T206 Reference / Reflections.....Tuesday Nite Trivia

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *


HOFers in the AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 NF // DRUM sub-set


Tim Cathey posted a thread in July 2010 which presented that the AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 No Frame (NF) and the DRUM cards were a "matched set". Tim's exact words were:
" If a 350/460 player can be found with an American Beauty 350 No Frame back they should also be found with a Drum back and visa versa. " And, this rule has withstood the
test of time as new DRUM cards have been discovered these past 7 years. The one exception to this rule is Mullin (bat), who has not yet been confirmed with a DRUM back.
I completely expect that the Mullin / DRUM card will eventually surface. Refer to Tim's thread...... Matching set....American Beauty 350 (No Frame) and Drum

Posted in 2015, the following theory regarding the AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (NF) series of 37 subjects is based on my long term experience tracking down these AB 350 cards.
Especially, the Nichols (with bat) card and the Stahl (glove) card. These 2 cards have proven to be considerably tougher to find with the AB 350NF back (and the DRUM back)
than the other 35 guys in this group. My theory suggests this group was printed in a 36-card (12 x 3) format. Nichols was in the initial print runs, while Stahl was not. Nichols
retired April 25, 1910. American Litho replaced him on their 36-card format with Jake Stahl. This theory has been proven by empirical means, and by Pop report data **

Nicholls AB 350NF POP report (SGC + PSA) is 7 cards.
Stahl AB 350NF POP report (SGC + PSA) is 8 cards.
The POP report (SGC + PSA) of any of the remaining 35 subjects in this group averages 14 cards each.

For further info on this subject refer to thread...... Theory regarding AB 350 NF printing


350-only series example
.
350/460 series example



AMERICAN BEAUTY 350NF // DRUM (37 subjects) checklist

Baker
Bender (no trees)
Burch (fielding)
Conroy (bat)
Crawford (bat)
Doolan (bat)
Downey (bat)
Doyle (bat)
Elberfeld (Washington-fielding)
Griffith (bat)
Jennings (two hands)
Johnson (pitching)
Jordan (bat)
Konetchy (glove low)
Lake (St Louis-no ball)
Leifield (bat)
Magee (bat)
Manning (pitching)
McQuillan (bat)
Mullin (with bat) *

Murphy (bat)
Nichols (bat) ..................... initial press runs
Overall (yellow sky)
Pelty (vertical)
Pfeister (throwing)
Reulbach (no glove)
Rucker (throwing)
Seymour (throwing)
Stahl (glove) ..................... replaced Nichols in subsequent press runs
Steinfeldt (bat)
Street (catching)
Sweeney (New York)
Wagner (bat on right shoulder)
Wilhelm (bat)
Willetts
Willis (bat)
Wiltse (pitching)

* NOTE
Mullin (with bat) has yet to be confirmed with DRUM. I feel certain this card will eventually be discovered.


** Note
While I realize POP report data cannot be considered as absolute, I think it's fair to say that the POP data
is representative of the relative availability of certain cards with respect to other cards within that group.

TED Z
.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Posted in 2015, the following theory regarding the AMERICAN BEAUTY 350 (NF) series of 37 subjects is based on my long term experience tracking down these AB 350 cards.
Especially, the Nicholls (with bat) card and the Stahl (glove) card. These 2 cards have proven to be considerably tougher to find with the AB 350NF back (and the DRUM back)
than the other 35 guys in this group. My theory suggests this group was printed in a 36-card (12 x 3) format. Nicholls was in the initial print runs, while Stahl was not. Nicholls
retired April 25, 1910. American Litho replaced him on their 36-card format with Jake Stahl. This theory has been proven by empirical means, and by Pop report data **

Nicholls AB 350NF POP report (SGC + PSA) is 7 cards.
Stahl AB 350NF POP report (SGC + PSA) is 8 cards.
The POP report (SGC + PSA) of any of the remaining 35 subjects in this group averages 14 cards each.

Ted the combined Pops for Nichols and Stahl are:

Nichols 13 (PSA-9 & SGC -4)

Stahl 14 (PSA-7 & SGC-7)

Not trying to shoot your idea down. I just recently wrote an article about this subset and looked at the Pops for all 37 cards, so I remembered that neither of these cards were in the single digits.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by Luke

Ted the combined Pops for Nichols and Stahl are:

Nichols 13 (PSA-9 & SGC -4)

Stahl 14 (PSA-7 & SGC-7)

Not trying to shoot your idea down. I just recently wrote an article about this subset and looked at the Pops for all 37 cards, so I remembered that neither of these cards were in the single digits.

Hi Luke

I just reviewed my records of 2 years ago and the Pop numbers I had posted in my thread did not include the PSA data (although I stated that in that thread).....my bad.

So, the average Pop number for the 35 subjects in the AB 350NF group increases to 19 when PSA + SGC are totaled. Therefore, when we consider your Pop numbers for
Nicholls and Stahl, I say they do support my contention. So. what say you about this ?

Nichols 13 (PSA-9 & SGC -4) See note below

Stahl 14 (PSA-7 & SGC-7)


Note
PSA has 2 distinct AB 350NF listings for Nichols. The listing you didn't cite has only 3 graded. Please explain why you chose the 9 data ? And, what is the difference ?


Thanks,

TED Z
.

[Luke]

Hey Ted,

PSA used the generic "American Beauty" for all ABs regardless of series when they first started noting the backs on the flip. Recently, they got more specific and now they will note "American Beauty 350 no frame" on the flip.

The generic "American Beauty" heading below shows how many total Nichols American Beautys have been graded (9) and the more specific heading below that shows how many have been graded more recently and given the more specific "American Beauty 350 no frame" flip.

If you look at the individual entries in the "AB 350 no frame" listing, you'll see that those 3 cards are also counted as part of the 9 total cards graded under the generic heading.

Since we know that all Nichols ABs are the AB 350nf, we know that all 9 have the same back.

It's the same for Sovereign and Cycle. The Pop reports are not of much value for finding how many Sov150 have been graded if the same pose exists with Sov350. The generic heading will have say 30 listings, and the specific Sov150 and Sov350 listings might only have 2 or 3 each.

Here is my copy. You can see that it is listed in both the generic and the specific headings.

[tedzan]

Hi Luke

Thanks for clarifying the two PSA listings on the same Nichols card.


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *



My 1st adventure into rare F/B combos

I will begin with my 1st set of T206 cards. I started collecting T206's in 1981, when I acquired the Hal Chase card (displayed here) at the Willow Grove Show in Pennsylvania.
I've always been an avid set collector (completed sets of 1887 A & G, 1888 N162, T205, T207, Goudey's, Dia Stars, PlayBall's, Leaf's, Bowman's and 1952 Topps-1987 Topps.
So, this T206 set was not high priority for me. I completed this 521-card set circa 1996. I was smart about buying the Cobb's (and other major stars) in the early 1980's.
The Cobb's were selling for only $20 back then for VgEx to Ex condition. Also, I acquired a MAGIE (Vg) for only $600 (circa 1987).

Furthermore, note the Lundgren / EPDG at the top of this page. I thank Barry Sloate for starting me searching for rare front/back combos with this one in the early 1980's.



.

Anyone want to guess what I paid for this card in 1981 ?


OK guys, that's my initial T206 story......would love to hear your experiences in the quest to (near) complete "The Monster" ?


TED Z
.

[Sean]

I'm guessing you paid $6.That include a premium for the rare Old Mill back.