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  #1  
Old 04-11-2013, 03:30 PM
esquiresports esquiresports is offline
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Default Would you be able to detect a trimmed T206 card that was, as trimmed, properly sized?

I see a lot of questions about how PSA could let the Wagner get by. I understand that PSA holds themselves out as experts in authentication, but they aren't the only experts. There are a lot here on Net54. My question to the experts or otherwise, is do you believe you would be able to detect in virtually all instances trimming on a T206 card done after it left the factory, assuming the trimmed card was the proper size? Put another way, how difficult do you think it would be carry out a trim without it being detected by you? I'm not looking for anyone to give a would-be forger a how-to manual. Just wondering if it's easily detectable by someone who knows what to look for. Thanks!

Last edited by esquiresports; 04-11-2013 at 03:32 PM. Reason: Added specific reference to Wagner and fixed grammar
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  #2  
Old 04-11-2013, 03:53 PM
Cardboard Junkie Cardboard Junkie is offline
David Pierson
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Yes a trimmed t206 is easily detectable. Raw outside a holder there are a myriad of things to look for. See the section on net54 about detecting trimmed t206 cards. That should help. Dave
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  #3  
Old 04-11-2013, 04:20 PM
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Not most of the ones that are in PSA cases - the case makes it very difficult sometimes to determine not only trimming, but also to see scratches and other imperfections.
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  #4  
Old 04-11-2013, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esquiresports View Post
My question to the experts or otherwise
Thanks for opening this up to us non-expert collectors.

The short answer to your question is no...I personally would not be able to tell.

Having said that, I think an expert would be ae to spot a trimmed card, even if it measured properly. There would almost certainly be something different about the edges (and perhaps the corners) when compared to an unaltered example.
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  #5  
Old 04-11-2013, 07:16 PM
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I wouldn't be able to tell unless it was obvious. A company like PSA looking at a card under lights and magnification could probably compare the cut on each edge of the card. I would think a (relatively) fresh cut would be detectable under those conditions.

That is my expert opinion having spent zero days as a card grader.
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  #6  
Old 04-11-2013, 08:51 PM
steve B steve B is offline
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Most trims are obvious. In fact they feel different, someone who was literally blind could be taught to detect them.

It's possible that a trimming done on a factory type papercutter might have the right sort of edge, and that would be a bit more challenging.

Steve B
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  #7  
Old 04-11-2013, 09:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve B View Post
Most trims are obvious. In fact they feel different, someone who was literally blind could be taught to detect them.

It's possible that a trimming done on a factory type papercutter might have the right sort of edge, and that would be a bit more challenging.

Steve B
Steve,

Please know that I agree with what you've said here.

As for the, "factory type papercutter," I have an opinion that I would like to share with the group.

For a T206 card, wouldn't the absence of a slightly rounded edge...on one side...the front, if I am not mistaken, be obvious? I have heard (actually, I have, "read" more often than heard) that they were cut in a way that left a telltale sign to look for when discerning whether a particular example had been trimmed.

Again, I am just trying to learn here. I have read a number of great articles on the subject. By far, the one which was most informative was written by someone whose name was credited as being David Cycleback...though I suspect that is a pseudonym...and might just be a fellow Board Member.

As stated, this is a question for the group, at large...and not aimed at you. Please feel free to ignore my post completely.

However, I would like to know everyone's thoughts on this and look forward to your replies.

Best Regards,

Eric
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  #8  
Old 04-11-2013, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric72 View Post
Thanks for opening this up to us non-expert collectors.

The short answer to your question is no...I personally would not be able to tell.

.
+1 on that.. I've read the old "how to detect trimming" threads multiple times, bought 2 different loups and looked at raw cards (Goudeys and T206) I knew to be trimmed as compared to ones that weren't and still could not tell difinitively. Hoping to one day graduate to "expert" but until then I'll cross my fingers and hope the holdered cards I've pick up are not trimmed.
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  #9  
Old 04-11-2013, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve B View Post
Most trims are obvious. In fact they feel different, someone who was literally blind could be taught to detect them.

It's possible that a trimming done on a factory type papercutter might have the right sort of edge, and that would be a bit more challenging.

Steve B
Sure, once you've taken the card out of the holder. And if you can do it, the TPA's can do it before the card enters the holder

It must have something to do with money. According to research - everybody likes more cash.
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  #10  
Old 04-12-2013, 12:49 AM
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I don't think I could tell if it was really well done, but my eyes are pretty weak these days. I mostly go in for cards in the VG range so not likely to get taken by a card you could shave with.
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  #11  
Old 04-12-2013, 01:43 AM
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glynparson glynparson is offline
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Default Almost all the time

Yes.
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  #12  
Old 04-12-2013, 07:20 AM
steve B steve B is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric72 View Post
Steve,

Please know that I agree with what you've said here.

