, and kudos to Chad Mottola for that, Jose owes him almost every cent of his paycheck.
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Old 11-28-2012, 03:38 PM
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My recollection is that he was charged initially but there really wasn't any evidence that he had any involvement in the actual stabbings, but he did obstruct justice by encouraging people in his posse not to talk to the authorities. Something like that. Of course who knows what really happened.
I believe you are collect, sorry for my accusation.
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Old 11-28-2012, 03:47 PM
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so many football players wer on steeroids and still are on hgh. like in baseball everyone will do what ever they can to get an advantage.

LT (the real LT) was on coke all the time - which in my opinion helped his game - which was fine by me.
As a Redskin fan (and on behalf of #7) it was not fine by me!!!!!
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Old 11-28-2012, 05:22 PM
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As a Redskin fan (and on behalf of #7) it was not fine by me!!!!!
lmao - i saw that play live and it was ugly

Hey looks like you finally have a QB - and hes real good. looks like maybe Big Blue and Wash may be fighting for the division for a few years again like the old days.
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Old 11-28-2012, 06:19 PM
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Bonds should be in, and so should Clemens. I know they cheated, but in our society, so does pretty much everyone else. Bankers cheat. Wall Street cheats. Politicians cheat. Autograph forgers cheat. Everybody cheats, it's the American way. Let them in and move on.

Last edited by barrysloate; 11-28-2012 at 06:19 PM.
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Old 11-28-2012, 06:44 PM
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Yeah, it's letting their 'numbers' in that bugs me the most. On the other hand, we had a 'dead ball' era and a 'live ball' era, between which number comparisons were practically meaningless. Same within the dead ball era whenever there were major rule changes. So perhaps we just get used to the 'steroid era' and don't worry about making comparisons of stats.

I'm sure there will be someone who creates a modified record book that removes anything done by steroid users.
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Old 11-28-2012, 06:47 PM
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Bonds should be in, and so should Clemens. I know they cheated, but in our society, so does pretty much everyone else. Bankers cheat. Wall Street cheats. Politicians cheat. Autograph forgers cheat. Everybody cheats, it's the American way. Let them in and move on.
Barry - It's not the American way, it's the way of American cheaters. I hope your comment was tongue-in-cheek. I would hate to see a take home message for our kids of "Don't cheat, but if you do and you can get away with it, that's fine."
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Old 11-28-2012, 07:18 PM
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When the "cheaters" start trickling in it will be interesting to see how they are received and treated by the old guard at the Hall.
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Old 11-28-2012, 07:24 PM
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Even if you take too much caffeine, that is considered performance enhancing. I believe the Olympic committee is very strict on that, which I find absurd
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Old 11-29-2012, 12:24 AM
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A line for me for performance enhancing items is whether or not they are legal.

Caffeine isn't illegal and cocaine isn't performance enhancing.

Last edited by drc; 11-29-2012 at 12:25 AM.
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Old 11-29-2012, 04:25 AM
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Barry - It's not the American way, it's the way of American cheaters. I hope your comment was tongue-in-cheek. I would hate to see a take home message for our kids of "Don't cheat, but if you do and you can get away with it, that's fine."
Not tongue in cheek, but cynical. All I see around me are people cheating, in every walk of life. Yes, I absolutely deplore it. But to deny a player into the HOF because he took a drug that built up his muscles is plainly hypocritical. Bonds was the greatest hitter I ever saw, possibly one of the top five all time. Clemens was one of the greatest pitchers of all time. To deny them entrance, but to allow a less than stellar Bobby Doerr in, is a mockery of the whole process.

Gaylord Perry pitched nearly his whole career with a dab of vaseline under his cap. It's against the rules to put a foreign substance on a ball, and nearly every pitch he threw was a greaseball. He's in the Hall. And his stats don't hold a candle to Clemens.

Let's stop pretending baseball is some lily white enterprise and let these guys in. If you want you can affix a scarlet letter "C" for "cheater"on their plaques. That way the fans can tell the good guys from the bad guys.

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Old 11-29-2012, 04:26 AM
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A line for me for performance enhancing items is whether or not they are legal.

Caffeine isn't illegal and cocaine isn't performance enhancing.
coke ehances your performance no doubt
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:42 AM
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Let them in. They were THE best at their position, EVER! And that's what the HOF is about, the best of the best. None failed a test, and it's not like steroids made them HOF'ers. Bonds was already a monster at the plate 'pre' steroids and easily had a HOF career, and Clemens was nasty, you saw his rookie year.

