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  #1  
Old 12-26-2023, 11:31 PM
G1911 G1911 is online now
Gr.eg McCl.@y
 
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Default N566 Newsboy Pugilists and their variations

I don't want to present myself as any kind of expert of here, but it seems all previous efforts have amounted to 'there are different variations and several factors' and left it there. I'd like to dive a little deeper here and document them all, as I'm doing for pretty much all the 1887-1912 stuff. This is thus, like usual, both a request for help either publicly or privately showing other examples and a data dump of some of my research for anyone who isn't bored of this stuff yet.

I'm going to take it one card at a time so as to not dump 20 images into one post. Basic checklist:

Group 1:
#23 J.J. Corbett (portrait 1)
#72 J.J. Corbett (fighting pose, less common is portrait 1's photo)
#73 Peter Jackson (2 slightly different fighting poses)

Group 2 (301-390):
#347 J.J. Corbett (portrait 2, green type)

Group 3:
#966 Bob Fitzsimmons
#1068 John L. Sullivan (fighting pose)

Other ? [DEBUNKED]
Composite Checklist w/ Sullivan portrait

The group 1 cards are more commonly found than the other groups, in and out of boxing. Within that group some cards are less common. I don't believe this set is really as complex as it is sometimes made out to be and that every 'possible' version actually exists in each group - some differences are linked together rather than generally found on every version. I am also confident there is much I do not know (hint hint!)

Last edited by G1911; 12-30-2023 at 03:01 PM.
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  #2  
Old 12-26-2023, 11:49 PM
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First up, the first of two Corbett portraits. Strictly speaking this is not a 'boxing card', the Newsboy issue had a handful of famous people in it from other professions but the focus was very much on actresses and actors. Corbett is almost certainly included here for his stage career, unlike his fighting stance #72 card.

This portrait is less common than his fighting card. I suspect the amount of possible combinations for it is smaller than for Corbett fighting pose or Peter Jackson.

Key differences in group 1 are that 1) multiple photos of a subject could be found for the same number, 2) the font used for the Newsboy, number and name, and city, 3) the presence of the subjects name on the card itself, and/or on the albumen photo or non-existent, and 4) the same for the card number as for the name.

Here are the three different examples of this pose I have been able to find. Most are #23. Note the two different fonts on the two #23's. One is bolder and thicker. It is said the font differences mix but I suspect there are only two of them at this time, as the pattern holds consistent. The thicker one, with the straighter "y" in Newsboy, also has the thicker city name, a thicker frame line, and as will be seen on other subjects the consistently thicker name and number font. I think there are 2 mounts for this group. I have arbitrarily termed the thicker one font 1 and the thinner one with the curvier "y" in Newsboy as font 2.

Both have the name and number on the Albumen photograph.

The font 2 card shows a hint of the subjects name and number, mostly hidden by the photograph. This is something of a problem for cataloguing, as some cards have the photo pasted down far enough to possibly cover up the name and number, and others were clearly printed with no name or number on the card. These cards were essentially handmade, with the photos pasted onto the card mount and not always very carefully. We can also see they are cropped differently; however this is not a variation. It's just because the albumen photos were handcut to the vaguely right size and then stuck onto the mount.

The third copy is the same photograph, font 2, with name on card, number on card and on photo. Note the name is absent from the albumen photo this time. However, the number is 72, and placed in a different spot within the photograph. The #72 version of this portrait is definitely less common, I haven't seen many of them. There are probably at least 1 other variation of this #72 Corbett Portrait involving the font or the captioning.

Note the photos themselves are rounded; these #23's were produced with Group 3.

Last edited by G1911; 12-27-2023 at 12:39 AM.
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  #3  
Old 12-27-2023, 12:00 AM
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Next up, Corbett's boxing pose. This is always found as #72 or less commonly sans a number at all. I suspect a couple combinations are missing and that there is at least one more font 1 version.

We have:
1 - Font 2, name on photo, with no number. The number is too far to the left to be covered up by the photo, so this one was printed without the number.

2 - Font 2, no name or number on photo, both name and number on the card.

3 - Font 2, number on photo, number and name on card.

4 - Font 1, no number, name on photo.

5 - And finally, we have the Campbell version using the same setup as the Newsboys. The Campbell cards are said to be scarcer than the Newsboys, though I strongly think this actually varies by the subject with some of them actually easier in the Campbell variety. Corbett is not one of those subjects, Campbell is rare on him. This one has the name in the photo, nothing on the stock. I am not sure we will find variance on this one. The Campbell was produced with group 3.

Last edited by G1911; 12-27-2023 at 12:40 AM.
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  #4  
Old 12-27-2023, 12:09 AM
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#73 Peter Jackson comes in two poses again. They seem to be photos taken just seconds apart. While there are many points of differentiation, the easiest is that one has his left foot angled and the other has his left foot straight. The angled foot version is less common in my experience. I really regret not keeping scans from this series until recently, because I am confident there are more versions of it than this, and this one is so bad I can't make out all the details, but the first image attached is the angled foot picture.

