Best lefty off all time? My vote is Koufax!

[CMIZ5290]

Not even close. This guy had a career that was basically only 10 years.... He won 3 Cy Youngs in just 4 years!, and he had 4 no hitters. His last 4 years he compiled a record of 97-25 with an ERA under 1.70! Plus, he was lights out in the post season.... He was a HOFer in his mid 30's!!

[G1911]

Lefty Grove, and I don't think it's very close.

Grove is a good balance of peak dominance vs. career length. Koufax is a fairly short peak, for me. Grove won 9 ERA crowns, Koufax pitched 9 full seasons (and partial, non-qualifying years his first 3).

That Grove pitched in an extreme offense era hurts his counting stats, and I think this has held him back somewhat in the general consensus. His 3.06 ERA doesn't seem that impressive in and of itself for an old timer, but 9 ERA crowns and a 148 ERA+ career shows how dominant he was.

Honorable Mentions for Koufax, Spahn, Carlton, Ford, Randy Johnson, and Carl Hubbell who would probably come next on my list in some order. Without digging too deep, Spahn and Johnson would probably rank 2 and 3.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by G1911

Lefty Grove, and I don't think it's very close.

Grove is a good balance of peak dominance vs. career length. Koufax is a fairly short peak, for me. Grove won 9 ERA crowns, Koufax pitched 9 full seasons (and partial, non-qualifying years his first 3).

That Grove pitched in an extreme offense era hurts his counting stats, and I think this has held him back somewhat in the general consensus. His 3.06 ERA doesn't seem that impressive in and of itself for an old timer, but 9 ERA crowns and a 148 ERA+ career shows how dominant he was.

Honorable Mentions for Koufax, Spahn, Carlton, Ford, Randy Johnson, and Carl Hubbell who would probably come next on my list in some order. Without digging too deep, Spahn and Johnson would probably rank 2 and 3.

You’re right, it’s Grove and not very close.

[Jcosta19]

I agree that Koufax did not have a long enough peak or career to be considered best of all time amongst lefties.

Clayton Kershaw had a similar 5 year run of dominance and ERA which is saying something with the current offense in the league.

My gut says Randy Johnson, but that is more gut than any deep dive into the question.

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[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Jcosta19

I agree that Koufax did not have a long enough peak or career to be considered best of all time amongst lefties.

Clayton Kershaw had a similar 5 year run of dominance and ERA which is saying something with the current offense in the league.

My gut says Randy Johnson, but that is more gut than any deep dive into the question.

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If Koufax had pitched as long as Randy Johnson, he probably would have had 8 or 9 no hitters and 8 or 9 Cy Youngs....

[Jcosta19]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

If Koufax had pitched as long as Randy Johnson, he probably would have had 8 or 9 no hitters and 8 or 9 Cy Youngs....

But he didnt.
Durability is an ability. Availability is an ability.

Did he have a better peak..yes definitely. But not a better career.

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[G1911]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

If Koufax had pitched as long as Randy Johnson, he probably would have had 8 or 9 no hitters and 8 or 9 Cy Youngs....

But he didn't. I don't think we can use what-if's as a reasonable basis of comparison, because we can then make any conclusion we like. If Walter Johnson had been left-handed, he'd be the best lefty ever.

[brewing]

Originally Posted by Jcosta19

I agree that Koufax did not have a long enough peak or career to be considered best of all time amongst lefties.

Clayton Kershaw had a similar 5 year run of dominance and ERA which is saying something with the current offense in the league.

My gut says Randy Johnson, but that is more gut than any deep dive into the question.

I'd agree with this. Kershaw and Koufax are similar, they are also within 50 innings pitched. I'd place Kershaw over Koufax.
Kershaw has more wins, strikeouts, lower ERA, and same number of Cy Young Awards. Plus his ERA+ is way higher. 157 to 131.

Randy Johnson longevity and performance during the steroid era

[rats60]

Originally Posted by brewing

I'd agree with this. Kershaw and Koufax are similar, they are also within 50 innings pitched. I'd place Kershaw over Koufax.
Kershaw has more wins, strikeouts, lower ERA, and same number of Cy Young Awards. Plus his ERA+ is way higher. 157 to 131.

