Heritage Auctions

[Griffins]

<< Originally Posted by jefferyepayne View Post
Scene from a Few Good Auctions

HA: You want answers?
Kaffee (Tom Cruise): I think I'm entitled to them.
HA: You want answers?
Kaffee: I want the truth!
HA: You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has auctions. And those auctions have to be run by men with no values. Who's gonna do it? You Mr. Moderator? You Mr. Collector? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for cards you can't afford and you curse the auction houses for having them. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that by cheating collectors, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me to run that auction. You need me to run that auction.
We use words like house accounts, consignments, buyer's premium...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent cheating everybody. You use 'em as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very auctions I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on bidding on my cards. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up your collect and go home. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!
Kaffee: Did you order the shill bidding?
HA: (quietly) I did the job I was asked to do.
Kaffee: Did you order the shill bidding?
HA: You're goddamn right I did!!

Case closed.

jeff
This is one of the funniest things I have read on here!!!! >>>>



Agreed, this ranks right alongside The Archives threatening to sue themselves.

[Jaybird]

Any response from Heritage? You can get out in front of it and just stop the house bidding. At this point this thread has been up for 2 days and has 2300 views. This can't be good for business.

Just stop the house bidding in the sports auctions. We'll let all the other memorabilia, art, movie poster, western, coins, etc. go for now. Happy to have just one arm of the company do the right thing.

Pretty please. Stop polishing the turd. Just flush it and start again.

[FourStrikes]

.

Originally Posted by Jaybird

Pretty please. Stop polishing the turd. Just flush it and start again.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Jaybird

Any response from Heritage? You can get out in front of it and just stop the house bidding. At this point this thread has been up for 2 days and has 2300 views. This can't be good for business.

Just stop the house bidding in the sports auctions. We'll let all the other memorabilia, art, movie poster, western, coins, etc. go for now. Happy to have just one arm of the company do the right thing.

Pretty please. Stop polishing the turd. Just flush it and start again.

Thanks for making me do a spit take on that last line...off to get a new shirt now.

[BigJJ]

This is not directed at Heritage; I respect Heritage as I respect many auction houses with similar practice.

In a perfect world, auction houses should not be bidding on their own items.

Here are a few BIG reasons why:

(i) It creates an incentive for the exact opposite result the CONSIGNOR seeks - as it creates an incentive for the auction house to achieve poor results at auction for certain items. The auction house may (i) not include all beneficial information in the description and/or may not describe the item as well, (ii) not place the item in the the catalogue or auction line-up as well, and/or (iii) take inferior pictures of the item. All to lead to little bidding - and to a relatively inexpensive pick-up for the auction house.

(ii) Ability to run-up the price on absentee bidders. Someone sends in an absentee bid for 10k, current bidding is at 5k - Can the auction house bid 9k? if they really would like the piece for 9k, but knowing that they will not win the item at such amount? It is arguably not shill bidding if they would genuinely like to acquire such item at such price. For an auction house to avoid purposely running-up the price of items, there would have to be blockout screens to recordings of such absentee bids - to the very top people in the department (the ones who place the bids on behalf of the organization); I doubt such blockout screens exist generally.

(iii) The auction house has 'insider information' with regard to the piece itself. It has knowledge about the particular lot that the public does not - provenance, additional background info. It is not a fair and level playing field for BIDDERS who are not the auction house.

(iv) The auction house has 'insider information' with regard to who has bid, and who is going to bid on a particular item via phone bidding, who has looked at the item and expressed interest. It is not fair to BIDDERS to have an auction house bidding with them - perhaps in an effort to bid them up, because of who they are in terms of wealth and collections, and pattern of bidding.

(v) Such bidding does amount in practice to a double, and secret, reserve.

(vi) Can the auction house renege on a bid claiming error? And be a continuing bidder despite non-payment.

Importantly, the fact that an auction house may tell you that they may bid against you, does not solve the above problems with such practice.

Pre-2009, credit card companies told us in small writing that if we defaulted on credit card payments, they would charge us whatever large annual percentage APR figure they arrived at, say 400%. That does not mean it was right, or fair, the fact they told us. Many cardholders just did not have places to go with better conditions. Now there are better laws governing such practice.

We are still in the Wild West with auctions. At some point, there may be laws against such practice, which benefits the auction house, but not its many forms of clients.

[jefferyepayne]

+1

jeff

[Jaybird]

[keithsky]

This isn't directed at any auction house and no one specific but I just find the word Auction House means just that, you are a company in business that auctions consignors items. You are not an Auction and Bidding House. If that is the case use that word in your title

[Jaybird]

Originally Posted by Heritage Sports

We hide nothing. [/URL]

You're hiding whether it is you or a legitimate bidder bidding on the item. I don't know if it is the house bid, Cousin Fred, or another interested bidder. Disclose the house bids. Put a little red flag out there that said the last bid was a house bid. Then I know when I'm placing a bid, who I'm topping.