Yes, steroids can potentially make you stronger and bigger, I'm not calling anyone out specifically but it seems like so many people are too ignorant to know the other side of steroids, and so sick of people claiming that steroids are always used to help with increasing your performance. MOST players used steroids to RECOVER FASTER! Not a always get bigger, faster, stronger. Steroids actually can't make you faster because you cannot change your Type 1 or 2 muscles. But if you were a struggling pitcher who got shoulder surgery and may not have a job, you're damn right you're looking to take steroids to come back quicker from that injury.

Even in taking steroids, getting bigger muscles and having the sexy biceps or becoming stronger does not necessarily mean AT ALL that you're going to be a better player, most likely it would go against you if you got too large. Steroids do not help your hand-eye/optical focal coordination. They decrease your range of motion and your flexibility if you get too large, which would be detrimental to your game.

Which is more detrimental for the game, a player for supposedly taking a drug compared to a player being a racist or beats there wife? I saw the latter. Bonds was good for baseball, and so were McGwire and Sosa, they revived the game with that magical summer of '98, people watched the game again because of them, they saved baseball. Remember, most of this is all acqusations.

It's funny how everyone gives a crap about ballplayer's getting caught and not allowing them in the Hall or whatever, but for NFL players, no one gives a damn for failed substance abuse and performance ehancing test failures. But I guarantee the large profile NFL players will get in the Hall who have gotten caught. I mean heck, Ray Lewis and Dante Stallworth killed a man, what was the punishment? Lewis a slap on the wrist, and Stallworth avoided jailtime or had a few weeks with other stipulations. And players get more punishment for taking a drug, that's funny.

But my stance is look past the character and what they did as a person, and focus on what they did on the field, which is what the Hall is about. Bonds, A-Rod etc were dumb to take drugs, they were easily going to be the best ever in the game or close to it without them.
True, the steroids mostly speed recovery. Which is exactly what makes it help build strength for an athlete who trains.

When things were coming out I asked someone I knew who was a wrestler/bodybuilder (classic wrestling, not TV wrestling) about steroids.
He said that the aid in recovery was the key. Typically someone needs downtime in training, heavy weights one day speed the next, or a couple days of weight followed by a couple light days. The muscles get damaged and get rebuilt a bit bigger and stronger. But it takes time, and overdoing it makes you weaker.
But with steroids the recovery is fast enough that someone can train hard every day. So the benefits of the workouts are at least twice as fast. Some stuff also lets the rebuilt muscle be much stronger, so a combination leads to a lot of mass and strength very quickly.

The downside is that once a person lays off the stuff they're going to be injury prone since now the workouts do far more damage than normal recovery time can account for. Nearly all the main users had a lost year with maybe a second "off" year after as they got hurt and readjusted to being normal again. And a rash of those happened in the year or two leading up to the testing program. still more came as the program was begun although the first year was very weak testing.

It's not possible to fail a test that isn't taken.

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Old 11-29-2012, 09:04 AM
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True, the steroids mostly speed recovery. Which is exactly what makes it help build strength for an athlete who trains.

When things were coming out I asked someone I knew who was a wrestler/bodybuilder (classic wrestling, not TV wrestling) about steroids.
He said that the aid in recovery was the key. Typically someone needs downtime in training, heavy weights one day speed the next, or a couple days of weight followed by a couple light days. The muscles get damaged and get rebuilt a bit bigger and stronger. But it takes time, and overdoing it makes you weaker.
But with steroids the recovery is fast enough that someone can train hard every day. So the benefits of the workouts are at least twice as fast. Some stuff also lets the rebuilt muscle be much stronger, so a combination leads to a lot of mass and strength very quickly.

The downside is that once a person lays off the stuff they're going to be injury prone since now the workouts do far more damage than normal recovery time can account for. Nearly all the main users had a lost year with maybe a second "off" year after as they got hurt and readjusted to being normal again. And a rash of those happened in the year or two leading up to the testing program. still more came as the program was begun although the first year was very weak testing.

It's not possible to fail a test that isn't taken.

