Do you care about the authenticity guaranty provided by grading companies?

[Balticfox]

This subject came up in another thread:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I guarantee (haha) you the vast majority of buyers don't even know about the guarantee and if they do they don't care.

So as a buyer do you care about the authenticity "guaranty" that PSA and other grading companies provide?

[bnorth]

I voted NO because they do their best to not honor it so for the most part it is almost worthless anyway. Plus in the real world I have noticed there is a WAY bigger chance of a graded card being altered than a raw one being altered. There is a WAY bigger reward for getting an altered card into a slab than altering one to keep raw.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I voted NO because they do their best to not honor it so for the most part it is almost worthless anyway.

While I agree that the grading companies do everything possible not to honour their guaranties, I think their business was built on these sham guarantees. Why else would collectors/dealers have started submitting their cards en masse?

Originally Posted by bnorth

Plus in the real world I have noticed there is a WAY bigger chance of a graded card being altered than a raw one being altered. There is a WAY bigger reward for getting an altered card into a slab than altering one to keep raw.

I believe it. That's certainly the way it seems. After all, why bother doctoring a card that isn't going to sell for nosebleed prices?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

While I agree that the grading companies do everything possible not to honour their guaranties, I think their business was built on these sham guarantees. Why else would collectors/dealers have started submitting their cards en masse?



I believe it. That's certainly the way it seems. After all, why bother doctoring a card that isn't going to sell for nosebleed prices?

I have been collecting for longer than the grading companies have been around. I personally don't know a single person who bought a graded card because of the guarantee. At least no one has ever said I bought it because of the guarantee. Every single graded card was purchased because graded cards are worth more money. Funniest part is most collectors don't get how grading really works when it comes to value. Even funnier is many that constantly complain about grading companies only collect graded cards from the company they constantly complain about.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I personally don't know a single person who bought a graded card because of the guarantee. At least no one has ever said I bought it because of the guarantee. Every single graded card was purchased because graded cards are worth more money.

Yes, but that's begging the question. Why do slabbed cards fetch more money? That phenomenon had to start because buyers were happy to get a card guaranteed by an "expert" third-party. This made the buyers confident that they were getting the real thing and they were happy to pay to get this confidence. The phenomenon then snowballed. But what got the snowball rolling for the higher prices fetched was the guaranty.

Originally Posted by bnorth

Funniest part is most collectors don't get how grading really works when it comes to value. Even funnier is many that constantly complain about grading companies only collect graded cards from the company they constantly complain about.

A certain Vulcan would describe such behaviour as "Illogical".

[butchie_t]

I don't because if I am buying a slabbed card, I typically free the card from the tomb and place it in a binder with the rest of his friends.

Even when I get some slabbed, which is so very infrequent and in the past, they were modern cards and I was moving them to buy other cards anyway.

Now that PSA has sucked up SGC, I am reasonably sure I won't be getting any cards slabbed moving forward. I do have autographed cards but I send them to CAS to get authenticated and placed in a holder. That is about it for me.

Butch

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by butchie_t

I don't because if I am buying a slabbed card, I typically free the card from the tomb and place it in a binder with the rest of his friends.

Completed: 1969 - 2000 Topps Baseball Sets and Traded Sets

Good man! That's what I like to hear.

[Leon]

This thread was moved from the watercooler section to get some more votes, plus it definitely fits into pre-war as well as other niches...
.

[Johnny630]

Nope because once in a holder it's liquid gold....card doesn't matter it's the label.

[Zach Wheat]

I voted no as I generally collect sets I am familiar with...and the guaranty does not provide much value to me. The bigger issue for me is "micro-trimming" as I generally buy ungraded cards. That is a more significant issue

[parkplace33]

What are the specific guarantees of each grading card company?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

What are the specific guarantees of each grading card company?

They guarantee to take your money. Nothing else is guaranteed.
.

[BigfootIsReal]

You can stick my head up a bull's ass, but I'd rather take your word for it.

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I have been collecting for longer than the grading companies have been around. I personally don't know a single person who bought a graded card because of the guarantee. At least no one has ever said I bought it because of the guarantee. Every single graded card was purchased because graded cards are worth more money. Funniest part is most collectors don't get how grading really works when it comes to value. Even funnier is many that constantly complain about grading companies only collect graded cards from the company they constantly complain about.

