JSA exemplars

[mcgwirecom]

Where do you suppose you get exemplars from the 1954-55 Venezuelan Baseball Team? You mean every one of those signatures is authentic? How do you know?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/24-Autos-Ven...item5aea8a8663

[travrosty]

exactly, they do that all the time, these 100 autographs of the bangladeshi para-olympic team are authentic. they just pass the piece and wont talk about how they do it. i would llke to see these exemplars too.

[travrosty]

....

[mcgwirecom]

Just once step back and say, "we aren't familiar with those autographs". Or maybe throw in a " we feel the Pasquale Rodriduez is a non-malicious clubhouse signature..." makes it look like you actually know what you're doing.

[prewarsports]

A bunch of those guys played in the Majors and a bunch of the others are pretty well known players from the era whose signatures exist. I bet 2/3 or more they have familiarity with. I think if they can pass those and combine it with the vintage ink, vintage ball etc, they will usually pass an item like this. I am not saying it is right or wrong, but far from a shot in the dark with item like this one. I mean I either have or have had signatures of most of those guys in the past and would have no problems buying it if I needed it. I also do not belive that you have the problem of "clubhouse" signatures on pieces like this as these guys were not hounded for their signatures like Major Leaguers in the states.

Just my thoughts.

Rhys

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by prewarsports

A bunch of those guys played in the Majors and a bunch of the others are pretty well known players from the era whose signatures exist. I bet 2/3 or more they have familiarity with. I think if they can pass those and combine it with the vintage ink, vintage ball etc, they will usually pass an item like this. I am not saying it is right or wrong, but far from a shot in the dark with item like this one. I mean I either have or have had signatures of most of those guys in the past and would have no problems buying it if I needed it. I also do not belive that you have the problem of "clubhouse" signatures on pieces like this as these guys were not hounded for their signatures like Major Leaguers in the states.

Just my thoughts.

Rhys

it is wrong and i do have a problem with it, because if there is even 1 autograph they are not familiar with, they cant pass the items with all the signatures as genuine, just list the ones they dont know and leave it at that.

but they authenticate the WHOLE ball with all the signatures. that is wrong.

the loa states that the signatures resemble other exemplars they have seen. if they dont have exemplars for all the autographs, then how can that statement be the truth?

they need to tell the truth on their loa's.



we have seen this before when psa passes a winter olympic item with dozens of autographs, many who are para-olympic athletes, now that is some deep exemplar files if they have para olympic athletes in their database.

jsa also passed a piece with over 100 negro league signatures, many of them obscure, but the whole piece got passed as genuine. no matter how good the provenance is, you cant do that. if you want to pass it on provenance, then print up an loa that says you are passing it on provenance, and not exemplars. if they passed it based on exemplars, then comparing over 100 autographs on one piece exemplar by exemplar would have taken so long and been so exhaustively expensive how could they make money authenticating it unless they charged so much that it wouldnt be worth doing because the seller would make any money after paying a hefty authentication fee?

jsa can just come on here and answer like always, but they don't and won't.

[daves_resale_shop]

All though it is unlikely, how can you be certain that James Spence does not have exemplars of all of these signatures???

And if so why should he (or any other authenticator) expose his record of exemplars to anyone???

After all it is the proprietary information that is the life blood of his business...

[isaac2004]

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[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by daves_resale_shop

All though it is unlikely, how can you be certain that James Spence does not have exemplars of all of these signatures???

Yeah. And pigs might fly.

There have been examples of JSA and PSA authenticating autographs of which no exemplars exist! If they do that, do you really think they scour the globe finding exemplars of every obscure athlete on every obscure team?

[HexsHeroes]

.

. . . asking whether they had an exemplar(s) on a particular (obscure) ballplayer's signature. It took alittle hounding with each of them, but I eventually got a response from each. JSA stated they have an exemplar(s) to use, PSA/DNA stated they did not. PSA/DNA scored afew points with me for owning up to not having an exemplar to use, before I sent the item to them (with no disrespect to JSA for actually having an example).

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by daves_resale_shop

All though it is unlikely, how can you be certain that James Spence does not have exemplars of all of these signatures???

And if so why should he (or any other authenticator) expose his record of exemplars to anyone???

