BVG vs. Every Other Grading Company

[jb217676]

Where do BVG cards rank with you, the vintage card collector? Would you buy a BVG graded card? If not, why? Just wonderin'.

[Matt]

I rank BVG ahead of PSA in my trust-o-meter, though I don't find their cases nearly as attractive as SGC's. I also think they've done them-self some damage with the whole BCCG thing.

[Cat]

I have never hesitated to buy a BVG graded card.

[calvindog]

Dude, I thought you were retired?

Edited to add: my mistake -- you did write in the past tense.

[Abravefan11]

Their holder is built like a tank but I can't stand it aesthetically.

I recently sent in the two T206's during SGC's crossover monthly special just because I didn't like the way they looked. One crossed evenly and the other got a .5 bump and both look great in their new holders.

[jb217676]

Why does BCCG even exist? I don't know anyone who has used it, or why anyone would use it.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by jb217676

Why does BCCG even exist? I don't know anyone who has used it, or why anyone would use it.

There's a Leaf Satchell Paige on eBay right now (BIN) in a BCCG 6 holder that was cracked from either an SGC 10 or a 20. One can guess why the seller did this.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by jb217676

Why does BCCG even exist? I don't know anyone who has used it, or why anyone would use it.

BCCG is for the mass merchant retailers such as Home Shopping Networks. Their grading is literally about 5-6 grades too high. It exists as it is a profitable part of that companies business (I believe) and has more to do with profit/loss than our hobby, especially the pre-war market. I know the guys over there at Beckett fairly well and they are only doing as instructed by the higher ups.....best regards

[Cat]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Dude, I thought you were retired?

Edited to add: my mistake -- you did write in the past tense.

You must know how the addiction can take hold of a person?

[Ladder7]

If I displayed stuff, I'd likely have a different response. Sensible holders and fair graders. Cross-overs weren't a problem. Good company, especially with David Cycleback as their new photo consultant.

[oldjudge]

Leon--I am not familiar with Beckett grading so let me ask you a question. Are you saying that Beckett has two grading services which have different standards such that the same card could receive two radically different grades from their two companies? If the "easier" grading group is providing cards for HSN, isn't Beckett just participating in a fraud with HSN?

[Leon]

Jay- They absolutely have 2 different services with different standards (though I have not seen the BCCG ones written). Personally, I don't think it's fraud but I am not a lawyer. You would have to contact them about that.
As for BVG I trust them more than anyone except SGC. I know both SGC and BVG have respect for each other's capabilities. I have always been happy with both services. I should also caveat these comments with the obvious- both are very supportive of Net54baseball.com and advertise here...but they still do a great job . best regards

[jb217676]

I totally agree with oldjudge. Are they not ripping off the novice collector who might just look at the numerical grade only, not knowing that the card is actually 5-6 grades lower? Why doesn't Beckett just grade everything BGS or BVG, so the useless BCCG graded junk is not in the marketplace? Why would Beckett slap their name on something collector's laugh at?

[oldjudge]

Jeff provides a good example. If a card would be graded Ex by Beckett's normal service but is called NrMt by a second Beckett service which provides grading for HSN, then that is just wrong. I don't use Beckett (and knowing this I never would) but if I had seen a NrMt Beckett graded card on HSN I would have assumed it was truely NrMt. In fact, I would have been paying for NrMt and getting Ex--sounds like a fraud to me.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by jb217676

I totally agree with oldjudge. Are they not ripping off the novice collector who might just look at the numerical grade only, not knowing that the card is actually 5-6 grades lower? Why doesn't Beckett just grade everything BGS or BVG, so the useless BCCG graded junk is not in the marketplace? Why would Beckett slap their name on something collector's laugh at?

Agree all you want to....doesn't bother me a bit. If you care to read my last post you will answer your own question(s). It's called Business 101. They have a book on it at the library. As far as discrediting their other services that's for each person to decipher for themself. My understanding is that the BCCG is a much less expensive service and again, is geared at mass merchants looking for a cheap grading service. Think what you want to...

[Matt]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Jeff provides a good example. If a card would be graded Ex by Beckett's normal service but is called NrMt by a second Beckett service which provides grading for HSN, then that is just wrong. I don't use Beckett (and knowing this I never would) but if I had seen a NrMt Beckett graded card on HSN I would have assumed it was truely NrMt. In fact, I would have been paying for NrMt and getting Ex--sounds like a fraud to me.

The slab doesn't call it NrMt. It would give it a numerical grade of 9/10 and then say "EX or better."

[oldjudge]

Oh, so "10" doesn't signify Mint?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Cat

You must know how the addiction can take hold of a person?

Who me? Nah. I wouldn't know anything about such a thing.

[oldjudge]

Looking at Ebay I found the following BCCG grade descriptions:

10-Mint or better (whatever that means)
9-NrMT or better
8-Ex or better

[Leon]

Here is an old thread when Mark Anderson, their Director of Grading, responded to the BCCG question...I hope this helps.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...highlight=BCCG

[jb217676]

I am O.K. with the cheap alternative theory, but why does the numerical grade have to be cheap? Why couldn't the same grade be given to a BCCG card as a BVG or BGS. Beckett could keep the BCCG price level lower by putting the cards in less expensive cases. This would keep the grading results consistent across the board.