None of it makes any sense, does it? I constantly like to stress to people the importance of becoming your own authority, but we're too late in the game for it to matter. TPG this, TPA that. Ugh.

[ALR-bishop]

I have bought two cards that went through this process. One was a rare graded Topps 1955 Hocus Focus card. I was not worried about the authentcity of the item and did not care at all about the garde. Since I have the 55 Hocus Focus set minus one "common" I am sure I have handled more 55 Hocus Focus cards than whoever authenticated it.

The other was an ungraded variant of a major Topps 1955 card. I was not worried about authenticity but seller was required to send it. Got notice of sending, receipt and resending, Ironically although ungraded it came to me in a sealed holder with authenticity sticker. Since it fit in a larger pocket page that would fit in my binder with my ungraded set( 4 pocket), I kept it that way.

Not sure what additional risk is involved in addional handling and mailing after the sale. The time delay was not an issue for me but I guess could be in some cases

[jingram058]

I voted NO because I am not involved in any way with card grading...I don't have any, don't want any, don't care if they increase the value, don't care if my cards are trimmed, doctored, or fake. It's just not my thing.

[jchcollins]

What company if any besides PSA still provides an actual guarantee? I think for the vast majority of the other graders it's a moot point.

PSA if you sub for a review and they decide your vintage 8 is actually a 6 - they will pay you out the market difference (or perhaps try to buy you off with coupons and free subs...) but at least it's something.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

What company if any besides PSA still provides an actual guarantee? I think for the vast majority of the other graders it's a moot point.

PSA if you sub for a review and they decide your vintage 8 is actually a 6 - they will pay you out the market difference (or perhaps try to buy you off with coupons and free subs...) but at least it's something.

Certainly not the beloved SGC (I mean S_C), heavily favored by this Board, which goes to show it's irrelevant.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Certainly not the beloved SGC (I mean S_C), heavily favored by this Board, which goes to show it's irrelevant.

This goes back to my post earlier. What guarantees are these card companies actually saying or providing?

The only successful time I have seen someone work the guarantee was board members Raulus about his PSA 54 Mays. And if I remember correctly , that took multiple contacts and a long time to get resolved.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

This goes back to my post earlier. What guarantees are these card companies actually saying or providing?

The only successful time I have seen someone work the guarantee was board members Raulus about his PSA 54 Mays. And if I remember correctly , that took multiple contacts and a long time to get resolved.

AJ was shot down on the Leaf Jackie that BODA had clearly and obviously identified as trimmed.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

AJ was shot down on the Leaf Jackie that BODA had clearly and obviously identified as trimmed.

I remember that one as well.

Anyone ever get a grading company to refund if they graded a reprint card as original?

[jchcollins]

Yes, ironically SGC is the only one with "Guarantee" actually in their name. I think they had something on paper back in the 90's and early 2000's, but Peter is right - it's long gone now.

I voted that it's not important to me either. Slabs are for the most part nice holders that come with an opinion. They sell for more because of the opinion, but people need to realize how much it's really just an opinion, and not the end-all, be-all pronouncement of your card's worth forevermore.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Leon

They guarantee to take your money. Nothing else is guaranteed.

:lol:

[Johnny630]

Grading love it or hate it has all made us more wealthy over the years...in my opinion it's what brought the big time investor's and spenders into this Hobby.

Guaranty or Not is theoretically meaningless once it's in a holder.

Pop and Registry are universally known by all the buyers/investors.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Yes, ironically SGC is the only one with "Guarantee" actually in their name. I think they had something on paper back in the 90's and early 2000's, but Peter is right - it's long gone now.

I voted that it's not important to me either. Slabs are for the most part nice holders that come with an opinion. They sell for more because of the opinion, but people need to realize how much it's really just an opinion, and not the end-all, be-all pronouncement of your card's worth forevermore.

It was on the website until the early days of the "Scandal" when they took it down and it never reappeared. Although I'm still waiting, I asked Peter Steinberg about it when it was taken down (2020 probably) and he said they had only taken it down to tweak the language and it would be back up within days.

