Roberto Clemente game worn jersey.

[ichieh]

I am surprised by the amount of interests on this 1960 Roberto Clemente jersey at Leland right now. Heritage sold this jersey for $36,000 in 2017, and it came with a A5 LOA from Mears, suggesting this is more of a game issued jersey. Currently the high bid is at $102,000, so who know where this jersey will end up selling. That's a pretty good rate of return in less than 7 years for a Mears A5 jersey.

https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball-c...ription-071515

[rlevy]

I'm don't see why you think the Mears A5 grade was implying the jersey was just game issued. The write-up clearly states the reason for the point deduction (substantial wear resulting in some damage, and button replacement). Dave Grob (SGC) clearly thought the jersey was great, giving it the second highest grade possible (noting the same negative attributes discussed by Mears). I think the bidding will go much higher as this is a great Clemente gamer from an important Pirate year.

Rick

[ichieh]

I believe Dave Grob left Mears and joined SGC in 2018, suggesting he must saw and graded this jersey in 2017 when Mears gave out A5 grade. Then few years later after he joined SGC, Dave graded the same jersey as "Excellent", which is the 2nd highest grade for a game worn jersey based on his new SGC grading system. Please don't get me wrong, I think it's a great jersey from a great season, I just find it interesting that same jersey graded by the same person jumped from a Mears A5 (essentially the lowest grade for a jersey) to a grade "Excellent" in a matter of few years.

[ichieh]

It is also interesting that Leland didn't meantion the Mears A5 LOA in their description. I don't mean to question Dave's expertise and professionalism, and I am sure there is a reasonable explanation for this.

[rlevy]

Originally Posted by ichieh

I believe Dave Grob left Mears and joined SGC in 2018, suggesting he must saw and graded this jersey in 2017 when Mears gave out A5 grade. Then few years later after he joined SGC, Dave graded the same jersey as "Excellent", which is the 2nd highest grade for a game worn jersey based on his new SGC grading system. Please don't get me wrong, I think it's a great jersey from a great season, I just find it interesting that same jersey graded by the same person jumped from a Mears A5 (essentially the lowest grade for a jersey) to a grade "Excellent" in a matter of few years.

I understand what you are saying, but the system Mears used then, and I believe still uses, graded jerseys strictly on a point system. So a jersey they would determine was game used would start as a 10, with points deducted for things like buttons missing, tears, loose stitching, etc. So this jersey started as a 10, but received 5 points of deductions for items like the loose stitching and buttons replaced. The A5 game issued designation you are referring to was started by Mears to designated jerseys they could tell were game issued, but couldn't determine they were game used, and this mostly was applied to more modern knits. They would automatically get an A5 as the starting grade, with the same type of point deductions if necessary.

When Grob went to SGC, he decided that he would look at a jersey differently, recognizing that these desirable jerseys would in fact show usage and be far from perfect, so he now looks at the overall condition of the jersey as a whole, and recognizes buttons would be replaced, stitching reinforced if necessary, etc. To me, this makes a lot more sense than dinging a jersey that was kept in use by the player and team by making repairs at the time.

The same issues exist in grading game used bats. Do you ding a bat because it was cracked? How about too much use to where it looks abused? How much usage does a bat have to have to be graded a 9 or a 10 versus a 7 or an 8? All Highly subjective. Same with grading jerseys. So Mears developed their point system to try to be more consistent in their grading of jerseys. SGC took a different path, which I personally prefer.

As to Lelands only showing the SGC grade, they only needed one evaluation to make bidders comfortable. And SGC has become the gold standard on high end jerseys. I would question Lelands if they were using an older more favorable opinion without disclosing more recent findings, but that isn't the case here.

And no, I'm not the consignor.

Rick

[ichieh]

Thank you for the explanation. It does make sense to me and leaving Mears to SGC gave him a blank canvas for his new system. Curious to see how high this Clemente jersey will sell for. Does SGC still grade memorabilia after the merger?

[Topnotchsy]

Originally Posted by rlevy

I understand what you are saying, but the system Mears used then, and I believe still uses, graded jerseys strictly on a point system. So a jersey they would determine was game used would start as a 10, with points deducted for things like buttons missing, tears, loose stitching, etc. So this jersey started as a 10, but received 5 points of deductions for items like the loose stitching and buttons replaced. The A5 game issued designation you are referring to was started by Mears to designated jerseys they could tell were game issued, but couldn't determine they were game used, and this mostly was applied to more modern knits. They would automatically get an A5 as the starting grade, with the same type of point deductions if necessary.

When Grob went to SGC, he decided that he would look at a jersey differently, recognizing that these desirable jerseys would in fact show usage and be far from perfect, so he now looks at the overall condition of the jersey as a whole, and recognizes buttons would be replaced, stitching reinforced if necessary, etc. To me, this makes a lot more sense than dinging a jersey that was kept in use by the player and team by making repairs at the time.

The same issues exist in grading game used bats. Do you ding a bat because it was cracked? How about too much use to where it looks abused? How much usage does a bat have to have to be graded a 9 or a 10 versus a 7 or an 8? All Highly subjective. Same with grading jerseys. So Mears developed their point system to try to be more consistent in their grading of jerseys. SGC took a different path, which I personally prefer.

As to Lelands only showing the SGC grade, they only needed one evaluation to make bidders comfortable. And SGC has become the gold standard on high end jerseys. I would question Lelands if they were using an older more favorable opinion without disclosing more recent findings, but that isn't the case here.