After all it is the proprietary information that is the life blood of his business...

come on! you serious? psa and jsa authenticated more than a few that they even admitted they had no exemplars, thomas sayers, george dixon for jsa. thomas sayers for psa. psa said that a piece with canadian para olympic athletes was genuine, do you really think they are feverously adding canadian para olympic athlete exemplars to their database?

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by HexsHeroes

.

. . . asking whether they had an exemplar(s) on a particular (obscure) ballplayer's signature. It took alittle hounding with each of them, but I eventually got a response from each. JSA stated they have an exemplar(s) to use, PSA/DNA stated they did not. PSA/DNA scored afew points with me for owning up to not having an exemplar to use, before I sent the item to them (with no disrespect to JSA for actually having an example).

Vince - I can understand you appreciating the actions of PSA here.
I tell people that when they ask me to authenticate an autograph that I have no familiarity with or no exemplars.
My question to you is, why did you send the item to PSA when they had no exemplars?

[HexsHeroes]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Vince - I can understand you appreciating the actions of PSA here.
I tell people that when they ask me to authenticate an autograph that I have no familiarity with or no exemplars.
My question to you is, why did you send the item to PSA when they had no exemplars?

Richard - wrong choice of words on my part. I did not send my autograph to either PSA/DNA or JSA. I just wanted to recognize (in a positive way) that PSA/DNA at least admitted to not having an exemplar.

My inquiry to PSA/DNA and JSA was based on my inability to locate the ballplayer's name among the respective fee schedules on each of the websites. When I initially contacted both companies, each responded with a price to authenticate. Given the obscure nature of the autograph, I wanted to avoid a situation where I submitted my item (therefore paying for an opinion + postage & insurance), only to find out later they were unable to authenticate due to failure to have the necessary exemplar(s). Worse yet, the refund policy was unclear to my feeble mind. In cases where authentication was not possible, would I only be offered credit towards future authentication services, instead of a cash refund? Since I rarely use these services, a credit would have been useless to me.

Long story short, I just wanted to avoid a possible situation where I'm out cash, and failed to get the pursued opinion.

[Big Dave]

If you send in your item and they are unable to authenticate, you will not get your money back, but only a voucher for a future authentication. Can you see that working on eBay...buy something and return it, but instead of getting your money back, you get a voucher toward a future purchase.

What a deal!

[JimStinson]

I see alot of emphasis being placed on examplars, and while it is an important facit of determining an autograph's authenticity, keep in mind that crooks who counterfeit currency, can draw a twenty dollar bill FREEHAND. So how difficult to reproduce an autograph ?
Also the people who do that with autographs are USING KNOWN EXAMPLARS to replicate their product. So in determining authenticity its important to be looking at OTHER factors as well.....THESE are the so called "trade secrets" that any authenticator worth his salt will keep "close to the vest". Speaking from over 30 years experience , yes there are a certain percentage of autographs that are "no brainers" both good and bad , but its the middle maybe 30% that require the work involved. As for keeping an "examplar file" , back in the "stone age" I mean ....before the information age
That was pretty important and maybe still is (kinda). But there are data bases that are available by subscription now a days that in about 30 seconds I can find in most cases multiple examplars housed in institutions of any notable in any field who ever breathed a breath. Maybe its an oversimplified "take" on it but ANY autograph authenticator ESPECIALLY one who charges money for his opinion better be aware of more than just examplars. And even THEN know a few good people who specialize in certain areas of collecting to get a 2nd , 3rd or even 4th opinion. And ultimately after all that still be humble enough to say "I don't know"
____________________________
BUYING & SELLING Vintage autographs Since 1982
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jim@stinsonsports.com

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Big Dave

If you send in your item and they are unable to authenticate, you will not get your money back, but only a voucher for a future authentication. Can you see that working on eBay...buy something and return it, but instead of getting your money back, you get a voucher toward a future purchase.

What a deal!

That reminds me of when I sent away $75.00 to Sports Americana (I believe) around 1975 for a 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle... I worked all summer, gave my parents the money I saved a d made them write a check. My dad thought it was a stupid idea.

After looking in the mailbox every day for 2-3 weeks the package came. There was a 1956 Koufax, Jackie Robinson & Warren Spahn, but NO MANTLE......

and a $50.00 credit memo

some things never change I guess

[mcgwirecom]

man do you know what that Mantle would be worth now? Even in a conservatively managed portfolio...LOL