Randy Johnson longevity and performance during the steroid era

Kershaw wasn't able to pitch under pressure. The game is played to win championships and Kershaw has cost his team. Koufax has 2 WS MVPs plus a career postseason ERA under 1. ERA+ is a flawed stat to base an argument on. It is as much a product of the quality of pitchers in your league as anything. Pitchers in weak eras like Grove and Kershaw are going to look better than they really were. Koufax is the best, even with his shorter career, the combination of being great in the regular season and even greater in the postseason can't be match by any other lefty.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by rats60

Kershaw wasn't able to pitch under pressure. The game is played to win championships and Kershaw has cost his team. Koufax has 2 WS MVPs plus a career postseason ERA under 1. ERA+ is a flawed stat to base an argument on. It is as much a product of the quality of pitchers in your league as anything. Pitchers in weak eras like Grove and Kershaw are going to look better than they really were. Koufax is the best, even with his shorter career, the combination of being great in the regular season and even greater in the postseason can't be match by any other lefty.

Koufax got out before the strike zone was shrunk, and the mound lowered.

ERA+ is a flawed stat? Ok. FIP isn't. Walks, hit batters, strikeouts and home runs allowed. All it looks at. It completely eliminates the strength of the defense behind you.

Sandy Koufax 1961-1966 2.16 FIP
Clayton Kershaw 2011-2016 2.26 FIP

And the other stats...

ERA
Koufax 2.19
Kershaw 2.06

WHIP
Koufax 0.970
Kershaw 0.908

K:BB ratio
Koufax 4.16:1
Kershaw 5.62:1

And again, Koufax had a bigger strike zone, and a 15", not a 10" mound.

Average NL ERA
1961-1966 3.65
2011-2016 4.19

Spread
Koufax 2.19 ERA, league ERA 3.65, spread -1.46
Kershaw 2.06 ERA, league ERA 4.19, spread -2.13

Before Koufax began his peak run in 1961, he pitched from 1955-1960, totaling 103 games started (174 appearances, in total), throwing 691 2/3 innings. He had a 4.10 ERA, a 100 ERA+ (league average), and a FIP of 3.94.

Before he started his peak of 2011-2016, Clayton Kershaw pitched from 2008 to 2010, totaling 83 starts, throwing 483 innings. He had a 3.17 ERA, a 126 ERA+, and a FIP of 3.32.

In his second season, 2009, Kershaw was 8-8 in 30 starts. He had a 2.79 ERA in 171 innings of work, striking out 185 batters, had a 143 ERA+, and a 3.08 WHIP. His 6.3 hits allowed per 9 innings pitched was the best in baseball. His 3.08 FIP was the 5th best in the National League.

By his second year in baseball, after only 21 starts as a rookie, Clayton Kershaw was an elite pitcher.

1961, the first year Sandy Koufax was an All Star, and received any MVP votes, was his seventh season in the Majors.

There's no comparison to make! Clayton Kershaw's peak was better, and it's not particularly close.

Clayton Kershaw's spread against the rest of his league was better than Koufax's spread against the rest of the league. Kershaw's ERA, ERA+, WHIP, and strikeout to walk ratio are all markedly better than Koufax's. Their FIP are virtually identical, which is mind boggling, considering that scoring was up during Kershaw's peak, and he pitched on a shorter mound, with a smaller strike zone. And he became an All Star caliber pitcher by his second season. It took Koufax until his seventh season to reach that level, and even then, his ERA 3.52 in 1961 was only about a half run better than league average (4.03).

And beyond all that, beyond each player's 6 year peaks, Clayton Kershaw has pitched at a high level. In 2017, which isn't included in Kershaw's 6 year peak, he led all of Major League Baseball with 18 wins. He led the NL with a 2.30 ERA, struck out 202 batters (against 30 walks), and he had a league best 179 ERA+. His K:BB ratio, 6.73:1, was the best in the National League.

That 179 ERA+ (which you say is flawed) is better than all but two of Koufax's best seasons, 1964 (186) and 1966 (190).

And last year? Clearly on the down side of Kershaw's career, now, he was still 8th in the Cy Young, going 16-5, with a 3.03 ERA (league ERA was 4.39, the highest in the National League since 2007), and 189 strikeouts in 178 innings.

Kershaw became a great pitcher much faster. His peak has been better, under tougher conditions for pitchers, and it has lasted far longer than Koufax's did. So, just stop this nonsense.

[the 'stache]

And before anybody starts in with the "Koufax was God in the post season", has anybody looked at the teams he beat to win those rings? I think a little context would help.

In 1959, the Dodgers beat the White Sox. A team that ranked 6th (of 8 AL teams) in runs scored, 8th with 97 home runs, and 6th in OPS. Koufax was 0-1 with a 1.00 ERA against a team that was 94-60 because of its pitching staff. The White Sox, led by 22-10 Early Wynn, had an American League best 3.29 ERA. Their lineup was "Punch and Judy".