For the foot straight picture, we have:
2 - Font 2, no number, name on mount
3 - Font 1, number in photo, name on mount
4 - Font 1 , number in photo and on mount, name on mount
5 - Font 2, nothing in photo, number and name both on mount
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  #5  
Old 12-27-2023, 12:20 AM
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That's it for group 1.

The second group is numbered 301-390, possibly higher than that. They have green rather than red mount styling, and the stock is more of a grey. Photo quality is usually much, much better than for group 1 in hand. I don't have a 347 Corbett but my actresses are markedly improved in the photo quality, I believe they are a slightly different method of producing the photo and have more of a 'shine' to them. They usually bear a copyright dare from B.J. Falk's photography studio, with the date varying by the subject.

differences I am aware of is that the number can appear in the photo or only on the mount, and the 'New York' is printed in cursive or standard lettering.

In addition, while most cards are found blank backed, a minority of them have advertising for several different products. Bliss Long cut, Red Indian Cut Plug tobacco, a different ad for "Red Indian Tobacco" without the cut plug, and Havana Tobacco's. There may be more. Reeve reports the ad backs have the photos in more of a sepia than a black and white, which matches with my actresses, so we can probably tell an ad back from the front.

I have found several specimens of #347 Corbett, using a different portrait photograph, all of which have no number in the photo and the standard block lettering of "New York". It is possible there is another version with the copyright line next to his name missing.

It is likely he comes with at least some of the tough advertising backs, or did originally. Warshaw's book reports the Red Indian Cut Plug back on a 347 Corbett, but I have not seen a picture of this copy. The ad backs of any kind are scarce.

Since this is the boxing/wrestling board, I want to note William Muldoon is number 374 in this series.

Last edited by G1911; 01-12-2024 at 11:17 PM.
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  #6  
Old 12-27-2023, 12:28 AM
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Next is the third group, which stars numbering over at 1. Most numbers do not actually exist, and make no consistent sense. There are huge gaps and than a random number. There are only 2 over 1000, but the highest number I have found someone mention is 1376.

#966 is Bob Fitzsimmons. These seem to all have the name and number in the photo only, restricting our differences. Fitzsimmons Newsboys are rare, I have not seen many to say the least. Attached is a font 2. In these high numbers, this font seems to be the more common and font 1 tougher, though at least some of the subjects in the 900 range come with font 1 mounts. I expect we are missing 1 of the 2 versions I expect to exist.

Fitzsimmons also comes as a Campbell. Unlike #72 Corbett, I think Campbell is actually more common on Fitzsimmons than Newsboy. Attached are 3 examples I found, without any variation. The cropping, again, is the result of the pictures being cut and glued on to them, pretty much every card will be marginally different in size and thus what is shown.
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  #7  
Old 12-27-2023, 12:31 AM
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Next, number 1065 or 1068. I can't tell which, different people checklist it with either number. EDIT - Identified to be 1068 in post #23

As far as I know - this is the only Sullivan that has surfaced, with font 1. I've never seen another.

In theory, there could be a Campbell and there should be the other font. There might be nothing to look for here, if the numbering was in someways sequential this might be the very end of production and the card barely issued. I don't know.
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File Type: jpg N566 1068 or 1065 Sullivan, font 2.jpg (23.2 KB, 200 views)

Last edited by G1911; 12-30-2023 at 03:02 PM.
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  #8  
Old 12-27-2023, 12:35 AM
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Last, is this 'checklist' card showing many of the photos on a blank mount that appears to be reminiscent of a Newsboy mount. Top row, middle is John L. Sullivan in a portrait pose known on other cabinet cards.

I have never seen a Newsboy with this pose. I'm not at all sure this is a Newsboy card, but it might be. SGC has slabbed it as one, but they often make up things.
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File Type: jpg N566 Checklist card w: Sullivan.jpg (199.8 KB, 207 views)

Last edited by G1911; 12-27-2023 at 01:41 AM.
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  #9  
Old 12-27-2023, 10:05 AM
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Another great project Greg.

Here's two I found in my files, but it looks like you have both styles accounted for already.

Probably had a bunch of other Newsboy images further back in my floppy disc archival days, but those are probably lost forever to time and apathy.
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File Type: jpg JamesCorbettNewsboyAuc11Nov13a030.jpg (79.6 KB, 198 views)
File Type: jpg PeterJacksonNewsboyCabinetA12Sept13a767.jpg (93.1 KB, 197 views)
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  #10  
Old 12-27-2023, 10:53 AM
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Here's the Jackson I have. Are they all not the same photo cropped a little differently by each mount?
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File Type: jpg peterjacksoncab.jpg (23.8 KB, 190 views)
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  #11  
Old 12-27-2023, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D. Bergin View Post
Another great project Greg.

Here's two I found in my files, but it looks like you have both styles accounted for already.

Probably had a bunch of other Newsboy images further back in my floppy disc archival days, but those are probably lost forever to time and apathy.
You know, I am very grateful that consolidating all of my notes includes only having to pull off old disc drives with a flash drive and translating my chicken scratch into actual English words instead of figuring how a floppy drive can be read by a modern computer .