Originally Posted by Heritage Sports

We maintain a public database of every single lot we've ever sold. [/URL]

Interesting point. How about if that same public database didn't hide the fact that Heritage had won that particular lot? Shouldn't the people looking at that database know when Heritage has bid and won the lot? It would mean a lot to me and would make a difference in how I value that item.

Originally Posted by Heritage Sports

I hope to hear some brave voices that will echo that sentiment and try to draw this board back out of the high school lunch room.[/URL]

Everyone here is having a little fun but also asking serious questions. The response that you feel hurt and that it's high school only serves to try and minimize the people asking the hard questions. Answer the direct questions instead of commenting about your hurt feelings. It's a business.

[Maddog]

They can't answer these questions directly because the facts speak for themselves.
I'm sure all are familiar with the old Duck analogy.
The auction houses are confident in themselves because there seems to be the impression that it is better to deal with an auction house than a dealer. Personally, I have more confidence dealing with a Jim S and Rich S than I do with any auction house.
Insider trading is illegal, I fail to see how in the scheme of things shill/"house" bidding is really any diferent? As long as one party has an unfair advantage over the other party one can only question the ethics of the deal. In my line of work if there is ANY question as to the structure of a deal run; do not walk; do not collect the $200, it will only cost you 10 times that down the road.

[Wite3]

It never ceases to amaze me how greed gets in the way of good business sense...

Heritage...ask your self this question...

Does coming out and stating you will no longer "house" bid your auctions and be completely transparent help your business in the long run? Would more people consign with you? Would you lose customers?

Seriously? I would be far more likely to bid in your auctions if this was the case and I am sure consignors would be far more comfortable as well. I just do not see a downside in the long run. You are running the risk of causing more problems for yourself.

BTW, I would love to see you pursue a libel suit against anyone on this board. As someone said, opinion would be hard to prove damages on. Ask REA how their suit is going. The other thing to consider is that the second you file that suit, I am sure that the opposite lawyer will be asking you to open all your files and all your books including bid histories, payments, etc. How comfortable are you with that?

[Exhibitman]

I do not believe for a moment that Heritage will sue over the jokes and opinions of chat board posters, regardless of the threats their flack makes [bad public relations move, dude--when trying to plead your case to the public, generally not a good idea to insult or threaten them]. It isn't so much the virtually impossible task of proving actual damages [you can still win a defamation per se case without actual damages], it is that Heritage would have to overcome the opinion and parody defenses, which I believe are dispositive in this case and would likely result in a summary disposition of the case. Not only that, the moment Heritage alleges lost profits or business damage the ensuing discovery into the company's finances and business conduct would force Heritage to open its books and records, something I do not think the owners of any private enterprise want to do.

I also don't see any intelligent attorney telling Heritage to file a defamation case because the blowback would undermine their auction structure. Iin my opinion their auction rules are designed not for transparency but for plausible deniability: as long as bidders don't know which lots Heritage house bid, they can tell themselves that their lots weren't house bid. Discovery in litigation could create real transparency by potentially forcing Heritage to state exactly which lots it bid on and when. Even if I suspected a house bid had been used to run up the price of a lot, I know that if I actually discovered that I might have won a lot for hundreds or even thousands less than I paid but for Heritage's bid, I'd be very pissed. Certainly, I'd never do business with them again.

[Jaybird]

Well said as usual, Adam.

That's what get's me the most, the "We Hide Nothing." statement.

Everything is hidden. Tell us WHEN you bid on WHAT items. Then tell us WHICH items you have won or are bidding on. That simple.

HIDE NOTHING!

[thxforthebp]

Update........
Still no contact from Heritage about the "lost" Scranton jersey ever showing up that I won in one of their prior auctions
Was told now it was pulled from the auction after the sale (REAL PROFESSIONAL) and doesn't even appear on prior auction results if you search their site....VERY VERY suspicious.
I will tell every single person I ever meet in this hobby how HORRIBLE Heritage is to deal with

J. Drasher
jbd99@verizon.net

[Maddog]

+1

[travrosty]

well, heritage came on here and said they are awesome, so who can argue with that?

[Runscott]

I think I missed something, and I would rather run into a pointed stick than re-read all these posts...

Did Heritage say that they also pay the buyer's premium if they win, ala the other auction house that we previously beat into submission? If not, then they truly are killing one of their primary customers: the dealers who HAVE to get lots near wholesale; i.e-Heritage' price would actually be one bid lower than what wholesale is for everyone else.

[Bugsy]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I think I missed something, and I would rather run into a pointed stick than re-read all these posts...