Koufax was the Series MVP In 1963, facing the Yankees. But this wasn't the "Yankees" that had ruled the 50s and early 60s. Yes, they won 104 games, but, again, it was on the strength of their pitching. Whitey Ford was 24-7. Jim Bouton 21-7. The Yankees' 3.02 ERA was the second best in the American League. The Bronx Bombers? Yogi Berra had retired. The Roger Maris that had been the MVP In 1960 and 1961, played only 90 games in 1963, hitting a whopping 23 home runs. Mickey Mantle's body broke down. The Commerce Comet played only 65 games that season. He played 5 games in June, missed all of July, played 8 games in August (going 1 for 8, with a pinch hit home run), and hit 3 home runs in September. From June 1st to September 28th, Mantle hit 5 home runs. He totaled 72 at bats the final four months of the season. And in the series? He was 2 for 15 with 1 home run. He could barely walk. Roger Maris was 0 for 5 in the 1963 World Series.

Elston Howard, Joe Pepitone and Tom Tresh led the "Bronx Bombers" with 28, 27 and 25 home runs.

Quite the murderer's row Koufax was "owning", there.

In 1965, the Dodgers beat the Minnesota Twins. Their big bomber was Harmon Killebrew. Hmm, he was hurt at the end of the 1965 season, too.

I'm sensing a pattern here!

Killebrew played two games in August, August 1st and 2nd. He played 10 games in September and October, totaling 38 at bats. Between August 1st, and October 3rd, Killebrew hit .167 across a total of 42 at bats. 3 home runs. In the 1965 World Series, 7 games, he had 6 hits. 1 home run, 2 RBI.

The rest of the "vaunted lineup" Koufax faced?

C Earl Battey
1B Don Michner
2B Jerry Kindal
SS Zolio Versalles
3B Rich Rollins
LF Bob Allison
CF Jimmy Hall
RF Tony Oliva

Oliva was the AL MVP runner up in his second season. Other than him, and the aforementioned Killebrew, who was clearly hurt, nobody else in that lineup would scare me. Versalles won the MVP in a career year, and never got another MVP vote again. He scored a lot of runs, had a lot of doubles and triples. He also led the American League with 122 strikeouts.

The '66 Series, Koufax made one start, and lost it against the Baltimore Orioles. He had a 1.50 ERA across 6 innings.

He didn't face one offense at nearly full strength in any of the first three series he pitched in. The Sox had no offense. No slugger. The Yankees had lost Berra, and Maris and Mantle were non factors, injured. The Twins? Killebrew was playing injured. He dislocated his elbow his elbow on August 2nd, and had one of the worst seasons of his career.

So, you'll excuse me if I don't bow down before Koufax's mastery in the World Series.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Koufax got out before the strike zone was shrunk, and the mound lowered.

ERA+ is a flawed stat? Ok. FIP isn't. Walks, hit batters, strikeouts and home runs allowed. All it looks at. It completely eliminates the strength of the defense behind you.

Sandy Koufax 1961-1966 2.16 FIP
Clayton Kershaw 2011-2016 2.26 FIP

And the other stats...

ERA
Koufax 2.19
Kershaw 2.06

WHIP
Koufax 0.970
Kershaw 0.908

K:BB ratio
Koufax 4.16:1
Kershaw 5.62:1

And again, Koufax had a bigger strike zone, and a 15", not a 10" mound.

Average NL ERA
1961-1966 3.65
2011-2016 4.19

Spread
Koufax 2.19 ERA, league ERA 3.65, spread -1.46
Kershaw 2.06 ERA, league ERA 4.19, spread -2.13

Before Koufax began his peak run in 1961, he pitched from 1955-1960, totaling 103 games started (174 appearances, in total), throwing 691 2/3 innings. He had a 4.10 ERA, a 100 ERA+ (league average), and a FIP of 3.94.

Before he started his peak of 2011-2016, Clayton Kershaw pitched from 2008 to 2010, totaling 83 starts, throwing 483 innings. He had a 3.17 ERA, a 126 ERA+, and a FIP of 3.32.

In his second season, 2009, Kershaw was 8-8 in 30 starts. He had a 2.79 ERA in 171 innings of work, striking out 185 batters, had a 143 ERA+, and a 3.08 WHIP. His 6.3 hits allowed per 9 innings pitched was the best in baseball. His 3.08 FIP was the 5th best in the National League.