On the other hand, a lot of pre early 2000's boxing stuff seems to be 'lost knowledge' area. Even some stuff that made into Jones' book then got 'forgot' by the hobby, like that T219 Red Cross is a different physical size than the other T219's. The stuff that didn't is a hodge podge of often vague memories. A stack of floppy's recording late 90's boxing would probably have significant value - a lot of notable cards then won't have actually appeared back in the hobby again. One of the things that makes baseball so much easier is that there are very few 'lost knowledge' cards; someone has a story to tell and does about pretty much every odd T206 that has appeared since the 1970's. We don't seem to have a long oral tradition with boxing and documentation is limited to like 2 or 3 places of very broad focus.
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  #12  
Old 12-27-2023, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RCMcKenzie View Post
Here's the Jackson I have. Are they all not the same photo cropped a little differently by each mount?
They aren't all the same photo cropped a little differently dependent on the mount. For Jackson, there are definitely 2 different actual photographs used - the tougher one also has his arm lower, not crossing over his breast as another notable difference. Looks similar, but definitely a different photograph. The tougher Jackson photo is the same picture used to model his c. 1894-1895 N310 Mayo card and looks to have been taken during the same photoshoot as the more commonly seen image of Jackson.

For Jackson (left foot straight), each copy will be ever so slightly different within the same variation. The photographs show signs of being handcut with some occasional unevenness. Note the Jackson that Dave shared, which also has the name on mount but the other font. Jackson's head is partly cut off at the top on that copy, while your card has his feet slightly shaved instead. The same exact variation of Jackson is photo 2 in post #4 - note the cropping is again ever so slightly different. I would liken it to the centering on a modern card that uses full bleed photographs - on the sheet the cards are slightly larger than the final card is, so that a slight off centering won't show a different image and make Topps look sloppy. Different copies will show an extra quarter mm or whatever of a pitchers hand, but it's not really a different variation, it's just how the item was cut.


Separate from this, I would note the inclusion of only 72 Corbett and 73 Jackson as boxing subjects in this group may be indicative of when group 1 Newsboys ere designed and made. Their fight was May 5, 1891 and was big news at the time, one of the most discussed non-title fights of boxing history.
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  #13  
Old 12-27-2023, 11:42 AM
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Also, I found this morning that copy of the composite SGC claimed is a Newsboy that I mentioned earlier. It was sold alongside this "N150" to the right. I am pretty certain this is a hobby myth and not true. Note the same 'checklist' on a different mount is slabbed as N150. N150 is a series of over 1,000 cards, most all actresses, with a handful of men in it including 4 pictures of John L. Sullivan from his stage career. This picture of Sullivan is one of those 4 poses in N150. However, not all of these pictures correspond to N566 Newsboy photographs nor to N150.

It would not be surprising if there is a Sullivan card using this common photograph as one of the hundreds of missing numbers. His boxing card is a 1 of 1 as far as I am aware right now, but I don't think this composite has anything to do with whether or not he ever had another pose in the Newsboy cabinets.

I think SGC or somebody else just made this up and we are looking at something unrelated. A red frame does not make a card a Newsboy. It baffles me how the graders will refuse to recognize something that is plainly and clearly true because it isn't 'catalogued' but will then turn around and just completely make stuff up out of thin air. One of many reasons I am loathe to use pop reports rather than pictures to validate and certify certain cards do actually exist.
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File Type: jpg N150 N566 Composite - not sure related to either set.jpg (190.2 KB, 191 views)
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Old 12-27-2023, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 View Post
You know, I am very grateful that consolidating all of my notes includes only having to pull off old disc drives with a flash drive and translating my chicken scratch into actual English words instead of figuring how a floppy drive can be read by a modern computer .

On the other hand, a lot of pre early 2000's boxing stuff seems to be 'lost knowledge' area. Even some stuff that made into Jones' book then got 'forgot' by the hobby, like that T219 Red Cross is a different physical size than the other T219's. The stuff that didn't is a hodge podge of often vague memories. A stack of floppy's recording late 90's boxing would probably have significant value - a lot of notable cards then won't have actually appeared back in the hobby again. One of the things that makes baseball so much easier is that there are very few 'lost knowledge' cards; someone has a story to tell and does about pretty much every odd T206 that has appeared since the 1970's. We don't seem to have a long oral tradition with boxing and documentation is limited to like 2 or 3 places of very broad focus.

Yeah true,

Maybe someday. I probably don't have a huuuge treasure trove of material on file when it comes down to it, and back then it was much more memorabilia and photos then cards.

I actually bought an adapter to try and transfer my files from my boxes full of floppies a few years ago, and I got about 2 or 3 floppies in and I hit a wall after realizing how time consuming it was...how long it took for my computer to decipher the floppies, even with the adapter...the time it took renaming the files from scratch so they could be searchable...and probably worst of all, how absolutely sh**ty the images from back then were...even when I thought I was using better equipment for that time period.
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Old 12-27-2023, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D. Bergin View Post
Yeah true,

Maybe someday. I probably don't have a huuuge treasure trove of material on file when it comes down to it, and back then it was much more memorabilia and photos then cards.