Did Heritage say that they also pay the buyer's premium if they win, ala the other auction house that we previously beat into submission? If not, then they truly are killing one of their primary customers: the dealers who HAVE to get lots near wholesale; i.e-Heritage' price would actually be one bid lower than what wholesale is for everyone else.

You mean do they pay themselves the buyer's premium? I just took $5 out of my left pocket and put into into my right one.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Bugsy

You mean do they pay themselves the buyer's premium? I just took $5 out of my left pocket and put into into my right one.

If it's a separate business, it makes a difference. If not, then of course it doesn't.

[Jaybird]

They are done talking to us it seems. We don't really matter. We're just their customer base. Sports collectibles make up a tiny percentage of their yearly sales and they appear content to just let silence be the answer to legitimate concerns by their customers.

I've yet to see anyone post that they are OK with current practices at Heritage.

Edited to add: This thread has had 4,089 views in 5 days.

[Bugsy]

Originally Posted by Runscott

If it's a separate business, it makes a difference. If not, then of course it doesn't.

If the auction house is buying lots from their own auctions, they are getting a 20% discount compared to the rest of the bidders. Now my analogy of taking $5 from one pocket and putting it into the other is a bit oversimplified because they theoretically pay a tax on that 20% bp, but I'm sure the amount they end up paying depends on how they keep their books. Either way, they are receiving a substantial discount the rest of their bidders are not getting. This is another ethical issue to consider.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Bugsy

If the auction house is buying lots from their own auctions, they are getting a 20% discount compared to the rest of the bidders. Now my analogy of taking $5 from one pocket and putting it into the other is a bit oversimplified because they theoretically pay a tax on that 20% bp, but I'm sure the amount they end up paying depends on how they keep their books. Either way, they are receiving a substantial discount the rest of their bidders are not getting. This is another ethical issue to consider.

The last time we had this discussion (regarding a different large auction house), they explained that, as two separate companies, they paid the buyers premium if their 'sister' company bid on auctions. If that's the case with Heritage, then they aren't getting a 20% discount. But I don't know - waiting for someone to chime in.

[BigJJ]

In instances in which an auction house actually wins an item, as opposed to just bidding, the auction house loses the buyers premium from what would have been a non-auction house high bidder, so saying an auction house gets the piece at a good size discount to non-auction house bidders by not paying a buyers premium (or by paying buyers premium to another company business) is not really accurate. There is a smidgen of a discount - the amount of buyers premium the auction house would have paid (if they were not the auction house) at the price they won the item, less the amount of buyers premium the losing non-auction house bidder would have paid if the auction house had not bid and won. Therefore, I do not think this is much of a factor.

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by Jaybird

They are done talking to us it seems. We don't really matter. We're just their customer base. Sports collectibles make up a tiny percentage of their yearly sales and they appear content to just let silence be the answer to legitimate concerns by their customers.

I've yet to see anyone post that they are OK with current practices at Heritage.

Edited to add: This thread has had 4,089 views in 5 days.

If a person thinks that all these things are going on and thinks that they are all wrong but continues to bid/patronize an AH, the net effect is that you are saying it is OK.

[Jaybird]

I agree with you, Jeff. I'm not going to bid until such time as I get assurance that Heritage has stopped bidding on their own items or at least tells us which items they are bidding on so I can avoid them.

[E93]

My guess is they won't change until they think this is negatively impacting their bottom line. Nobody has posted over here saying they appreciate what Heritage is doing and wish more auction houses would do the same.

The fact that they seem unwilling to change their policy leads me to believe they are making a lot of extra money doing what they are doing and that they can weather the negative publicity here. They won't even change the written policy so that it is in line with their own claims about their actual practices made above. Bidders should think long and hard about this.

It is just my opinion, but my evaluation of their actions is that they do not care what we, their customers think, at least not in any substantive way. As long as it does not impact their profits, they will not change.
JimB

[chaddurbin]

i'd like to thank heritage for sponsoring the nat'l dinner. keep up the good work guys.

[carrigansghost]

Drink a few beers then ask Heritage these questions at the dinner. If I had a problem with a person or company sponsoring an event, I certainly would not attend. A bit hypocritical in my book, but all of the "holier than thou's" will attend regardless.

Rawn

[Leon]

Originally Posted by carrigansghost

Drink a few beers then ask Heritage these questions at the dinner. If I had a problem with a person or company sponsoring an event, I certainly would not attend. A bit hypocritical in my book, but all of the "holier than thou's" will attend regardless.

Rawn

This is a Net54baseball dinner and HA is helping sponsor it. If anyone doesn't want to come to it just let me know. No worries at all.

[carrigansghost]

You will have no opt outs, many talk, but don't back it up. I put myself through school playing pool, poker, and other bar stuff, learned to look through the
BS. Let's see who bids on the next HA auction, but has posted negative comments on this thread.

