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  #1  
Old 09-26-2022, 04:58 PM
Aj-hman Aj-hman is offline
Aaron
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Default Wash "like" Trading in sports cards

Wash trading is the manipulation of a regulated marketplace and banned in 1936 for the US stock exchange as cited in an NPR story. It was also recently reported by Forbs that "More Than Half Of All Bitcoin Trades Are Fake." This report got me thinking about cards I've been keeping a log of regarding recent eBay sales. The cards are tracked by their serial numbers and seller ID in order to keep an accurate record. When I'd ask the seller about the relisted card, I'd get the classic refrain that it was a "non-paying" bidder... up to 3 times?! It made me think that the sales were not legitimate in an effort to manipulate the market place.

Do you believe wash "like" trading is a significant issue in sports cards markets?

https://www.npr.org/2022/09/23/11246...g-crypto-fraud
ttps://www.forbes.com/sites/shehanchandrasekera/2021/09/13/cryptocurrency-may-soon-be-subject-to-wash-sale-rules/?sh=1418e83d59d3
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  #2  
Old 09-26-2022, 05:29 PM
sb1 sb1 is offline
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If you are talking about "wash" sales to take a loss and then rebuy the like asset, unlikely as there are no "losses" captured when selling a "collectable". However, if one ventures down the "investor" path they might give it a try, time will tell how they fare upon scrutiny.

Last edited by sb1; 09-26-2022 at 05:42 PM.
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  #3  
Old 09-26-2022, 08:36 PM
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swarmee swarmee is offline
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There are definitely fake sales recorded on ebay and other sites, mainly because it's so easy and there's almost no recourse. If PSA required KYC on every account and limited accounts to 1 per person, it would drop to a reasonable amount, but those are bad for the bottom line.

How many of the PWCC eBay sales were bought and traded, just to set the market? When they permitted you being able to use future consignments towards your purchase, they all but encouraged it.

And eBay's misreporting of sales (and hiding of accurate BIN/BO sales prices) could be considered fraudulent. Consider this example, from a couple of years ago. A seller had 5 or 6 1990 Topps PSA 8 partial blackless cards listed on eBay for $4700 each. The buyer, who revealed this on CU/PSA message boards, said that he purchased them each for $800-1000 by sending an interest email to the seller, then the seller counteroffered with those prices. When the sale completed, it still showed $4,700 each on PSA's APR tool. I pointed it out to them at the time; not sure if they've fixed or deleted those records. Not sure what Terapeak said, or whether worthpoint, 130point, etc were pulling the correct number either.

Also, people nearly never pay attention to sales prices of auctions, that aren't paid for. Once the price has been recorded, it gets repeated into truth.
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PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head
PSA: Regularly Get Cheated
BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern
SGC: Closed auto authentication business
JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC
Oh, what a difference a year makes.
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  #4  
Old 09-27-2022, 12:17 PM
steve B steve B is offline
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There was an E-Topps "seller" who listed large numbers of them often as a lot, and a very low prices. But only allowed pre approved bidders.
I asked about how to get approved, and never got a response.

I suspect they singlehandedly tanked the prices for the entire program.
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  #5  
Old 09-27-2022, 01:25 PM
Zach Wheat Zach Wheat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swarmee View Post
There are definitely fake sales recorded on ebay and other sites, mainly because it's so easy and there's almost no recourse. If PSA required KYC on every account and limited accounts to 1 per person, it would drop to a reasonable amount, but those are bad for the bottom line.

How many of the PWCC eBay sales were bought and traded, just to set the market? When they permitted you being able to use future consignments towards your purchase, they all but encouraged it.

And eBay's misreporting of sales (and hiding of accurate BIN/BO sales prices) could be considered fraudulent. Consider this example, from a couple of years ago. A seller had 5 or 6 1990 Topps PSA 8 partial blackless cards listed on eBay for $4700 each. The buyer, who revealed this on CU/PSA message boards, said that he purchased them each for $800-1000 by sending an interest email to the seller, then the seller counteroffered with those prices. When the sale completed, it still showed $4,700 each on PSA's APR tool. I pointed it out to them at the time; not sure if they've fixed or deleted those records. Not sure what Terapeak said, or whether worthpoint, 130point, etc were pulling the correct number either.

Also, people nearly never pay attention to sales prices of auctions, that aren't paid for. Once the price has been recorded, it gets repeated into truth.
All good points John. Agree with you
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  #6  
Old 09-27-2022, 01:40 PM
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mrreality68 mrreality68 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zach Wheat View Post
All good points John. Agree with you
well said and I agree
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  #7  
Old 09-27-2022, 04:28 PM
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Exhibitman Exhibitman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swarmee View Post
If PSA required KYC on every account and limited accounts to 1 per person, it would drop to a reasonable amount, but those are bad for the bottom line.
Did you mean eBay?
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  #8  
Old 09-27-2022, 09:06 PM
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swarmee swarmee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exhibitman View Post
Did you mean eBay?
Yep, meant eBay.
__________________
--
PWCC: The Fish Stinks From the Head
PSA: Regularly Get Cheated
BGS: Can't detect trimming on modern
SGC: Closed auto authentication business
JSA: Approved same T206 Autos before SGC
Oh, what a difference a year makes.
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  #9  
Old 09-27-2022, 09:14 PM
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Casey2296 Casey2296 is online now
Is Mudville so bad?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swarmee View Post
There are definitely fake sales recorded on ebay and other sites, mainly because it's so easy and there's almost no recourse. If PSA required KYC on every account and limited accounts to 1 per person, it would drop to a reasonable amount, but those are bad for the bottom line.

How many of the PWCC eBay sales were bought and traded, just to set the market? When they permitted you being able to use future consignments towards your purchase, they all but encouraged it.

And eBay's misreporting of sales (and hiding of accurate BIN/BO sales prices) could be considered fraudulent. Consider this example, from a couple of years ago. A seller had 5 or 6 1990 Topps PSA 8 partial blackless cards listed on eBay for $4700 each. The buyer, who revealed this on CU/PSA message boards, said that he purchased them each for $800-1000 by sending an interest email to the seller, then the seller counteroffered with those prices. When the sale completed, it still showed $4,700 each on PSA's APR tool. I pointed it out to them at the time; not sure if they've fixed or deleted those records. Not sure what Terapeak said, or whether worthpoint, 130point, etc were pulling the correct number either.

Also, people nearly never pay attention to sales prices of auctions, that aren't paid for. Once the price has been recorded, it gets repeated into truth.
Good points John,
I tend to rely on AH sales more than anything, sans PWCC of course, but even then there can be big honest price swings based on a couple of collections chasing the same card so even that needs to be discounted.
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