Payment at card shows?

[AGuinness]

To read some people take the "my way or the highway" approach is disappointing and seems a parallel to the debate these days about players showing emotion on the field, with the old timers lamenting these young whipper snappers.

In the end, for buyers AND sellers, the more options you can offer when it comes to buying (whether as the buyer or seller), the more opportunities there will be for sales.

I'd only hope that sellers would understand that not everybody walks around with large sums of cash, much less medium sums, and that any potential sale could help foster the baseball card community and the passion of a collector.

[ksabet]

Originally Posted by GasHouseGang

You can mock anyone you want, but a lot of dealers have regular jobs, or just deal in the cards for fun on weekends. Having someone bounce a check on you for the best card in your collection could really hurt. Cash is also used at most other types of sales to avoid having to collect sales tax. I've had dealers tell me they would give me a better price if I pay cash.

I wasnt mocking. And I wasnt advocating checks or Paypal or anything, just simply stating that "Cash Only" is a silly, dated practice. And as stated above, we all know the greatest motivation for the "Cash Only" is tax evasion not worry.

[Rich Klein]

I actually had at the last show some customer breathe a sigh of relief when I told him I would take pay pal f and f. He had enough on his to pay but believe it or not, he never thought of Pay pal as an option to pay at a show. Yes, many buyers do believe cash is the only way.

Matt; We'll talk about your CC later.

Rich

[vintagetoppsguy]

There have been a few dealers come forth saying they accept PP at shows. This is just as easy for a buyer to dispute as a credit card charge. If a dealer accepts PP at a show, there is no proof that the merchandise actually exchanged hands. With an eBay order or online order, there is delivery (or signature) confirmation that shows the buyer received the item. In person, at a show, there is no proof that the buyer received the item. All they have to do is file a dispute with PayPal and say they never received it and there is actually no proof that they did. PP F&F is even easier to dispute. All they have to say is that they sent it to the wrong person. If you're a dealer and choose to ignore this, then that's on you. That said, I wouldn't worry about smaller purchases, but I would never take PP or CC at a show for a $6K card.

For buyers that can't understand why some dealers don't take CCs, PP, or other forms of payment, a charge back is a huge hit on a $6K purchase. For the dealer that operates on a 10% profit margin, he has to sell $60K worth of inventory just to break even on that loss. If he operates on a 20% profit margin, he has to sell $30K. And so on, but hopefully you get the point. Why would a dealer make themselves vulnerable like that? Makes no sense. It’s easier just to not take those forms of payment. Are the dealers going to lose some sales? Absolutely. But there will always, always, always be another buyer right behind the other one that’s willing to pay cash.

If you still can't understand it, think of it this way. If you were to lose your wallet, would you rather it contain $6K cash, or a credit card with a $6K available credit limit? Of course you would say the credit card, right? Why? Because you wouldn't be responsible for any fraudulent charges. You would just dispute them. On the other hand if you lose a wallet with $6K cash, you'll likely never see that again. If you understand this simple concept, then how in the world can you blame a dealer for not accepting a $6K credit card charge and leave himself vulnerable to a charge back?

[Laxcat]

As an addition. If you want to haggle price it HAS to be a cash payment.

[packs]

How prevalent do you think charge backs are though? I certainly agree it's a possible issue, but I'm not sure if it's something that happens a lot. I ring my card up all day and I never consider calling my CC company and disputing a charge. I'm sure someone somewhere does, but is it a practical concern?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by packs

How prevalent do you think charge backs are though?

You can probably Google the statistics, but I don't think they're all that common. Maybe 1 in 1000? Who knows? But all it takes is one big one. And like I said, if I were a dealer setting up at shows, I would definitely take credit cards...depending on the size of the purchase. In the case with the OP, definitely not a $6K purchase.

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

If you understand this simple concept, then how in the world can you blame a dealer for not accepting a $6K credit card charge and leave himself vulnerable to a charge back?

I understand this concept, but your argument seems to indicate that the seller should take on all the risk. EVERYONE takes a risk in any transaction, and we all know the inherent risks in collectibles, including forgeries, alterations, etc.