As for the, "factory type papercutter," I have an opinion that I would like to share with the group.

For a T206 card, wouldn't the absence of a slightly rounded edge...on one side...the front, if I am not mistaken, be obvious? I have heard (actually, I have, "read" more often than heard) that they were cut in a way that left a telltale sign to look for when discerning whether a particular example had been trimmed.

Again, I am just trying to learn here. I have read a number of great articles on the subject. By far, the one which was most informative was written by someone whose name was credited as being David Cycleback...though I suspect that is a pseudonym...and might just be a fellow Board Member.

As stated, this is a question for the group, at large...and not aimed at you. Please feel free to ignore my post completely.

However, I would like to know everyone's thoughts on this and look forward to your replies.

Best Regards,

Eric
Yes, the biggest trait of an original cut is the slight rounding on the front and a corresponding ridge on the back. That's the difference that can be felt, no need for magnifiers or anything special.

That edge is a remnant of the sort of cutter used. And the rounding and ridge can vary depending on how sharp the blade was. Dull blades leave more rounding than sharp ones. To the point where a factory cut won't always pass grading.

But, and here's the catch. Nearly identical cutters are still the standard for most cutting. They've gotten fancier and more powerful, but they still have a clamping plate and a blade pushed through the stack with a bit of sideways motion. Comic backing boards are about the same thickness, and the ones I have have an edge that's exactly like a T206. I'm not positive that a card cut individually would have the same edge, but it's likely. And if the card was cut along with a stack of blank stock the same thickness I'm almost positive it would. Fortunately the cutters aren't cheap. And someone would have to have a friend with access in a place that allowed some experiments. Probably not happening with a common or two, but with a Wagner? As Scott said everyone likes a little more cash.

Steve B
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  #13  
Old 04-12-2013, 07:37 AM
bbcard1 bbcard1 is online now
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I think i could tell after close scrutiny, but I doubt I would look it closely if it were slabbed and if it were sold by a reputable dealer. I have always been gullible.
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  #14  
Old 04-12-2013, 08:51 AM
JollyRoger JollyRoger is offline
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I consider myself fairly knowledgeable when it comes to cards and detecting trimming. I also consider myself a decent handyman around the house, but I know my limits. Sometimes I have to give in and call on the professionals, and of course I expect them to do a good job at what I'm paying them to do. I think a lot of collectors feel that this is where TPGs are falling short.
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  #15  
Old 04-12-2013, 09:51 AM
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rainier2004 rainier2004 is offline
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So do the edges HAVE to be parallel? I had, and resold, a psa 4 card where the sides were not parallel equating to a slightly shorter top edge than bottom. I thought this always meant a trim, no further investigation needed. In this case all 4 corners were worn evenly, the edges all "matched", I was unable to look at the side of the card but everything looked ok and it was only a $100 card...no Wagners here. I thought this always meant it was trimmed as diamond cuts still have parallel edges, just not perpendicular. Am I wrong?
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  #16  
Old 04-12-2013, 10:20 AM
Cardboard Junkie Cardboard Junkie is offline
David Pierson
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Yes, you are wrong. Search net54 "diamond cut" and FKW explains it well.Dave. Looking back I'm not really sure what you are asking. So you might be right....are you refering to a trapezoid shape??

Last edited by Cardboard Junkie; 04-12-2013 at 10:29 AM. Reason: update
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  #17  
Old 04-12-2013, 10:40 AM
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rainier2004 rainier2004 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cardboard Junkie View Post
Yes, you are wrong. Search net54 "diamond cut" and FKW explains it well.Dave. Looking back I'm not really sure what you are asking. So you might be right....are you refering to a trapezoid shape??
Yes, it would meet the definition of a trapezoid with parallel top and bottom edges (with differing lengths) and nonparallel side edges; the card top and bottom right corners were 90 degree angles while the other 2 were not 90's. My understanding of a diamond cut is it still preserves 2 parallel sets of edges and zero 90 degrees corners. No?

I added this crude sketch as my techie skills are poor...my card would have been the one on the left on my idea of a dimond cut of the right with my also crude parallel and right corner symbols applied.
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Last edited by rainier2004; 04-12-2013 at 10:53 AM.
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  #18  
Old 04-12-2013, 10:52 AM
Cardboard Junkie Cardboard Junkie is offline
David Pierson
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Aloha Steve...yup...I think you have the diamond cut definition correct. Not sure if a trapezoid shape can occur at the factory, but I guess anything is possible. The fine points of this hobby can be a mighty sticky wicket at times. Dave
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