[erstevens]

When I was buying an engagement ring several years ago, a jeweler talked to me about diamond certification. There are reputable diamond certification services (GIA) and less reputable ones (EGL). One jeweler can sell "ideal" diamonds with two different price levels. All buyers can walk out of the store and be happy with a graded ideal stone. In the end, it's buyer beware. It does seem that Beckett is being a bit risky by putting the Beckett name on both certification scales. On the other hand, they're banking a bit on the confusion.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by jb217676

I am O.K. with the cheap alternative theory, but why does the numerical grade have to be cheap? Why couldn't the same grade be given to a BCCG card as a BVG or BGS. Beckett could keep the BCCG price level lower by putting the cards in less expensive cases. This would keep the grading results consistent across the board.

Jeff- if you read what Beckett stated in that thread I just posted then I think you will have your answers. Mark stated he wasn't thrilled with that service and it wouldn't be for him personally. I can't really state it any better than he did and I agree with him that this could be an all day circular debate. I am politely getting off of the merry-go-round now. ..take care

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by jb217676

I am O.K. with the cheap alternative theory, but why does the numerical grade have to be cheap? Why couldn't the same grade be given to a BCCG card as a BVG or BGS. Beckett could keep the BCCG price level lower by putting the cards in less expensive cases. This would keep the grading results consistent across the board.

MARKETING!!!

With BCCG, no card will ever be graded lower than a 5. Their grades are 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10. That's it.

Also, the slabs are cheaper. There is no card sleeve inside. And, if you submit in enough quantity, I believe you can get a price as low as $2.00 a card!


In fairness, all of this would be fine IF THE GRADING SCALES WERE THE SAME! But they're not.

[jb217676]

I am getting of this ride also. Let's take it back to the beginning of the thread. A BVG 7 1952 Topps Mantle and a PSA 7 1952 Topps Mantle are on the same table. You have a duffel bag o'cash on hand. Which one do you grab? If you didn't choose the BVG Mantle, why? PSA set registries aside.

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by Jim VB

In fairness, all of this would be fine IF THE GRADING SCALES WERE THE SAME! But they're not.

In case the book is checked out at the library, the class still has a few spots open:

[HRBAKER]

I haven't used BVG and BCCG is the precise reason. I did once use BVG for grading at the National because I had a credit due to purchasing a questionable card in a BVG holder. They made right on it but the whole BCCG thing is just wrong IMO. I will add that all of the BVG cards that I have purchased on ebay and elsewhere (less than 20) all appear to be very accurately graded and the holder is tank-like.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Rob D.

In case the book is checked out at the library, the class still has a few spots open:

Thanks Rob...in this virtual world I forgot about some of the methods we can now use to teach.

Jeff- For me, and consider the source, I would personally pick BVG as I think they are very good at grading. I am sure PSA does a great job too.

[SethY]

So if I have a card in a BVG Authentic holder it would be pretty likely to be crossed over easily into an SGC A holder?

I would pick Beckett as a secong choice unless I have a EX front card and a bit of damage on the back then PSA so that way I can get a really high grade for a really low grade card. SGC is #1 for me and I don't buy many beckett cards because I don't see many in my collecting interest to buy. They are very consistant from what I have seen and market does normally command close to Average so this is good.

Jeff the BVG Mantle hands down. Then cross to PSA for a 9 and off to auction

[barrysloate]

I don't understand the concept that Beckett grades on a 5-10 scale because they want to offer a cheap alternative to their BVG service. Doesn't it cost the same to properly grade a card as it does to overgrade it?

[Republicaninmass]

59 fleer Ted Williams in a BVG holder came back sheet cut

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by jb217676

I am getting of this ride also. Let's take it back to the beginning of the thread. A BVG 7 1952 Topps Mantle and a PSA 7 1952 Topps Mantle are on the same table. You have a duffel bag o'cash on hand. Which one do you grab? If you didn't choose the BVG Mantle, why? PSA set registries aside.

Jeff,

I'd buy whichever card looks nicer. I don't care what the number on the plastic says.

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

I don't understand the concept that Beckett grades on a 5-10 scale because they want to offer a cheap alternative to their BVG service. Doesn't it cost the same to properly grade a card as it does to overgrade it?

Barry,

I'm not arguing the Pro side here, but they do grade it more quickly because they don't have to split hairs over whether something is a 1 or a 2. It's simply a 5.


From a marketing point of view, someone who doesn't know what they're doing (or someone hoping to sell to someone who doesn't know what they're doing) is more likely to favor a BCCG 5 over a PSA 1.

[smtjoy]

I will not use them as I think BCCG is misleading and only hurts collectors who are new to the hobby, bad business for Beckett.

[barrysloate]

Jim- the difference between a nice 1 and a weak 2 is splitting hairs. The difference between a 2 and a 5 is huge.