Steve B
Good points, it certainly does help with recover and I certainly looked at that route when I got injured. But regardless if you take steroids, doesn't make you better. Matt Lawton, Chuck Knoblauch, it did nothing for them. You still need to have the God given skillsets, and steroids don't change your genetic code or your muscle type fibers, so you still need to be able to see the ball and hit the ball. Does not help optical focal or hand eye coordination.
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:05 AM
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[QUOTE=steve B;1057015]It's not possible to fail a test that isn't taken./QUOTE]

False, if one is not taken, there is not one to fail.
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:24 AM
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Good points, it certainly does help with recover and I certainly looked at that route when I got injured. But regardless if you take steroids, doesn't make you better. Matt Lawton, Chuck Knoblauch, it did nothing for them. You still need to have the God given skillsets, and steroids don't change your genetic code or your muscle type fibers, so you still need to be able to see the ball and hit the ball. Does not help optical focal or hand eye coordination.

I used to have a lot of the same arguments as you, but over time I realized I was just being hopeful, because I didn't want to believe steroids were really changing the game.

If the precipitous drop in power numbers of the top guys the last few years isn't an indication, I don't know what is.

Just looking back at McGwire. He went from having debilitating back issues in Oakland, to hitting towering 600 foot homers on a regular basis in St. Louis.

That just doesn't happen. I can forgive him if he used steroid treatment to try to get his back healthy as a medical issue..............hell, that's what any civilian on the street would do, rather then suffer through a lifetime of back pain.

I think it's pretty plain, that he went and took it to the next level after that. Started using stuff a bit more sophisticated and harder to track then the garbage Canseco was allegedly shooting him up with in Oakland, whether it's HGH, Testosterone or whatever.



Not necessarily bad for the body.........but not so great for what we consider the sanctity of the sport.
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Old 11-29-2012, 11:28 AM
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To hitting towering 600 foot homers on a regular basis in St. Louis.
That does not happen, ever at all, no one hits a bomb 600 ft on a regular basis, not even in BP. But I get the jist of what you're saying. They did a test to say, for example 'let's say with steroids, for power on HR's we would add 15 feet or so.' So they looked at the HR's of Bonds etc to see if his still would have gone out or not, and very very few were questionable. There is no scientific evidence to support this, just a theory.

But, I will say again, you still need to be able to hit the ball no matter how much drugs you take.
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Old 11-29-2012, 01:00 PM
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Good points, it certainly does help with recover and I certainly looked at that route when I got injured. But regardless if you take steroids, doesn't make you better. Matt Lawton, Chuck Knoblauch, it did nothing for them. You still need to have the God given skillsets, and steroids don't change your genetic code or your muscle type fibers, so you still need to be able to see the ball and hit the ball. Does not help optical focal or hand eye coordination.
I was on steroids this spring (prescribed for a torn tendon, prior to surgery this summer). Initial diagnosis was tendonitis, I could not run without limping and having it swell up. I got a steroid shot from the doctor and within 8 hours I was playing basketball, with no pain. This would last for 2-3 weeks, then it would swell. Got a second steroid shot, playing softball, basketball, and soccer - no pain.

That is the benefit of steroids, quick recovery from injuries, including serious ones like mine where the outside tendon in the foot was torn in half and required surgery in June which has taken 5 months to recover from.
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Old 11-29-2012, 02:11 PM
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I was on steroids this spring (prescribed for a torn tendon, prior to surgery this summer). Initial diagnosis was tendonitis, I could not run without limping and having it swell up. I got a steroid shot from the doctor and within 8 hours I was playing basketball, with no pain. This would last for 2-3 weeks, then it would swell. Got a second steroid shot, playing softball, basketball, and soccer - no pain.

That is the benefit of steroids, quick recovery from injuries, including serious ones like mine where the outside tendon in the foot was torn in half and required surgery in June which has taken 5 months to recover from.
Cortisone?
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Old 11-30-2012, 01:21 PM
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Cortisone?
I'm not sure what the steroid was, it was injected into the tendon
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Old 12-03-2012, 12:49 PM
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For whatever its worth, right or wrong.......let them in.......BUT have the proven PHD users collectively in the same room in the Hall and call it the "Steroid Era" time era room.

So they do get in, but kinda sorta have an unseen asterisk by placing them all in same room.

And feel free to let in Roger Maris and Bo Jackson. Talk about famous, they were two of the most famous of all players of their era's.

Jeez, how many TV commercials were made with Bo Jackson? He had the ENTIRE country captivated by his on field talents. He had every kid in America scrambling for his baseball and football cards. If its fame you are after, it doesn't get much more famous than Bo Jackson. Some of the recently voted in ya-hoo's couldn't even hold Bo Jackson's jockstrap, for crying out loud!
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