I actually bought an adapter to try and transfer my files from my boxes full of floppies a few years ago, and I got about 2 or 3 floppies in and I hit a wall after realizing how time consuming it was...how long it took for my computer to decipher the floppies, even with the adapter...the time it took renaming the files from scratch so they could be searchable...and probably worst of all, how absolutely sh**ty the images from back then were...even when I thought I was using better equipment for that time period.
Ain't that the truth. My files begin in 2003 and a lot of the saved images I pasted into my word files are... still complete crap. Sometimes it's enough to confirm X exists or that Y is something to dig into. When I really hit a wall is when I have done all I can with known unknowns and I get to the unknown unknowns where I don't really know what it is I am even looking for. But that is also part of the fun of the adventure!
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Old 12-27-2023, 08:21 PM
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As a collector of vintage boxing thank you well written octavio
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  #17  
Old 12-28-2023, 12:07 AM
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William Muldoon has a variation:

#374 Wm Muldoon - Red Indian Cut Plug Tobacco back
#374 Wm Muldoon - blank back
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Old 12-29-2023, 07:05 AM
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Hi-

I had one of the multi subject cabinet cards like the ones posted here (mine is long since sold). Henry Moses and others on the Non Sports forum specifically stated it was not related to the Newsboy set. Henry had some excellent posts about mine (see link below). Unfortunately, the picture of mine does not show in the post but it was very similar to the ones that are graded. I think SGC just put Newsboy on the flip because whoever submitted it asked them to. That was a dumb move by SGC as it affects future knowledge so I do appreciate posts like yours and Henry's previous information that help to correct the record.

Alan
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Old 12-29-2023, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aelefson View Post
Hi-

I had one of the multi subject cabinet cards like the ones posted here (mine is long since sold). Henry Moses and others on the Non Sports forum specifically stated it was not related to the Newsboy set. Henry had some excellent posts about mine (see link below). Unfortunately, the picture of mine does not show in the post but it was very similar to the ones that are graded. I think SGC just put Newsboy on the flip because whoever submitted it asked them to. That was a dumb move by SGC as it affects future knowledge so I do appreciate posts like yours and Henry's previous information that help to correct the record.

Alan
https://forum.vintagenonsports.com/p...light=sullivan
Thank you, I had not come across this thread in my searching. Many years too late, but that was a very nice pickup for $5! Looks like we can safely remove this one as a Newsboy relevant card and cut the list down by one.
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Old 12-29-2023, 06:47 PM
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Thank you! I would love to find another one for the same price. I do appreciate your work on documenting the Newsboys and other early sets.
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  #21  
Old 12-30-2023, 01:03 PM
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Default Newsboy Sullivan

I formally owned the only known Newsboy Sullivan that is pictured. It is #1065.
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Old 12-30-2023, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Baran View Post
I formally owned the only known Newsboy Sullivan that is pictured. It is #1065.
Thank you! Warshaw and Reeve give the different numbers and my poor eyes couldn’t tell which was correct. I have updated the OP checklist.
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Old 12-30-2023, 02:40 PM
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Default Newsboy Sullivan

My apologies. There was a typo in my post. The Sullivan is #1068. I sent a scan of it to Reeve back in 2006, and I think he listed it as #1065 accidentally on his site. Sorry for the confusion.
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Old 12-30-2023, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Baran View Post
My apologies. There was a typo in my post. The Sullivan is #1068. I sent a scan of it to Reeve back in 2006, and I think he listed it as #1065 accidentally on his site. Sorry for the confusion.
No apology needed, thank you for correcting. It messes with my formatting when I have to assign two numbers because I can't read it cleanly. Updated the original post checklist and annotated the Sullivan specific post to correct my confusion and identify it as 1068.

Something tells me we won't be confirming the second and third theoretical variations of this card anytime soon...
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Old 01-04-2024, 02:47 AM
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Found another version of Jackson, hidden and buried away in plain sight by... being in my own collection.

Right foot straight - Font 1 - no number or name in photo - name on mount with no number on mount.
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Old 01-05-2024, 10:49 PM
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Found another of 72 Corbett portrait, from an old Lelands auction with a regrettably poor image available.

This one has the number in the photo, but not the name. The name is on the mount, and it appears the number is missing from the font. Font 1.

This is the 19th confirmed Newsboy boxer. I suspect we have at least 6 or 7 more to go.
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File Type: jpg N566 72 Corbett 2 Font 1.jpg (48.9 KB, 119 views)
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Old 01-10-2024, 11:58 PM
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Probable cards we are missing confirmation of and I am looking for pictures of:

23 Corbett - Probably a Campbell version of the Corbett portrait

72 Corbett - Probably several further versions of different titling in both fonts on the fighting pose. I suspect a number of them will not exist with the portrait, need to see more examples of the portrait.

73 Peter Jackson - Same as above, particularly need copies of the foot angled pose - the only scan available online of one is poor resolution. There are likely variations here, but probably not so many as the other pose.