I'd turn your question around... how in the world can you blame a buyer for not wanting to pay with $6,000 in cash and leaving him or herself no recourse if they were to get scammed?

That's not to mention the risk for the seller to be given counterfeit currency. Nothing is foolproof.

Quora.com notes the rate of chargebacks is less than .1 percent for transactions where the card is present. Based on that, making a decision to not process cards at shows for the fear of a chargeback is like not going on a tropical vacation because you're afraid of flying. Ill informed at best.

The larger antagonistic attitude on this issue also hits home how I've felt at some card shops and with some sellers at shows. I'll never be the person with $6k in my pocket or in my checking account to spend at a show, but I would hope that purchases of any level would be welcome and that sellers would want to work with me on making a sale happen. The "my way or the highway" attitude is counterproductive and those sellers could use a reminder that they potentially aren't just turning away one sale, but perhaps repeat business. Sure, you might sell that $6,000 to another willing buyer, but you also might have lost many thousands more by not working with the first one.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by AGuinness

I'd turn your question around... how in the world can you blame a buyer for not wanting to pay with $6,000 in cash and leaving him or herself no recourse if they were to get scammed?

That's not to mention the risk for the seller to be given counterfeit currency. Nothing is foolproof.

How would the buyer get scammed? Don't dealers allow a potential buyer to inspect a card before they buy it? Certainly they do. It's up to the buyer to do their homework before purchasing a card in person.

And counterfeit currency? OK, you're really grasping for straws now. They sell these at Sam's which pretty much eliminates the risk of the seller accepting counterfeit currency...

http://www.samsclub.com/sams/sharpie...prod4960410.ip

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

How would the buyer get scammed? Don't dealers allow a potential buyer to inspect a card before they buy it? Certainly they do. It's up to the buyer to do their homework before purchasing a card in person.

And counterfeit currency? OK, you're really grasping for straws now. They sell these at Sam's which pretty much eliminates the risk of the seller accepting counterfeit currency...

http://www.samsclub.com/sams/sharpie...prod4960410.ip

So you're contending that a buyer has NEVER been scammed at a show before? There has NEVER been an occasion when a dealer scammed someone?

And you're calling my counterfeit currency argument "grasping for straws" when your earlier note about the potential for chargebacks happens less than .1 percent of the time?

Pot, meet kettle!

If by "grasping at straws" you mean I'm looking at something that's such a small percentage of transactions it probably isn't worth worrying about it, I think you're right. And it's exactly the same "grasping at straws" argument that you make when outlining the risk of a chargeback.

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by AGuinness

I understand this concept, but your argument seems to indicate that the seller should take on all the risk. EVERYONE takes a risk in any transaction, and we all know the inherent risks in collectibles, including forgeries, alterations, etc.

I'd turn your question around... how in the world can you blame a buyer for not wanting to pay with $6,000 in cash and leaving him or herself no recourse if they were to get scammed?

That's not to mention the risk for the seller to be given counterfeit currency. Nothing is foolproof.

Quora.com notes the rate of chargebacks is less than .1 percent for transactions where the card is present. Based on that, making a decision to not process cards at shows for the fear of a chargeback is like not going on a tropical vacation because you're afraid of flying. Ill informed at best.

The larger antagonistic attitude on this issue also hits home how I've felt at some card shops and with some sellers at shows. I'll never be the person with $6k in my pocket or in my checking account to spend at a show, but I would hope that purchases of any level would be welcome and that sellers would want to work with me on making a sale happen. The "my way or the highway" attitude is counterproductive and those sellers could use a reminder that they potentially aren't just turning away one sale, but perhaps repeat business. Sure, you might sell that $6,000 to another willing buyer, but you also might have lost many thousands more by not working with the first one.

+1 very well written and 100% agree

[packs]

I agree that dealers can approach the sales portion of their business any way they like and there is no right or wrong way. But when it comes to myself, anyone who doesn't accept cards will lose my business every time.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by AGuinness

So you're contending that a buyer has NEVER been scammed at a show before? There has NEVER been an occasion when a dealer scammed someone?

