OT: The Mitchell Report: Who Will Be Named??

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Posted By: JimCrandell

I think this is the first OT post I have ever started so with apologies here we go:

The forthcoming Mitchell report will reportedly name names of players previously not mentioned as steroid users. The report will also reportedly include the names of well known players not previously named.

Lets hear your speculation on who these players will be--no more than 10 guesses--1 point for each correct answer. No credit for those players already named(Bonds, Sosa, Juan G, McGwire etc.). Also must be current players or in Bagwell's case just retired

Here is my list

1)Roger Clemens
2)Craig Biggio
3)Jeff Bagwell
4)Miguel Tejada
5)Pedro Martinez
6)Jason Kendall
7)Frank Thomas
8)Todd Helton
9)Ivan Rodriguez
10)Alex Rodriguez

HM Eric Gagne
Jeff Kent
Ryan Klesko
Jermaine Dye

Retired Players:

Albert Belle
Brady Anderson
Darren Daulton
Raul Mondesi
Larry Walker
Bobby Bonilla

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Posted By: Eric B

I think those names are all reasonable. But most of the names will come from the NY Mets Batboy so I would think you have mostly NY players in his reports.

But here's a few more. Lenny Dykstra (got huge and signed a big contract), Mo Vaughn (tore his triceps swinging a bat), Juan Gonzales (kept nreaking down).

Side note: Gotta love Juan Gone refusing to sign Detroit's 8 yr $144 million offer as being too low.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Eric,

I tried to focus on current players but...

I would say Gonzo is a no-brainer--hasn't he been named before.

Dykstra ceretainly possible and if Lenny was juicing then I would bet Darren Daulton was and possibly John Kruk.

3)Mo Vaughan-agreed.

My hope (prayer) is that it doesn't include players such as Ripken, Chipper or Jeter.

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Posted By: Matt

Just so I understand the criteria here, we're trying to find out of shape, overweight players that hit for power?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Matt,

In some cases--unusual buildup in muscles, unusual statistical year could be a giveaway? The team connection works in certain cases...for example Orioles(Palmiero, Sosa, Gibbons, Tejada, Segui, Tatis, Patterson).

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Posted By: James Feagin

Speaking just for the Orioles, or ex-Orioles.

1.) Brady Anderson
2.) Albert Belle
3.) Bobby Bonilla
4.) Miguel Tejada
5.) Brian Roberts
6.) Jay Gibbons
7.) Rafael Palmeiro
8.) Jason Grimsley
9.) David Segui
10.) Sammy Sosa

and unfortunately, a lot more.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

I would add that every one of my 10 guesses has at leasst some hope for being named to the HOF so if some are named that would obviously have a big impact on that.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

James,

The only name that surprises me is Brian Roberts?

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Posted By: James Feagin

Who has already admitted to taking steroids?

James

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jim, you forgot Andy Pettite.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Jeff,

The Clemens connection?

James,

We also left out Roberto Alomar.

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Posted By: James Feagin

There have been grumblings in Orioleland about Brian Roberts for a while, particularly his close relationship with user Jay Gibbons. No doubt, the Orioles are probably the most implicated team of all steroid users. As for those who have admitted, I know Wally Joyner admitted to juicing for a time, along with Giambi, who else has admitted?

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Posted By: Jason L

might it be easier to list the names of non-users?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

No, Jim, actually it was Grimsley's unredacted statements in an affidavit that included Pettite along with Clemens as recipients of HGH I believe.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Jeff,

I didn't know that--interesting.

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Posted By: Matt

"In some cases--unusual buildup in muscles, unusual statistical year could be a giveaway? The team connection works in certain cases...for example Orioles(Palmiero, Sosa, Gibbons, Tejada, Segui, Tatis, Patterson)."

This is absurd. That list is every power hitter on that team. While I do not deny many players have taken steroids in the majors, I do debate that it makes you a better baseball player. If more big strong guys took steroids, it's only because they figured that added strength is conducive to their style of play - hitting HRs or fastball pitchers. I'd be very interested to see cases of guys who had smaller frames and didn't hit for power in the minors, come to the majors, take steroids and become HR machines. Here's my bet - when the list comes out, it will be full of players who had no major discernible jump in stats from college/the minors to the majors. A power hitter on the list would have always been a power hitter, and a finesse pitcher who took steroids would not become a good power pitcher.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Matt,

I will take that bet giving odds.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Jeff, I'm not surprised, but I've never actually heard Clemens or Pettite associated with actual statements, only speculation.