347 Corbett- Probably missing rare advertising backs

966 Fitzsimmons - Font 1 version of the Newsboy Fitzsimmons

1068 Sullivan - Theoretically a font 1 and a Campbell exist.


Work in Progress "Master Set" Checklist:
23 J.J. Corbett (Portrait, font 1)
23 J.J. Corbett (Portrait, font 2)
72 J.J. Corbett (Fighting pose, font 2, name on photo, no number)
72 J.J. Corbett (Fighting, font 2, no name/number on photo, both name/number on card)
72 J.J. Corbett (Fighting pose, font 2, number on photo, number and name on card)
72 J.J. Corbett (Fighting pose, font 1, no number, name on photo)
72 J.J. Corbett (Fighting pose, Campbell)
72 J.J. Corbett (Portrait, font 2, number on photo, name/number on mount)
73 Peter Jackson (Foot straight, font 2, no number, name on mount)
73 Peter Jackson (Foot straight, font 1, number in photo, name on mount
73 Peter Jackson (Foot straight, font 1, number in photo and on mount, name on mount)
73 Peter Jackson (Foot straight, font 1, no number/name in photo, name on mount)
73 Peter Jackson (Foot straight, font 2, nothing in photo, number and name both on mount)
73 Peter Jackson (Foot angled, details not clear from scan)
347 James J. Corbett (No advertising on back)
966 Bob Fitzsimmons (Newsboy, font 2)
966 Bob Fitzsimmons (Campbell)
1068 John L. Sullivan (Newsboy, font 2)
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  #28  
Old 01-12-2024, 12:24 AM
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A better Jackson image was found and contributed today outside of this thread by a collector who would like to be anonymous. Foot angled, Font 1, name in photo, no name or number on mount.

This is the first readable quality image found of this pose here. This is the exact same copy I found online in an SGC 40 holder with a blurry scan (how? It's practically missing a corner...), so we've still only seen 1 copy of this pose. Now that it's in better quality, note the position of his left arm and hand, as well as his foot. Same photoshoot, similar pose, but a completely different picture.

This is also the only Jackson we have yet that has his name in the photo.

Is the white beneath his name stray ink or a number? Could it read "61"?

It will be interesting to see if another copy surfaces in a different variation. I suspect there are not many layouts for this pose.


Updated Work in Progress "Master Set" Checklist:
23 J.J. Corbett (Portrait, font 1)
23 J.J. Corbett (Portrait, font 2)
72 J.J. Corbett (Fighting pose, font 2, name on photo, no number)
72 J.J. Corbett (Fighting, font 2, no name/number on photo, both name/number on card)
72 J.J. Corbett (Fighting pose, font 2, number on photo, number and name on card)
72 J.J. Corbett (Fighting pose, font 1, no number, name on photo)
72 J.J. Corbett (Fighting pose, Campbell)
72 J.J. Corbett (Portrait, font 2, number on photo, name/number on mount)
73 Peter Jackson (Foot straight, font 2, no number, name on mount)
73 Peter Jackson (Foot straight, font 1, number in photo, name on mount
73 Peter Jackson (Foot straight, font 1, number in photo and on mount, name on mount)
73 Peter Jackson (Foot straight, font 1, no number/name in photo, name on mount)
73 Peter Jackson (Foot straight, font 2, nothing in photo, number and name both on mount)
73 Peter Jackson (Foot angled, font 1, name in photo, no name or number on mount)
347 James J. Corbett (No advertising on back)
966 Bob Fitzsimmons (Newsboy, font 2)
966 Bob Fitzsimmons (Campbell)
1068 John L. Sullivan (Newsboy, font 2)
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Jackson angled foot for Greg.jpg (49.8 KB, 88 views)
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  #29  
Old 01-12-2024, 04:34 PM
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Gr.eg McCl.@y
 
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And another update today, from collector Ed Str.auss. Thanks for helping and showing cards from your collection for a number of projects, Ed.

This is the thicker font 1, with no name or number anywhere at all. I think this is the more interesting variety of the first series Newsboys, when there is just no identification at all. Technically possible that the name and/or number are actually printed on the mount and covered by the slightly larger than normal photograph (note again, that the pictures glued onto the mounts are all slightly different sizes and cuts and not consistent, as is normal for a lot of CDV's and Cabinets), but I suspect not. Using larger samples of the actress cards that I can examine closely in hand, the photo will sometimes intrude into the name/number printed on mount, but not fully cover over it, the result of imprecise 'handfitting' of the cabinets.

This brings our list up to 19 confirmed cards.