Here's my take: the people who buy collectibles on HSN are not very knowledgeable and are easy marks for sellers. They are going to put a good deal of trust into those professionally graded cards they buy from HSN. But if they ever try to resell them they will find out they are virtually worthless, and that the grade is meaningless. I don't think that is a fair business model. There already is enough chicanery in the collectibles world, and this kind of looks like more of the same. I know there are worse scams than this, but hyperinflating grades just isn't a great thing.

Again, we're not talking about an EX-MT card that's graded NR MT. We're talking about a beater that's graded EX.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by Jim VB

MARKETING!!!

With BCCG, no card will ever be graded lower than a 5. Their grades are 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10. That's it.

Also, the slabs are cheaper. There is no card sleeve inside. And, if you submit in enough quantity, I believe you can get a price as low as $2.00 a card!


In fairness, all of this would be fine IF THE GRADING SCALES WERE THE SAME! But they're not.

But these slabs go to 11. ($1 to Nigel Tufnel)

[drdduet]

BVG is a quality 3rd party authenticator and grader. I have no qualms buying cards encapsulated, unless of course I plan to crack it out of its tomb, then I prefer SGC and PSA.

[ChiefBenderForever]

I have a few BVG in my Bender collection, a T206 portrait El Princ, a nice T202, and a really nice Turkey Red. All the cards are very nice and undergraded in my opionion. It seems to me that BVG grades tougher if anything and their cases are pretty much tamper proof. I pretty much go by eye appeal, so if it's in BVG, SGC, or PSA it doesn't matter to me one way or another, it's all good.

[famousgolfers]

Actually, don't they have 3 grading groups/labels - BGS, BVG and BCCG? Each of them also has their own grading scale. BGS is for cards after 1980 and BVG is for cards 1980 and before (or something close to that). BCCG is for just about anything.

[Jim VB]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

But these slabs go to 11. ($1 to Nigel Tufnel)

Aah! You mean this scale.

[FrankWakefield]

To answer Jeff's original post... low, not at the bottom, not at the top, slightly above middle. Yes I would and I have bought them, when it was a card I was after. All but one I broke out. I think I left a white border portrait of Elberfeld with Washington in the holder, because I was going to sell it, the card had Scotch magic tape on the back...

Seems that they shouldn't be selling cards if they're going to grade them. A bit of a breach of fiduciary duty there....

[E93]

Originally Posted by Leon

Jeff- For me, and consider the source, I would personally pick BVG as I think they are far more consistent in their grading, and know more about pre-war, than most of the graders at that grading company from California that is part of Collectors Universe. Just my opinion and many will disagree.

Leon,
You are certainly entitled to your opinions, but let's separate opinions from speculation. Do you know how many graders there are at PSA? Among them, how many grade vintage cards? And among those that grade vintage cards, how many have you had in-depth discussions with such than you would be in a place to draw an informed conclusion about their knowledge of vintage cards? Sure PSA has made mistakes. From my unscientific observation, the grading companies each make mistakes in approximately equal proportion to the number of cards they grade. You may know the graders at BVG and based on that know that they are knowledgeable about pre-War cards. Since I have hardly seen any pre-war cards in BVG holders, presuming they were knowledgeable in that are would be a giant leap of faith for me. I would certainly trust them with '89 Donruss if I had any.
JimB

[GoldenAge50s]

I would certainly trust them with '89 Donruss if I had any.

Jim--

How many would you like?

[Leon]

Jim,
I was basing my comments on what I have personally seen but you are correct in that I don't know ANY graders at PSA. Because of that and I don't want to be accused of bashing, I have edited my comments. Thanks for the heads up!!

[E93]

Leon,
I hope I didn't seem too harsh. It has been tough day.
JimB

[drc]

My practical advice would be to mentally separate BCCG from BVG/BGS, and leave it at that. It's like Coke and diet Coke-- they both have Coke in the name but are different things. There's no practical gain in fretting over why the two Cokes taste so different. They just do.

[BlueDevil89]

Originally Posted by drc

My practical advice would be to mentally separate BCCG from BVG/BGS, and leave it at that. It's like Coke and diet Coke-- they both have Coke in the name but are different things. There's no practical gain in fretting over why the two Cokes taste so different. They just do.

I would say COKE and NEW COKE is a more appropriate comparison. The original was cool, but the new one is a weak imitation.

[drc]

I agree that you're Coke examples are better. Some here might have gone as far as suggesting I use another Coca Cola product, Tab, and its 'Has Been Shown to Cause Cancer in Lab Mice' disclaimer.

If you want my candid opinion on the matter, I'm not a fan of BCCG, but I'm unaware that the grading is wrong (most of the complaints really boil down to the grading being different, which is an issue separate from accuracy), the grade is clearly spelled out on the label and I, or one, have no trouble differenciating between a BCCG and a BVG/BGS graded card.

[Rickyy]

BVG is fine for their grading...aesthetically I don't like their holders...I rate them behind SGC, PSA and GAI in regards to that aspect.