Where can I find those statements?

As far as I'm concerned, I think Gonzalez is a safe bet, as is Brady Anderson. I wouldn't be surprised to hear Pudge Rodruiguez, Bret Boone, Alfonso Soriano, Albert Pujols, Manny Ramirez, Bobby Abreu, Brian Roberts, Brady Anderson, Jeff Bagwell, Miguel Tejada, Jim Thome, Roberto Alomar, Eric Chavez, and Chicken Stanley.

-Al

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Matt, why is that absurd?

Palmeiro, Sosa, Gibbons, Tejada and Segui have already been implicated in one way or another.

EDIT: as for no discernible jump in stats, well, tell that to Brady Anderson.

-Al

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Posted By: Matt

Jim - what are you putting up as a wager?
Al - Brady Anderson is an interesting discussion - do you propose he juiced only during his 50 HR season and it wore off rapidly before and after? Was he juicing all through his career and if so, what caused that huge jump? If he was only juicing during that 1 season, why stop if he was so successful with it?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Al,

....or Bret Boone.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Matt, I wish I knew.

Or maybe I don't, I don't know.

-Al

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Posted By: Eric B

Team connections from the 1980's: Oakland A's, then Texas Rangers and Cleveland Indians.

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Posted By: Matt

Al - here's the point - if he was juicing his whole career then we can't attribute that crazy HR season to the juice, can we? Again, I'm not saying he wasn't juicing (I have no idea) just that I don't think the juice makes you a better baseball player.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Matt,

That means if Brady or Boone or Bagwell or Tejada are named I win as I think they all increased their power numbers after they juiced--same with McGwire and Sosa. Batters took steroids to increase power and it worked.

Add Luis Gonzales to the list too.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Does anyone have a copy of the article that tied it all back to Bagwell?

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Posted By: Matt

Jim - so explain Brady's 5 seasons after that 50 HR season?

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Posted By: James Feagin

I personally saw Brady Anderson roid rage at Oakland in 1996.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

James - do tell!

-Al

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Posted By: JimCrandell

He took mp with a women's pro tennis player--Amanda Coetzer--who said its either me or the juice and he gave up the juice

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Posted By: anthony

jim, i think it would be pretty safe to say ripken chipper and jeter wont be on that list...i think they are smarter than that, especially ripken with his community involvement

jeter's a natural star, has his slumps
ripken never produced like a steroid user, he was a better than average player
chipper's like jeter but on the wrong team

****OT anyone else see the size of tony gwynn???? talk about out of shape players

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

50..........look at Luis Gonzales in 2001..........57 HRS......next highest I think was 31 HRS for him............

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Posted By: James Feagin

I won't repeat the words, but this is what happened. In July of 1996, I was visiting family in Northern California and my brother and I decided to go to an Orioles/A's game in Oakland. We sat in the outfield bleachers between Left and Center Field. During the 7th inning stretch an A's fan sitting directly to my left started heckling Bonilla, it was not out of line or mean spirited at all. Brady Anderson turned around and for 5-10 minutes spewed a torrent of expletives, what he was going to do to this guys mother, etc. He did this between pitches during that 7th inning, and didn't care that the fellow was with his children. It was an absolutely pathetic display. Everytime my brother and I discuss someone losing their cool, we call it "Doing a Brady..."

James

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Posted By: Jay

Kevin Youkilis
David Ortiz
Manny Ramirez
Mike Lowell
J D Drew
Jason Varitek
Mike Timlin
Curt Shilling
Josh Beckett
Eric Gagne

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Posted By: jay wolt

It seems that every player that has had a good year or career
has been mentioned on this thread. Is this what Baseball has
come down to?
That everyone is a suspect?

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Posted By: Joe D.

Not on the list!

Thats why I appreciate Ken Griffey Jr. so much

(well, for that reason, and because of the cases and cases of 1989 Topps and Fleer cards I have )

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Posted By: MVSNYC

Jim- you once again have started the "hottest thread in the hobby"...congrats!

how's that for an ego boost?

i doubt that jeter or ripken will be on that list...as for chipper, i could care less, although i wouldn't put it past him...