Updated Work in Progress "Master Set" Checklist:
23 J.J. Corbett (Portrait, font 1)
23 J.J. Corbett (Portrait, font 2)
72 J.J. Corbett (Fighting pose, font 2, name on photo, no number)
72 J.J. Corbett (Fighting, font 2, no name/number on photo, both name/number on card)
72 J.J. Corbett (Fighting pose, font 2, number on photo, number and name on card)
72 J.J. Corbett (Fighting pose, font 1, no number, name on photo)
72 J.J. Corbett (Fighting pose, font 1, no name or number on either)
72 J.J. Corbett (Fighting pose, Campbell)
72 J.J. Corbett (Portrait, font 2, number on photo, name/number on mount)
73 Peter Jackson (Foot straight, font 2, no number, name on mount)
73 Peter Jackson (Foot straight, font 1, number in photo, name on mount
73 Peter Jackson (Foot straight, font 1, number in photo and on mount, name on mount)
73 Peter Jackson (Foot straight, font 1, no number/name in photo, name on mount)
73 Peter Jackson (Foot straight, font 2, nothing in photo, number and name both on mount)
73 Peter Jackson (Foot angled, font 1, name in photo, no name or number on mount)
347 James J. Corbett (No advertising on back)
966 Bob Fitzsimmons (Newsboy, font 2)
966 Bob Fitzsimmons (Campbell)
1068 John L. Sullivan (Newsboy, font 2)
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_1638.jpg (188.0 KB, 82 views)

Last edited by G1911; 01-12-2024 at 04:34 PM.
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  #30  
Old 01-12-2024, 10:43 PM
sthoemke sthoemke is offline
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Here's Muldoon, with the advertising back:
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File Type: jpg 1.jpg (21.4 KB, 77 views)
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  #31  
Old 01-13-2024, 01:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sthoemke View Post
Here's Muldoon, with the advertising back:
I only have one of the Red Indian backs, on Julia Marlowe 318 (not as cool as a pug or Muldoon). The actresses don't carry much of, or any, premium for them but that one took me a long time to find a copy of to buy at all.
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  #32  
Old 01-13-2024, 01:21 AM
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And a contribution found by another collector who prefers to remain anonymous makes for 20 combinations thus far. This Corbett is a good contrast to the last one from Ed. That card in post 29 has the photo cut abnormally large, and this one is on the other extreme end, the photograph cut pretty small. Again we can see that these are all handcut pictures, and so cropping varies by at least a fraction between basically every single card in the series.

Font 1, no name or number in photo, name on mount without a number.

Updated Work in Progress "Master Set" Checklist (20 cards):
23 J.J. Corbett (Portrait, font 1)
23 J.J. Corbett (Portrait, font 2)
72 J.J. Corbett (Fighting pose, font 2, name on photo, no number)
72 J.J. Corbett (Fighting, font 2, no name/number on photo, both name/number on card)
72 J.J. Corbett (Fighting pose, font 2, number on photo, number and name on card)
72 J.J. Corbett (Fighting pose, font 1, no number, name on photo)
72 J.J. Corbett (Fighting pose, font 1, no name or number on either)
72 J.J. Corbett (Fighting pose, font 1, nothing on photo, name on mount)
72 J.J. Corbett (Fighting pose, Campbell)
72 J.J. Corbett (Portrait, font 2, number on photo, name/number on mount)
73 Peter Jackson (Foot straight, font 2, no number, name on mount)
73 Peter Jackson (Foot straight, font 1, number in photo, name on mount
73 Peter Jackson (Foot straight, font 1, number in photo and on mount, name on mount)
73 Peter Jackson (Foot straight, font 1, no number/name in photo, name on mount)
73 Peter Jackson (Foot straight, font 2, nothing in photo, number and name both on mount)
73 Peter Jackson (Foot angled, font 1, name in photo, no name or number on mount)
347 James J. Corbett (No advertising on back)
966 Bob Fitzsimmons (Newsboy, font 2)
966 Bob Fitzsimmons (Campbell)
1068 John L. Sullivan (Newsboy, font 2)
Attached Images
File Type: jpg N566 Corbett.jpg (22.3 KB, 79 views)

Last edited by G1911; 01-13-2024 at 01:23 AM.
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  #33  
Old 01-13-2024, 07:12 AM
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The Red Indian back is on at least one other card. Also a Boston Herald back on a Campbell Fitzsimmons.



I suspect that all of the minute variations were simply the result of making new batches of cards when the orders exhausted the old one.
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  #34  
Old 01-13-2024, 03:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exhibitman View Post
The Red Indian back is on at least one other card. Also a Boston Herald back on a Campbell Fitzsimmons.



I suspect that all of the minute variations were simply the result of making new batches of cards when the orders exhausted the old one.
Thanks Adam, I forgot about the Herald’s I should have included as a possibility in the OP. That makes 21 combinations.

Different cards within a series of the Newsboys don’t seem to all have the same combinations available - I suspect from what I’ve seen that they were released somehow in subseries that roughly track the number, with some cards replaced by new cards and some continued into later productions and thus only coming with whichever of the minute variations was being made at that exact time in production.

The only odd thing is the existence of font 1 and font 2 on basically everything, the two mounts in main series 1 existing on everything and the same for most of series 3 until the rarest number sequences are hit and there’s just not a sample size to look at.