No, I'm not contending that. Did I say that? No. You want to put words in my mouth, so after this post I am done debating with you.

I inferred it is the buyers responsibility to look over the card(s) before the purchase. Likewise, if a dealer accepts a large sum of cash, he has a responsibility to make sure its not counterfeit.

As far as your ridiculous question goes, yes buyers have been scammed at showx before. It happened to one of our board members and the dealer was Gizmo's Sportscards. IIRC, the buyer made a very large purchase at a show and later realized the cards had been altered (trimmed I believe). But the buyer took full responsibility for not examining the cards closer. He still outed the dealer (as he should have) to make future buyers beware.

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

No, I'm not contending that. Did I say that? No. You want to put words in my mouth, so after this post I am done debating with you.

I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm trying to get you to clarify your argument.

I'm eager to dispense with the hostile tone, so lets be done.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by packs

I agree that dealers can approach the sales portion of their business any way they like and there is no right or wrong way. But when it comes to myself, anyone who doesn't accept cards will lose my business every time.

Dont you think you get a better deal paying with cash?

[packs]

Maybe. I like going to shows because I don't get to be around people into cards very often. So it's a good time for me just walking around and checking stuff out, dropping off cards for grading. But because I don't actually buy something that often I don't take a lot of cash with me. I am a serious buyer though if I find that item. It would be with my debit card though.

[vintagetoppsguy]

I'm really surprised we haven't heard from more dealers on this issue. Perhaps they just don't want to speak up. I did find this old thread...

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...rd+charge+back

It does happen.

And to clear up some misinformation posted earlier, yes the charge back rate is less than .1 percent. However on purchases over $2500, the charge back rate jumps to nearly 3.5%. How convenient that was left out. And I bet if more research wete conducted, it would show that charge back percentages are even higher at hobby/trade shows.

[CurtisFlood]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

I take cash checks and pay pal. In fact, at my shows, since I usually have cash from the dealers I will accept checks (made out to my partner in the show no less) to cash for those dealers who don't accept anything but cash or for those collectors ho do not bring enough cash. The hotel does not have an ATM so I offer that to make everyone lives easier.

Granted, we're s show that is between 30-60 tables depending on circumstances but with 3 exceptions (one of which is Leon). the dealers are weekend warriors who work for a living

Rich

That is very nice of you Rich, not all promoters really give that much help to their table holders.

[CurtisFlood]

Originally Posted by Justus

If anyone has read my post as a complaint against the dealer, it was not meant that way. He can do his business in whatever fashion he desires. I simply am interested in what is the norm and I appreciate the replies.

In his defense, the dealer DID tell me he could do paypal "friends and family" when he got back home and would mail me the card, so he was trying to find a way for it to work. I've certainly paid that way for lots of cards but none of this value, so it was my choice to thank him and decline.

No, I don't expect a dealer to bend over backwards for a buyer but, as someone mentions...the dealers are the ones there to sell their stock. If it is credit card fees they are worried about, I would think a dealer would just roll that overhead cost into the price of the card. That's what most online dealers do.

As a side question...If plastic is used as a debit card, are there any fees to the dealer?

As far as chargebacks...I don't know what to think about that aspect. Maybe the in-person collectibles market runs on cash (I'm finding out now) but most of the rest of the world and online-world runs on credit cards. It's just a cost of doing business.

Again, thanks for all the comments!

Stolen credit cards are always a possible problem. The dealer would be responsible for the charges in some cases. I know a business that took almost $30K on a stolen credit card. They had to eat the loss and lost their inventory as well. Double whammy.

[AGuinness]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I'm really surprised we haven't heard from more dealers on this issue. Perhaps they just don't want to speak up. I did find this old thread...

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...rd+charge+back

It does happen.

And to clear up some misinformation posted earlier, yes the charge back rate is less than .1 percent. However on purchases over $2500, the charge back rate jumps to nearly 3.5%. How convenient that was left out. And I bet if more research wete conducted, it would show that charge back percentages are even higher at hobby/trade shows.