By his second year in baseball, after only 21 starts as a rookie, Clayton Kershaw was an elite pitcher.

1961, the first year Sandy Koufax was an All Star, and received any MVP votes, was his seventh season in the Majors.

There's no comparison to make! Clayton Kershaw's peak was better, and it's not particularly close.

Clayton Kershaw's spread against the rest of his league was better than Koufax's spread against the rest of the league. Kershaw's ERA, ERA+, WHIP, and strikeout to walk ratio are all markedly better than Koufax's. Their FIP are virtually identical, which is mind boggling, considering that scoring was up during Kershaw's peak, and he pitched on a shorter mound, with a smaller strike zone. And he became an All Star caliber pitcher by his second season. It took Koufax until his seventh season to reach that level, and even then, his ERA 3.52 in 1961 was only about a half run better than league average (4.03).

And beyond all that, beyond each player's 6 year peaks, Clayton Kershaw has pitched at a high level. In 2017, which isn't included in Kershaw's 6 year peak, he led all of Major League Baseball with 18 wins. He led the NL with a 2.30 ERA, struck out 202 batters (against 30 walks), and he had a league best 179 ERA+. His K:BB ratio, 6.73:1, was the best in the National League.

That 179 ERA+ (which you say is flawed) is better than all but two of Koufax's best seasons, 1964 (186) and 1966 (190).

And last year? Clearly on the down side of Kershaw's career, now, he was still 8th in the Cy Young, going 16-5, with a 3.03 ERA (league ERA was 4.39, the highest in the National League since 2007), and 189 strikeouts in 178 innings.

Kershaw became a great pitcher much faster. His peak has been better, under tougher conditions for pitchers, and it has lasted far longer than Koufax's did. So, just stop this nonsense.

Kershaw over Koufax? Really? How about crunch time in the playoffs when it really counts? Kershaw is a joke compared to Koufax IMO Kershaw's Post season stats?? 9-11 with a whopping 4.63 ERA and that is with an always stacked Dodgers line up, any other questions? How many World Series wins??

[Jcosta19]

Also if Koufax had the benefit of modern medicine he probably would have been the best lefty if all time.

I do love this debate and I'm actually a huge Koufax fan, but Don Mattingly would be a 1st ballot HOFer if we just looked at 4 or 5 years.

That's just my opinion obviously.

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[CurtisFlood]

I'll go with Lefty Grove.

[packs]

Rube Waddell is my pick. He was a HOFer without them but imagine what he could have put together with all his faculties. Strike out king 6 years in a row. Out of the game at 33. Only threw two pitches.

[cammb]

Koufax gets my vote. The best pitcher I ever saw. His curveball was sick

[cammb]

Forgot to add that Koufax had virtually no run support

[bbcard1]

Originally Posted by Jcosta19

Also if Koufax had the benefit of modern medicine he probably would have been the best lefty if all time.

I don't know. Arthritis is a kind of tough draw among non-lethal diseases. A lot of advances have led to better quality of life and basic functionality, but not at a peak level of performance. I am actually really happy to see him still able to get round at his age. I have a brother in law with RA that has really had to struggle and work hard just to stay able to walk and drive.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by Jcosta19

Also if Koufax had the benefit of modern medicine he probably would have been the best lefty if all time.

I do love this debate and I'm actually a huge Koufax fan, but Don Mattingly would be a 1st ballot HOFer if we just looked at 4 or 5 years.

That's just my opinion obviously.

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I agree with you totally on Mattingly, and I agree this is a fun debate. But if we were giving Koufax the benefit of modern medicine, we should probably give it to Grove, too, right?

[cammb]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

I agree with you totally on Mattingly, and I agree this is a fun debate. But if we were giving Koufax the benefit of modern medicine, we should probably give it to Grove, too, right?

Mattingly don't have the stats to be hall of fame. One really great year. Never had a 40 homer season and NEVER was in world series.

[Bram99]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Not even close. This guy had a career that was basically only 10 years.... He won 3 Cy Youngs in just 4 years!, and he had 4 no hitters. His last 4 years he compiled a record of 97-25 with an ERA under 1.70! Plus, he was lights out in the post season.... He was a HOFer in his mid 30's!!

Babe Ruth

[boysblue]

Depending on one's criteria, Steve Carlton could be in the conversation couldn't he?

[Seven]

Peak it would be Koufax. I think it's very difficult to argue against that. Career? Lefty Grove or Steve Carlton. I think what weighs in Carlton's favor is that he played against integrated competition as opposed to Grove who didn't. But the argument could favor Grove in the sense that because there were less teams, Grove played against a more concentrated talent pool.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by Seven

Peak it would be Koufax. I think it's very difficult to argue against that..