I do wonder if the Jackson second pose was a ‘mistake’, or an intended photo change like the other photograph variations tied to the same number. As it looks so very similar and seems to be unusually rare for a first release pose so wonder if it was just a mistake and they didn’t really intend to use a different picture that production run.
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  #35  
Old 01-13-2024, 06:44 PM
sthoemke sthoemke is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 View Post
I only have one of the Red Indian backs, on Julia Marlowe 318 (not as cool as a pug or Muldoon). The actresses don't carry much of, or any, premium for them but that one took me a long time to find a copy of to buy at all.
I have a flea market find of an autographed Lillian Russell Newsboy. I hope it is worth more than the $10 I paid for it.
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Old 01-14-2024, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sthoemke View Post
I have a flea market find of an autographed Lillian Russell Newsboy. I hope it is worth more than the $10 I paid for it.
I'm gonna take a wild guess and say "yes".
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  #37  
Old 01-14-2024, 03:02 PM
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I paid $10 for my unsigned Russell. I think maybe I am doing it wrong
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  #38  
Old 01-26-2024, 11:38 PM
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And another one, courtesy of eBay.
72 J.J.. Corbett (Portrait, font 1, number on photo, name on mount)



Updated Work in Progress "Master Set" Checklist (22 cards):
23 J.J. Corbett (Portrait, font 1)
23 J.J. Corbett (Portrait, font 2)
72 J.J. Corbett (Fighting pose, font 2, name on photo, no number)
72 J.J. Corbett (Fighting, font 2, no name/number on photo, both name/number on card)
72 J.J. Corbett (Fighting pose, font 2, number on photo, number and name on card)
72 J.J. Corbett (Fighting pose, font 1, no number, name on photo)
72 J.J. Corbett (Fighting pose, font 1, no name or number on either)
72 J.J. Corbett (Fighting pose, font 1, nothing on photo, name on mount)
72 J.J. Corbett (Fighting pose, Campbell)
72 J.J. Corbett (Portrait, font 2, number on photo, name/number on mount)
72 J.J.. Corbett (Portrait, font 1, number on photo, name on mount)
73 Peter Jackson (Foot straight, font 2, no number, name on mount)
73 Peter Jackson (Foot straight, font 1, number in photo, name on mount
73 Peter Jackson (Foot straight, font 1, number in photo and on mount, name on mount)
73 Peter Jackson (Foot straight, font 1, no number/name in photo, name on mount)
73 Peter Jackson (Foot straight, font 2, nothing in photo, number and name both on mount)
73 Peter Jackson (Foot angled, font 1, name in photo, no name or number on mount)
347 James J. Corbett (No advertising on back)
966 Bob Fitzsimmons (Newsboy, font 2)
966 Bob Fitzsimmons (Campbell)
966 Bob Fitzsimmons (Campbell, Boston Herald back)
1068 John L. Sullivan (Newsboy, font 2)
Attached Images
File Type: jpg s-l1600-2.jpg (185.4 KB, 43 views)
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  #39  
Old 01-27-2024, 02:49 AM
sthoemke sthoemke is offline
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Why isn't Muldoon included on the Master List of boxers?

While he is most known for wrestling, he also had a boxing career, and was a trainer.

He is in 3 boxing hall-of-fames.
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  #40  
Old 01-27-2024, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sthoemke View Post
Why isn't Muldoon included on the Master List of boxers?

While he is most known for wrestling, he also had a boxing career, and was a trainer.

He is in 3 boxing hall-of-fames.
Because as far as I can tell, he was never a boxer and never had a boxing career.

Muldoon was a physical trainer for John L. Sullivan's camp for the Kilrain fight. He was the head of the NY Athletic Commission for awhile, regulating boxing. He was connected to almost everyone from John Morrissey to Gene Tunney in some way as a trainer, regulator, or bar owner in New York in a time when the sports were closely related. He made the bark knuckle hall of fame because it is established in his old barn Sullivan used as a training camp for the Kilrain bout. He made the IBHOf as a non-participant for his training of Sullivan.

However, Boxrec does not have any record of him fighting in a boxing match. I cannot identify Muldoon ever really boxing, beyond a handful of staged exhibitions to show off someone else's skill. He is depicted as a wrestler on his card, and this was his primary source of fame. Just as he is typically grouped with wrestlers in N28, N29, N162, etc. for these reasons I followed this logic. I noted him in post 5 when I got to the 300's series of green bordered cabinets as relevant to this board.
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  #41  
Old 01-28-2024, 04:00 AM
sthoemke sthoemke is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G1911 View Post
Because as far as I can tell, he was never a boxer and never had a boxing career.

Muldoon was a physical trainer for John L. Sullivan's camp for the Kilrain fight. He was the head of the NY Athletic Commission for awhile, regulating boxing. He was connected to almost everyone from John Morrissey to Gene Tunney in some way as a trainer, regulator, or bar owner in New York in a time when the sports were closely related. He made the bark knuckle hall of fame because it is established in his old barn Sullivan used as a training camp for the Kilrain bout. He made the IBHOf as a non-participant for his training of Sullivan.