Apparently things are not left well enough alone.

Lets clear up the real misinformation, as I posted:

Originally Posted by AGuinness

Quora.com notes the rate of chargebacks is less than .1 percent for transactions where the card is present.

This information came from this page:
https://www.quora.com/Online-Payment...rate-in-the-US

Vintagetoppsguy apparently found this page, which includes this nugget:
"Amount over $2400-$2500 mark suddenly experiences a surge and it is almost 3.0% to 3.5%"

But Vintagetoppsguy either didn't read the page or is purposefully being deceptive because that nugget follows this clarification:

"For Card Not Present Transactions: The chargeback rate is very interesting:"

That is: For transactions without credit cards, chargeback rates are between 3 and 3.5 percent.

I quoted for when credit cards ARE present, which is clearly what we are talking about when it comes to purchasing cards and memorabilia at shows. The higher percentage is when cards are not present, such as eBay, etc.

I'm happy to keep an informed and respectful conversation going, but describing the information I posted earlier about chargeback rates as "misinformation" is either an egregious mistake where Vintagetoppsguy failed to comprehend the web page or an accusation intended solely to deceive.

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

How convenient that was left out.

Yes, how convenient that I left out statistics that were immaterial to the conversation so you can take them out of context.

[Cozumeleno]

I see both sides of it and I think any dealer has the right to accept/deny any payment method they want. If I were a dealer, I'm not sure I'd want to accept a card payment on a $6K item and as a buyer, there's no way I'd show up to a card show with $6K in cash, either.

To lessen the rate of chargebacks, couldn't dealers simply either have buyers using credit cards sign the credit card receipt that machines use, OR in the event of Paypal being used, sign a receipt where both get a copy to provide documentation of cards being exchanged? And I'm not sure how ironclad it would be when it comes to chargebacks, but the language 'All sales final' could be added to the receipt.

That (like anything else) wouldn't get rid of chargebacks entirely, but wouldn't it help a great deal?

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

How would the buyer get scammed? Don't dealers allow a potential buyer to inspect a card before they buy it? Certainly they do. It's up to the buyer to do their homework before purchasing a card in person.



And counterfeit currency? OK, you're really grasping for straws now. They sell these at Sam's which pretty much eliminates the risk of the seller accepting counterfeit currency...



http://www.samsclub.com/sams/sharpie...prod4960410.ip

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/may...-counterfeit14

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/may...-counterfeit14

Interesting. From the article..."Authorities say the hair product is commonly used to coat fake bills to block the counterfeit-detecting pens used by merchants."

However, if I were a dealer at a show selling a $6K card, I would worry less about counterfeit currency than I would a credit card charge back. That't just my opinion.

[edhans]

I'm a little offended by the suggestion that all show dealers who accept only cash, do so to avoid paying income and sales taxes. I report my sales and income and pay my taxes. I know many dealers do the same. I choose not to accept electronic payments, in part because of the costs, but primarily for the potential chargeback problems. I have a regular job and don't have the time to fight with a credit card company over a chargeback, justified or not. And since I don't put food on my table by selling cards, I would much rather walk away from a sale than take an electronic payment and hope the customer doesn't get buyers remorse.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Thanks, Ed, for your perspective as a dealer and for bringing back some common sense to this thread.

[Michael B]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I would hope that those dealers that are paying income tax are only required to do so on the profit of the sale, not the entire transaction. If the mentioned $1,000 card was purchased for say 800, taxes should only be required on the 200 difference.

It would be less than that. You would get the itemized deductions for the cost of the item, cost of the table/booth, travel to the show including gas and tolls, hotel, food and any other ancillary expenses. It is easy to reduce the net profit by taking every deduction allowed. Most dealers are cash flow businesses. With cash flow you get the deduction when you sell the item. You cannot deduct the cost of the item purchased if it is done in a prior year. Don't forget, the I.R.S. encourages tax avoidance. It is tax evasion they don't like.

I have done one or two shows a year max and usually made just a little. At the same time I was also selling on ebay and did declare ALL of the income every year. It is easier to do that than try to play fast and loose.