MS

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

Luis Gonzalez looks the same now as he ever did, lean and not particularly muscular. He has probably not weighed 200 pounds in his life. Take your witchhunt elsewhere.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Jay,

Said like a true Yankee fan--wow would Red Sox fans be devastated if Ortiz was on the list.

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Posted By: David Smith

Joe D,

Being a life-long Cincinnati Reds fan, I have KGJ as a dark horse as far as someone being named that has NEVER been mentioned before.


My reasons:

1) Power hitter in the 1990's

2) Played on the West Coast (closer to Oakland and San Francisco) and was a team mate of Bret Boone

3) Friend of Barry Bonds and was supposedly at a dinner party when Bonds was talking about juicing because of the attention Sosa and McGwire (two lesser players in Bonds' opinion) were getting during the Home Run chase

4) Demanded a trade to the Reds and only the Reds (instead of taking Seattle's 8 year $140 million dollar contract and also DID NOT go Free Agency route) then signed with the Reds. Had ONE good year before MAJOR injuries hit

5) Lives in Orlando, THE town where one of the largest busts occured. A Pharmacy and some employees were arrested for distributing steroids, HGH and other PED's around the country.

I am not saying KGJ DID juice, I am just saying there are reasons to raise some suspicion. So, if the Mitchell report comes out and KGJ's name is on it, I wont be surprised, unlike a LOT of other people.

David

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I'll be interested to hear about Pettite -- after all, he is an extremely religious guy. Not sure though that the New Testament forbids the Clear and the Cream. As for Gonzo, I agree that he's never looked 'steriod huge.' However, to hit 57 HRs one year with his next highest total at 31 does suggest something funky was going on.

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Posted By: Jim VB

Hey Jeff,

Just to play devil's advocate here...

What was Maris's second highest HR total? You know better than to convict on that kind of evidence.

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Posted By: Jay

Jim--He's gone from medium Poppi to big Poppi; I suspect something

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jim, I hear you. I think the difference is that Maris did not play in an era when so many players used steroids and HGH. Unfortunately, it is at least appropriate to question such a jump in power during these times.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

I make this case all the time.

Maris had one monster year, during which time he hit 61 home runs. He never approached that number again. Not even close.

During that season, his hair fell out in clumps. People blamed stress.

He had a reputation for being surly.

If he were playing today and those things happened, he'd be the poster boy for steroid abuse.

-Al

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

no witchhunt and frankly, don't care as baseball has made their bed and are now lying in it.........

Anyway, you can't indict Brady Anderson for a single season in the middle of his career without thinking about 'Gonzo'. Just a logical conclusion.....

Brady, in 1996, hit 50 HRS........never hit more than 24 before or after.
'Gonzo', in 2001, hit 57 HRS.......never hit more than 31 before or after.

Brady's teammates in 1996.........Rafael Palmeiro, Barry Bonnilla
Luis's teammates in 2001..........Mark Grace, Matt Williams, Curt Schilling

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Posted By: peter chao

Maris hit 61 because he was in Yankee stadium and Mantle batted behind him.

Peter C.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Jeff--agreed--Luis Gonzales is a good bet.

Ten players who will not be implcated:

Jeter
Ripken
Chipper
Maddox
Glavine
Smoltz
Ichiro
Juan Pierre
Wakefield
Jimmy Rollins

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Posted By: peter chao

Your telling me Wakefield didn't take steroids? I would have never guessed.

Peter C.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

The problem is it was (and still is) the players' own union, a union that works at the behest and vote of the players, that has prevented drug test of players-- and, thus, promoted its use. The union is still against testing for HGH. So if there is any fan anger, frustration, iffy rumors, bad accusations, not believing players regular' denials, the players can blame themselves as much as anyone for this environment. Players' inevitable denials or excuses after testing postive, hardly give fans and the press reason to trust them.

What Marion Jones showed us is that an athlete can never test positive (in an sport the test much more and harder than baseball), deny it for years and still have used steroids. Jones has made it a whole lot harder on athletes who deny and say stuff like "I never failed a test." Whether fair or unfair, fans and the press are going to say, "Marion Jones never failed a test either."