However, Boxrec does not have any record of him fighting in a boxing match. I cannot identify Muldoon ever really boxing, beyond a handful of staged exhibitions to show off someone else's skill. He is depicted as a wrestler on his card, and this was his primary source of fame. Just as he is typically grouped with wrestlers in N28, N29, N162, etc. for these reasons I followed this logic. I noted him in post 5 when I got to the 300's series of green bordered cabinets as relevant to this board.
You are correct. I was mistaken. He was a boxing trainer following his wrestling career.
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  #42  
Old 01-28-2024, 06:18 PM
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From an expired eBay listing found via a Discord group, another version. This one is very close to the one in post 38, but this copy has the number on the mount as well.


Updated Work in Progress "Master Set" Checklist (23 cards):
23 J.J. Corbett (Portrait, font 1)
23 J.J. Corbett (Portrait, font 2)
72 J.J. Corbett (Fighting pose, font 2, name on photo, no number)
72 J.J. Corbett (Fighting, font 2, no name/number on photo, both name/number on card)
72 J.J. Corbett (Fighting pose, font 2, number on photo, number and name on card)
72 J.J. Corbett (Fighting pose, font 1, no number, name on photo)
72 J.J. Corbett (Fighting pose, font 1, no name or number on either)
72 J.J. Corbett (Fighting pose, font 1, nothing on photo, name on mount)
72 J.J. Corbett (Fighting pose, Campbell)
72 J.J. Corbett (Portrait, font 2, number on photo, name/number on mount)
72 J.J. Corbett (Portrait, font 1, number on photo, name on mount)
72 J.J. Corbett (Portrait, font 1, number on photo, name/number on mount)
73 Peter Jackson (Foot straight, font 2, no number, name on mount)
73 Peter Jackson (Foot straight, font 1, number in photo, name on mount
73 Peter Jackson (Foot straight, font 1, number in photo and on mount, name on mount)
73 Peter Jackson (Foot straight, font 1, no number/name in photo, name on mount)
73 Peter Jackson (Foot straight, font 2, nothing in photo, number and name both on mount)
73 Peter Jackson (Foot angled, font 1, name in photo, no name or number on mount)
347 James J. Corbett (No advertising on back)
966 Bob Fitzsimmons (Newsboy, font 2)
966 Bob Fitzsimmons (Campbell)
966 Bob Fitzsimmons (Campbell, Boston Herald back)
1068 John L. Sullivan (Newsboy, font 2)
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1_78e3859fddb5984b57e54232b2dd0421.jpg (27.6 KB, 20 views)
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  #43  
Old 01-28-2024, 06:22 PM
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Also, a much better image of a font 1 #23 Corbett than I had available for post #2. I suspect there are only 2 Newsboy versions of this card with #23 and we have accounted both; font 1 and font 2. Possible a Campbell exists.
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  #44  
Old 01-28-2024, 07:04 PM
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And Discord delivers again in short order. Almost the same as the card in post 42, but the number on the mount is in a different place on the mount, the earlier card above the "o" and this one above the "w".

It is well known that the placement of the number, fairly close to the name or far from it, varies but I have not previously seen one where this is a defining difference, with all other factors the same and actually adding to the variation tally. This makes 24 total cards now. There's probably another 15-20 to go.

Note the left heavy cropping as well, removing the white pocket square. They are all handcut pictures; cropping different between every example to some tiny degree at the least.


Updated Work in Progress "Master Set" Checklist (24 cards):
23 J.J. Corbett (Portrait, font 1)
23 J.J. Corbett (Portrait, font 2)
72 J.J. Corbett (Fighting pose, font 2, name on photo, no number)
72 J.J. Corbett (Fighting, font 2, no name/number on photo, both name/number on card)
72 J.J. Corbett (Fighting pose, font 2, number on photo, number and name on card)
72 J.J. Corbett (Fighting pose, font 1, no number, name on photo)
72 J.J. Corbett (Fighting pose, font 1, no name or number on either)
72 J.J. Corbett (Fighting pose, font 1, nothing on photo, name on mount)
72 J.J. Corbett (Fighting pose, Campbell)
72 J.J. Corbett (Portrait, font 2, number on photo, name/number on mount)
72 J.J. Corbett (Portrait, font 1, number on photo, name on mount)
72 J.J. Corbett (Portrait, font 1, number on photo, name/number on mount with name above "o")
72 J.J. Corbett (Portrait, font 1, number on photo, name/number on mount with name above "w")
73 Peter Jackson (Foot straight, font 2, no number, name on mount)
73 Peter Jackson (Foot straight, font 1, number in photo, name on mount
73 Peter Jackson (Foot straight, font 1, number in photo and on mount, name on mount)
73 Peter Jackson (Foot straight, font 1, no number/name in photo, name on mount)
73 Peter Jackson (Foot straight, font 2, nothing in photo, number and name both on mount)
73 Peter Jackson (Foot angled, font 1, name in photo, no name or number on mount)
347 James J. Corbett (No advertising on back)
966 Bob Fitzsimmons (Newsboy, font 2)
966 Bob Fitzsimmons (Campbell)
966 Bob Fitzsimmons (Campbell, Boston Herald back)
1068 John L. Sullivan (Newsboy, font 2)
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1_00eded4dc6cdcdb1ed9ad358268b38b4.jpg (24.7 KB, 19 views)
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