Why? I consider Grove's peak to have lasted six seasons, Koufax' four. Even if you take a random string of four for Grove, Lefty's ERA+ and WAR blow Sandy's away. Koufax did had more strikeouts, I wonder what Lefty would have done in 1966. Only 3 players hit over .320 in 1966, while in 1931 Grove was pitching against a player coming off of seasons where he hit .381 and .393, and he isn't sniffing the HOF (Babe Herman.)

It's tough to compare across eras, but I think if you move Grove and Walter into the 1960's, NOBODY would touch them.

If WAR is an important stat to you, check this out: out of an 8-season stretch, Grove was the top WAR pitcher for 6 of them. One season he came in second to Carl Hubbell, and in 1934 while Dizzy Dean was tops, Grove's arm went dead. The next season he went from a fastballer to a curveballer and was tops in WAR again. In Koufax' four peak years, he was tops in WAR twice.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

Why? I consider Grove's peak to have lasted six seasons, Koufax' four. Even if you take a random string of four for Grove, Lefty's ERA+ and WAR blow Sandy's away. Koufax did had more strikeouts, I wonder what Lefty would have done in 1966. Only 3 players hit over .320 in 1966, while in 1931 Grove was pitching against a player coming off of seasons where he hit .381 and .393, and he isn't sniffing the HOF (Babe Herman.)

It's tough to compare across eras, but I think if you move Grove and Walter into the 1960's, NOBODY would touch them.

If WAR is an important stat to you, check this out: out of an 8-season stretch, Grove was the top WAR pitcher for 6 of them. One season he came in second to Carl Hubbell, and in 1934 while Dizzy Dean was tops, Grove's arm went dead. The next season he went from a fastballer to a curveballer and was tops in WAR again. In Koufax' four peak years, he was tops in WAR twice.

WAR is garbage. In 1965 Juan Marichal led the NL in bWAR. The only stats he led Koufax in were ERA+ and shutouts. That really has to be a seriously flawed metric when the guy who leads in ERA, FIP, WHIP, H/9, K/9, K/BB,WPA, IP, CG, W-L% and even wins with a pathetic offensive and sets the MLB record for strikeouts in a season and pitches a perfect game is supposed to be the third best pitcher. Marichal didn’t get a single CY Young vote, not even from the SF writers who saw him pitch every game. When your only argument is using made up stats, you have already lost.

[shagrotn77]

My vote is for Randy Johnson. He was an absolute beast, but often times seemed to be (many times, unfairly so) overshadowed by Greg Maddux.

[jgannon]

There are a number of greats, including Warren Spahn. But in regard to Koufax, it's absolutely ridiculous to shrug him off for not having a long enough career. He was more than a great pitcher - he was a phenomenon. His peak may have been brief, but he was around long enough.

Stats don't tell the whole story as we know. Andy Pettitte, a lefty, had 256 wins. Big deal. A decent pitcher, but you can't compare him to Koufax.

If Koufax had had only one good season, then I could see the longevity argument. But as I said before, he was around long enough. And during that time he forever made his mark on the game. Koufax is one of the greatest pitchers who ever lived.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by jgannon

There are a number of greats, including Warren Spahn. But in regard to Koufax, it's absolutely ridiculous to shrug him off for not having a long enough career. He was more than a great pitcher - he was a phenomenon. His peak may have been brief, but he was around long enough.

Stats don't tell the whole story as we know. Andy Pettitte, a lefty, had 256 wins. Big deal. A decent pitcher, but you can't compare him to Koufax.

If Koufax had had only one good season, then I could see the longevity argument. But as I said before, he was around long enough. And during that time he forever made his mark on the game. Koufax is one of the greatest pitchers who ever lived.

If no other lefty had had a great peak, then I would accept this. Kershaw is at least equal to Koufax though, and Grove's 9 ERA crowns is one hell of a peak neither of the Dodgers have hit, plus he hurled 4,000 innings. When there are other options who are not good pitchers for a long time, like Pettite, but guys like Grove, Plank, Carlton, Spahn, Randy Johnson, I have a really hard time seeing how Koufax tops them by any reasonable standard.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by boysblue

Depending on one's criteria, Steve Carlton could be in the conversation couldn't he?

Carlton should get some love. I also think he lead the league in facial contortions on the mound for a number of years too.

[olecow]

Warren Spahn. Hands down.

