1921 American Caramel E121 Rogers Hornsby Different back

[TheVintageCards]

Hi I recently purchased a 1921 American Caramel E121 Rogers Hornsby and the back has the variant ending in the word “eighty”. I checked the past sales and besides the one I’ve purchased, I haven’t seen another sold with this back variation. Curious to see if you have seen this variant with Hornsby?





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[NiceDocter]

It is what is known as a Type 4 back..... definitely rarer but not sure exactly how rare or more valuable. Good catch to find that.... Rocky

[TheVintageCards]

Originally Posted by NiceDocter

It is what is known as a Type 4 back..... definitely rarer but not sure exactly how rare or more valuable. Good catch to find that.... Rocky

Thanks for the info appreciate it.


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[rhettyeakley]

Type 2 back actually.

[NiceDocter]

Man I hate being wrong.... but I think based on all the old Net54 research I could dig up it IS a Type 2 back. However, I originally said it was a Type 4 back based on this data from the 2016 Sports Collectors Digest guide (Edition 6) which I now think mixed up the Type 2 and 4. I would like to hear what other more educated and experienced collectors think..... cool card either way! Rocky

[TheVintageCards]

That’s a nice write up about the cards and differences thanks for sharing.


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[rhettyeakley]

I am the one that named the back types and standardized the types in my article in Old Cardboard many years back that they are referencing in the book. They have some things mixed up.

Nobody has ever referenced reversed backs as Type 2, those are simply “reversed” and the Type 4 back has looks almost identical to Type 1 but the top line on back is not as wide from left to right (really obvious in hand)

[ValKehl]

Rocky, here's the section of Rhett's wonderful 2011 OC Magazine article in which he describes and pictures the 4 different backs found on the E121-80 Am. Caramel cards:

[TheVintageCards]

Amazing information that’s coming, I guess I have to hunt the other 3 Hornsby backs now. Looking through past VCP sales I only saw that most are type 1 and there was 1 sale of a type 3 in 2019. Now I have the information to keep a eye out. If anyone has either a type 1, 3, or 4 I’d love to see some pictures.


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[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by TheVintageCards

Amazing information that’s coming, I guess I have to hunt the other 3 Hornsby backs now. Looking through past VCP sales I only saw that most are type 1 and there was 1 sale of a type 3 in 2019. Now I have the information to keep a eye out. If anyone has either a type 1, 3, or 4 I’d love to see some pictures. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

You may need to hunt for more than 3 additional Hornsby backs, if you also want to have examples of the 2 variations of the 4 back Types. The most common back variation has print that reads from top to bottom ("TTB"). The scarcer back variation has print that reads from bottom to top ("BTT"). I don't think each player is known with all 4 back Types, and I don't know if each back Type comes with both back variations. Rhett is the resident expert re this set, and hopefully he will chime in again. In response to your request for pictures, here are my:
- Type 1 back - Sam Rice cards with both the TTB and BTT variations.
- Type 3 back - WaJo card with the TTB variation.
- Type 4 back - WaJo card with the BTT variation.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by TheVintageCards

Amazing information that’s coming, I guess I have to hunt the other 3 Hornsby backs now. Looking through past VCP sales I only saw that most are type 1 and there was 1 sale of a type 3 in 2019. Now I have the information to keep a eye out. If anyone has either a type 1, 3, or 4 I’d love to see some pictures.


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I have a type 3 Hornsby back, I'll post in the morning. There's also an Outfield/2nd base front variation that hasn't been discussed. Maybe the more knowledgeable members can weigh in on that.

[TheVintageCards]

I guess I have a lot to learn, thanks [mention]ValKehl [/mention] for the pictures crazy to see how many variants of these that are printed, very neat to see the text printed both ways on the back like that on your E.C. Rice. Those Walter Johnsons are beautiful that SGC 5 looks so white! [mention]Casey2296 [/mention] thanks Im looking forward to seeing that type 3 Hornsby. Thanks again for all the responses.


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[Casey2296]

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Type 3 2nd Base on front
_

[rhettyeakley]

Phil, that Hornsby is a Type 1. The Type 3 will have the bottom line in Serif Font, not block letters. Obviously PSA is dumb for calling it a 1922 E121 Series of 120 (as it clearly states “eighty” on back)

They would keep the Serif font at base for the following year’s E121 Series of 120 set.

Also, it should be noted that only a few cards have been found with the Type 4 back and Hornsby is bot among them. Also, i have seen multiple of most of the players with the Type 4 back so it is most likely that the Type 4 back is simply a subset of Type 1 and only affected a few players on a sheet or something.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Phil, that Hornsby is a Type 1. The Type 3 will have the bottom line in Serif Font, not block letters. Obviously PSA is dumb for calling it a 1922 E121 Series of 120 (as it clearly states “eighty” on back)

They would keep the Serif font at base for the following year’s E121 Series of 120 set.

Also, it should be noted that only a few cards have been found with the Type 4 back and Hornsby is bot among them. Also, i have seen multiple of most of the players with the Type 4 back so it is most likely that the Type 4 back is simply a subset of Type 1 and only affected a few players on a sheet or something.

Thanks for the clarification Rhett, hard to keep them straight even with a scorecard. Not PSA's best day when they stabbed this one.

Can you shed any light on the 2B/outfield designation on the front? Was 2B on one Type and Outfield on another?

[rhettyeakley]

Within the E121 Series of 120 set Hornsby can be found as “2.B.” Or “O.F.” On front. The 120 set simply calls all Outfielders “O.F.” Instead of calling them CF, RF, or LF like they did in the 1921 Series of 80.

[rhettyeakley]

I made a video a few years back about the E121 Family of sets. In it I show the different backs described and go over some other info. Worth a watch if anyone has some time.

https://youtu.be/BXDMRpnOUT4

[darwinbulldog]

My type 2