And no, I'm not the consignor.

Rick

I learned a lot from this. Thanks Rick!

[rlevy]

Originally Posted by ichieh

Thank you for the explanation. It does make sense to me and leaving Mears to SGC gave him a blank canvas for his new system. Curious to see how high this Clemente jersey will sell for. Does SGC still grade memorabilia after the merger?

Mears has always evaluated all types of game used equipment and I imagine Dave Grob was involved in more than just jerseys there. But to my knowledge he has only performed jersey evaluations at SGC. And PSA/DNA seems to do everything but jerseys. So if all the individuals are content, a merger makes sense here since they would compliment each other.

Frankly, when Grob left Mears I was surprised he went to start up the jersey evaluation operation at SGC rather than PSA/DNA. I imagine it was a better deal for him.

Rick

[ichieh]

This Ted Williams game worn jersey from his triple crown season was given Mears A8, 2 points deducted for trimming. To my eyes, the jersey looks so much smaller than other same era jersey, and perhaps more than 25% of the jersey was cut off. I wonder what Dave would grade this jersey as.

https://auction.lelands.com/bids/bidplace?itemid=120593

To me, this would be the equivalent to the qualifier grade in PSA card grading system. So an A8 qualifier is not better than an A5

[rlevy]

Originally Posted by Topnotchsy

I learned a lot from this. Thanks Rick!

Sure Jeff, happy to help. I have always found the grading of jerseys and bats rather confusing and way too subjective. But collectors seem to like it and will pay hefty premiums for a 10 over a 9, just like in cards.

Rick

[ichieh]

Rick, love your Koufax collection. Love your 61' gamer.

[rlevy]

Originally Posted by ichieh

Rick, love your Koufax collection. Love your 61' gamer.

Thanks. I was fortunate to buy it over 25 years ago. There were no “expert evaluations” back then but it was clearly an issue free jersey.

[icollectDCsports]

Originally Posted by rlevy

I understand what you are saying, but the system Mears used then, and I believe still uses, graded jerseys strictly on a point system. So a jersey they would determine was game used would start as a 10, with points deducted for things like buttons missing, tears, loose stitching, etc. So this jersey started as a 10, but received 5 points of deductions for items like the loose stitching and buttons replaced. The A5 game issued designation you are referring to was started by Mears to designated jerseys they could tell were game issued, but couldn't determine they were game used, and this mostly was applied to more modern knits. They would automatically get an A5 as the starting grade, with the same type of point deductions if necessary.

When Grob went to SGC, he decided that he would look at a jersey differently, recognizing that these desirable jerseys would in fact show usage and be far from perfect, so he now looks at the overall condition of the jersey as a whole, and recognizes buttons would be replaced, stitching reinforced if necessary, etc. To me, this makes a lot more sense than dinging a jersey that was kept in use by the player and team by making repairs at the time.

The same issues exist in grading game used bats. Do you ding a bat because it was cracked? How about too much use to where it looks abused? How much usage does a bat have to have to be graded a 9 or a 10 versus a 7 or an 8? All Highly subjective. Same with grading jerseys. So Mears developed their point system to try to be more consistent in their grading of jerseys. SGC took a different path, which I personally prefer.

As to Lelands only showing the SGC grade, they only needed one evaluation to make bidders comfortable. And SGC has become the gold standard on high end jerseys. I would question Lelands if they were using an older more favorable opinion without disclosing more recent findings, but that isn't the case here.

And no, I'm not the consignor.

Rick

And in the game worn hockey collecting community, jerseys showing the most wear bring a premium. Particularly those that are “hammered.”

[rlevy]

Originally Posted by icollectDCsports

And in the game worn hockey collecting community, jerseys showing the most wear bring a premium. Particularly those that are “hammered.”

That is pretty funny. With baseball flannels, hammered means it was sent down after the season ended and used in the minor leagues, dropping the value of the jersey.

Rick

[ichieh]

It was a common practice that each major league player only received a pair of home and away jerseys, and they would be used again the following spring training, then recycled them in the minor league. Just imagine how hammered they were.

[icollectDCsports]

Originally Posted by ichieh

It was a common practice that each major league player only received a pair of home and away jerseys, and they would be used again the following spring training, then recycled them in the minor league. Just imagine how hammered they were.

Yep. Pants with repaired holes. Many jerseys began to separate at the seams and got threadbare. Many also exhibit greater than usual fading of the sewn-on letters and numbers. The early ‘70s Pirates jerseys specifically come to mind as good examples of the fading phenomenon.

[ichieh]

Even near the end of 80's and early 90's, this recycling practice was prevalent. Take a look of this Ken Griffey Jr's helmet. Did the Mariners removed the number 2 and gave it to someone else?

https://auction.lelands.com/bids/bidplace?itemid=120526

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by ichieh

I am surprised by the amount of interests on this 1960 Roberto Clemente jersey at Leland right now. Heritage sold this jersey for $36,000 in 2017, and it came with a A5 LOA from Mears, suggesting this is more of a game issued jersey. Currently the high bid is at $102,000, so who know where this jersey will end up selling. That's a pretty good rate of return in less than 7 years for a Mears A5 jersey.

It went for a little over a quarter million.

[ichieh]

Wow, that's amazing. Find me an investment that can generate 700% in 7 years.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by ichieh

Wow, that's amazing. Find me an investment that can generate 700% in 7 years.

Bitcoin.

[ichieh]

Yes, you are right. bitcoin lol.