[RCMcKenzie]

Testing...1,2,3...

[thecapeleague]

agreed.

[glynparson]

Originally Posted by boysblue

Depending on one's criteria, Steve Carlton could be in the conversation couldn't he?

I agree.

[The Nasty Nati]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Not even close. This guy had a career that was basically only 10 years.... He won 3 Cy Youngs in just 4 years!, and he had 4 no hitters. His last 4 years he compiled a record of 97-25 with an ERA under 1.70! Plus, he was lights out in the post season.... He was a HOFer in his mid 30's!!

Only thing is, his first 7 years were nothing special. And he retired at 30, so who knows if he would have continued that 4 year dominance that he did in his late 20s.

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by The Nasty Nati

Only thing is, his first 7 years were nothing special. And he retired at 30, so who knows if he would have continued that 4 year dominance that he did in his late 20s.

And Grove, in 4 years of dominance in which he was older than Koufax, had a record of 108-27, then injured his arm, learned how to pitch with control instead of power, and came back and won almost 100 more games.

[Hxcmilkshake]

You guys lost me at Phil Niekro.

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[Shoeless Moe]

His numbers AFTER his 35th birthday:

103-49 with a 2.65 ERA

Like a fine wine, he got better with age.......not fall apart.

Ya'll can stop arguing, The Unit takes it!

[UKCardGuy]

I'd agree that Lefty Grove is probably the best of all time but I can't believe that Whitey Ford has hardly had a mention.

- Ten-time MLB All-Star
- 6 World Series titles
- Cy Young Award and the World Series MVP in 1961

He was the number 1 pitcher for the Yankees for years in a team filled with stars. He was absolutely a pitcher you'd want in a high-pressure game.

I'd certainly have Whitey Ford way above Randy Johnson in my rankings and tied with Sandy Koufax

My top 5 Lefties list is:
1. Lefty Grove
2. Sandy Koufax/Whitey Ford
3. Warren Spahn
4. Steve Carlton

[Jim65]

Originally Posted by UKCardGuy

I'd agree that Lefty Grove is probably the best of all time but I can't believe that Whitey Ford has hardly had a mention.

- Ten-time MLB All-Star
- 6 World Series titles
- Cy Young Award and the World Series MVP in 1961

He was the number 1 pitcher for the Yankees for years in a team filled with stars. He was absolutely a pitcher you'd want in a high-pressure game.

I'd certainly have Whitey Ford way above Randy Johnson in my rankings and tied with Sandy Koufax

My top 5 Lefties list is:
1. Lefty Grove
2. Sandy Koufax/Whitey Ford
3. Warren Spahn
4. Steve Carlton

You are certainly entitled to your opinion but there isn't one stat that backs up Whitey being better than Randy Johnson.

Whitey was very good but he wasn't even a first ballot HOFer, 2nd greatest lefty of all time? No way.

[UKCardGuy]

Originally Posted by Jim65

You are certainly entitled to your opinion but there isn't one stat that backs up Whitey being better than Randy Johnson.

Whitey was very good but he wasn't even a first ballot HOFer, 2nd greatest lefty of all time? No way.

I know that Whitey Ford wouldn't be everyone's 2nd greatest lefties. But there are loads of stats that back up Whitey being far better than Johnson.

I suppose it depends on the criteria you use. Strikeouts or absolute wins are great stats but they I'd argue that wins % is the better stat here.

At .690 Ford has the best winning percentage of any lefty in history. I'd argue that winning games is THE most important stat.

Ford's stats would have been even better but Casey Stengel used to save Ford for big games. So Ford didn't get as many games in the rotation. So not only did Ford not get as many opportunities, when he did pitch he was pitching against the toughest opposition. That makes his win percentage even more remarkable.

Johnson might have more strikeouts but he still allowed runs. That doesn't do the team a lot of good. Whitey Ford would let batters get on first on second but not to home plate. Ford averaged 2.22 hits per game vs Johnson's 2.76

Ford's career ERA of 2.75 is way better than Johnson's 3.29

In a 16 year major league career, Ford posted an ERA under 3.00 in 11 of those seasons.

Ford's career 2.75 ERA is the 2nd lowest of starting pitchers in the live-ball era.

Ford was consistent throughout his career. Ford had a 1.64 ERA in 1967 (his final season). While Johnson posted a 4.32 ERA in his last 5 seasons.
Johnson's.

[howard38]

/

[bcbgcbrcb]

Grove

[GeoPoto]

The first "agreement" needed is: Greatest! or Greatest Career!

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