[G1911]

Hopefully the Sportscard Guaranty Corporation is better at certifying real cards than they were at autographs since they have no guaranty whatsoever (if you call a place a democratic peoples republic, then it is one right?).

My selective experience cracking cards out of slabs is that none of the firms are good at detecting alterations or trimming in the area I collect, rarely certifying an outright fake though (the Dover CJ Mack being the funniest example to me). SGC's grading seems the most random to me - I once discovered a Red Sun I freed from a 3.5 SGC slab had no less than 14 distinct creases in the stock. BCCG was the scammiest of the 'respected' firms grading.

I understand slabbing a card one is about to sell because $$$, but I will never get it for any other purpose.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think it's just called SGC now, they no longer use the full name which would be inaccurate.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It was on the website until the early days of the "Scandal" when they took it down and it never reappeared. Although I'm still waiting, I asked Peter Steinberg about it when it was taken down (2020 probably) and he said they had only taken it down to tweak the language and it would be back up within days.

Interesting. It was up for longer than I thought, then. One would think that now that SGC is under the parent of Collectors, they might extend the same guarantee as PSA has. But that might be wishful thinking.

Back to the overall of this entire subject - I'd be interested to know how many hardcore vintage collectors now are subbing for review their slabs from the 90's and early 2000's, with a lot of cards that would be 3's today in 5 holders. And if so, is PSA downgrading them appropriately and paying them out? We don't seem to hear a ton of stories like that. I know people love to reholder and make old certs that start with 0's look fresh again in the Lighthouse holders - but when people do this are they taking advantage of the guarantee?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think it's just called SGC now, they no longer use the full name which would be inaccurate.

I know they abandoned the full name in their marketing and customer facing materials, but we all know exactly what it stands for and the business was registered as and acknowledged for many years.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Interesting. It was up for longer than I thought, then. One would think that now that SGC is under the parent of Collectors, they might extend the same guarantee as PSA has. But that might be wishful thinking.

Back to the overall of this entire subject - I'd be interested to know how many hardcore vintage collectors now are subbing for review their slabs from the 90's and early 2000's, with a lot of cards that would be 3's today in 5 holders. And if so, is PSA downgrading them appropriately and paying them out? We don't seem to hear a ton of stories like that. I know people love to reholder and make old certs that start with 0's look fresh again in the Lighthouse holders - but when people do this are they taking advantage of the guarantee?

I know of at least two recent examples where the cards were downgraded. Not in review but just to reholder. And there was no damage to the slabs.

I would be wary when thinking about reholdering (especially older slabs or overgraded cards). 99 percent of the time its fine, but why chance it?

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

I know of at least two recent examples where the cards were downgraded. Not in review but just to reholder. And there was no damage to the slabs.

I would be wary when thinking about reholdering (especially older slabs or overgraded cards). 99 percent of the time its fine, but why chance it?

I've heard the same stories about our friends at PSA. If they bump your grade on a straight reholder, they need to be paying out under the guarantee. That's BS.

A few years ago I sent an ancient slab back to SGC for a reholder; a '61 Mantle #300 in a 5.5. I looked up the cert on their website and it had been graded more than 20 years ago. All things considered I still agreed with the grade, but you never know, right?

They reholdered it a 5.5 with no questions asked and had it back to me in about 2 weeks. I wonder if PSA would have done the same.

Interestingly enough, from back when Beckett briefly did subgrades for vintage - I have a really nice '69 Reggie RC in a 4.5. When I went to lookup the cert recently, it was nowhere to be found - did not exist in their database. More out of pure curiosity than anything else, I called up Beckett. Their line was that the slab was "so old" (it was from probably 2002 to '05...) that the standards were different, and they could not stand behind the slab. I said ok, well - that makes sense. So if I send this back to you, you'll regrade it and get it back to me for free, right? Nope. They wanted me to do the entire thing on my dime. Uh, no thanks. If I wanted it in a different holder, I'd pay $15 to SGC and have it back in a matter of days. As is I like the BVG subgrades, and the holder it's in - despite the apparent age - is in really good shape, so I'm just going to leave it like that, LOL. In it's "invalid" holder...

[Johnny630]

If you have a big card that looks less than what say a 8 would grade now vs then I wouldn’t roll the dice let it be….if your not happy with your card move it through and auction house and be done. If you’re happy leave it as is and rest easy.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by parkplace33

I remember that one as well.

Anyone ever get a grading company to refund if they graded a reprint card as original?

For the PSA guarantee, my understanding is there is a carve out if the card is obviously mislabeled and the card is clearly a reprint.

I did have a card (not a reprint) that was in a PSA slab that was subsequently identified as doctored. I purchased it in the slab and did not submit it myself. It took a little persistence, but in the end, PSA paid out on the guarantee, in a significant amount. Most of the story is floating around here in a thread, although I’m too lazy to track it down and link it here.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

For the PSA guarantee, my understanding is there is a carve out if the card is obviously mislabeled and the card is clearly a reprint.

I did have a card (not a reprint) that was in a PSA slab that was subsequently identified as doctored. I purchased it in the slab and did not submit it myself. It took a little persistence, but in the end, PSA paid out on the guarantee, in a significant amount. Most of the story is floating around here in a thread, although I’m too lazy to track it down and link it here.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=349163

Took five seconds, searched in your profile for threads you had started. LOL. Lazy indeed.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=349163

Took five seconds, searched in your profile for threads you had started. LOL. Lazy indeed.

Pretty much. I didn’t mention it before, but I figured some eager beaver would be willing to put in all that effort for me. And my laziness was rewarded!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

Pretty much. I didn’t mention it before, but I figured some eager beaver would be willing to put in all that effort for me. And my laziness was rewarded!

OK, maybe it was four seconds LOL.

[Leon]

I voted "sort of" but I should have voted "no".
.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Leon

I voted "sort of" but I should have voted "no".
.

Curious whether your "no" is because you don't buy graded cards, you're confident in your personal ability to grade and authenticate without an assist from the TPG, or for some other reason?

[Matt74]

No, I don't think it means much. However, I do think it has become a necessary evil in this age of ecommerce, from the authentication standpoint. The grades themselves can be a handy reference for price point, but they are way too subjective. From the little over a handful of slabs that I do have, I have a bunch with the same grade that are not even close to the same condition (if it matters, my "newest" slab is a 1941). There is supposed to be a set standard, and clearly, there is not.

[Casey2296]

I voted no, and is the reason I buy pre-war graded 4 or less, and post war 7 or less. Limits all the shenanigans a bit.

[Johnphotoman]

I do see some value in baseball cards and the like, but not in Baseball photos, or old photo grading, the system is all wrong. Not worth the time.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by raulus

Curious whether your "no" is because you don't buy graded cards, you're confident in your personal ability to grade and authenticate without an assist from the TPG, or for some other reason?

Because the TPG's have basically said they aren't responsible for what they do, in their respective rules.

That, and I think I know more about the stuff I collect than most of the graders do. (I should, I do it more than most of them do.)
.
And a type card that they probably know very little about (nor should they, really)

[Golfcollector]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I voted NO because they do their best to not honor it so for the most part it is almost worthless anyway. Plus in the real world I have noticed there is a WAY bigger chance of a graded card being altered than a raw one being altered. There is a WAY bigger reward for getting an altered card into a slab than altering one to keep raw.

This +1

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Zach Wheat

The bigger issue for me is "micro-trimming" as I generally buy ungraded cards. That is a more significant issue

I'm with you on that point. Although I'm wondering whether it's worthwhile for scammers to micro trim or otherwise doctor a card that's not going to sell for over $500 anyway.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

This subject came up in another thread:

So as a buyer do you care about the authenticity "guaranty" that PSA and other grading companies provide?

Does it mean anything at all? Doesn't the weasel wording used protect the TPGs from any type of liability?

[glchen]

I voted yes because I've actually received compensation from both Beckett and SGC in the past. (I think someone told me that one of these no longer reimburses anymore.) I've never tried PSA.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by glchen

I voted yes because I've actually received compensation from both Beckett and SGC in the past. (I think someone told me that one of these no longer reimburses anymore.) I've never tried PSA.

My understanding is that SGC dropped their guarantee a few years ago.

PSA did spot me a 5-figure check when they failed to identify some Moser doctoring on one of my cards that was subsequently outed by the BDA. Although it took some doing, as they initially denied my request for compensation, and only after some follow-up from me they recognized their error.