Rawn

[Jaybird]

Originally Posted by carrigansghost

You will have no opt outs, many talk, but don't back it up. I put myself through school playing pool, poker, and other bar stuff, learned to look through the
BS. Let's see who bids on the next HA auction, but has posted negative comments on this thread.

Rawn

where do you sit on the subject at hand?

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by carrigansghost

You will have no opt outs, many talk, but don't back it up. I put myself through school playing pool, poker, and other bar stuff, learned to look through the
BS. Let's see who bids on the next HA auction, but has posted negative comments on this thread.

Rawn

And that's the reason why HA will not change their policy. Until a lot of people start voting with their $$$ instead of their mouths, you can't expect anything to change.

As stated, I will never, ever, again bid on something in an HA auction until they address this issue. Who is with me? Take a stand, people, and spread the word.

jeff

[carrigansghost]

I have consigned to them for an upcoming auction and have no doubts the items will bring a fair price. I've found that collectors will bid on an item in any auction if they want to add it to their collection. Very few actually stick to their guns and have the self control to follow their words.


I've worked many auctions. I have been an active bidder in some of those auctions for myself during these auctions, nothing hidden. If I knew an item could be bought at a price where it could be flipped for a profit, hell I threw in a bid. I don't care who buys my items as long as I get a decent price.

Have a nice time at the gathering!!

[Spartan833]

I do not bid in large auctions very often, so I don't really have a strong opinion on the policy. I do think this is an issue for buyers more than someone that consigns like yourself Rawn.

However, I am not sure that it is hypocritical to go to the Net 54 dinner because you disagree with a sponsors policies and practices. I don't like all of the sponsoring companies for a fundraiser that I attend annually, but I still go to enjoy the event and the people attending. Does that make me a hypocrite? I am not attending the event to support the sponsors, I am there to support the organization that is having the event.

I do agree that if you complain strongly and then still bid in their auctions, that is another story.

[Jaybird]

Originally Posted by carrigansghost

I have consigned to them for an upcoming auction and have no doubts the items will bring a fair price. I've found that collectors will bid on an item in any auction if they want to add it to their collection. Very few actually stick to their guns and have the self control to follow their words.


I've worked many auctions. I have been an active bidder in some of those auctions for myself during these auctions, nothing hidden. If I knew an item could be bought at a price where it could be flipped for a profit, hell I threw in a bid. I don't care who buys my items as long as I get a decent price.

Have a nice time at the gathering!!

The issue of whether people will bid on the auction if there is House Bidding is obviously yes. As you say, people will bid if there is an item they really want. That still doesn't make it OK for them to do it.

I think the issue of people going to the dinner, etc. is deflecting and distracting this thread from the real topic of the House Bidding by Heritage.

[carrigansghost]

In my little world, yes. To further the point, I'm against any organized religieon, therefore will not attend any benefit held in a "church". I will attend funerals, weddings afterwards at the site away from these places, i.e. receptions, cemetaries. I'm a man of principals, slow to ship out packages, but they will come.

I would in no way go to a meeting sponsered by a company that I publicly bash, just to get some free food and drink. I sleep well at night.

Rawn

[Wite3]

Rawn will not be attending the dinner because not only is it sponsored by Heritage Auctions but the food will be catered by Chick Fil A and In and Out Burger, the drinks will be provided by Wal-Mart, and his table and seat number ended up being 3:16...

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Jaybird

As you say, people will bid if there is an item they really want.

That's obviously not true of everyone. There are many board members who toss catalogs without even opening them, if from an auction house they disrespect. You can assume that people posting in this forum are being hypocrites. Some probably are, but I doubt anyone's going to guilt them into behaving differently.

Originally Posted by Jaybird

I think the issue of people going to the dinner, etc. is deflecting and distracting this thread from the real topic of the House Bidding by Heritage.

Yeah, it was an interesting topic with additional information potential, until the pedestals came out.

[Jaybird]

Originally Posted by carrigansghost

I would in no way go to a meeting sponsered by a company that I publicly bash, just to get some free food and drink. I sleep well at night.

Rawn

Just pointing out facts and questioning whether a company wants to continue to act in a way that hurts their customer base.

edited to stop the back and forth. Rawn, you have your opinion and I have mine. Agree to disagree.

[peterose4hof]

Originally Posted by carrigansghost

In my little world, yes. To further the point, I'm against any organized religieon, therefore will not attend any benefit held in a "church". I will attend funerals, weddings afterwards at the site away from these places, i.e. receptions, cemetaries. I'm a man of principals, slow to ship out packages, but they will come.

I would in no way go to a meeting sponsered by a company that I publicly bash, just to get some free food and drink. I sleep well at night.

Rawn

Rawn, I believe you had said before that you have children. What would you do if one of your kids wants to get married in a church some day?

[carrigansghost]

I would tell my son to just go ahead and give her half on your shit, kick you in the nuts and limp away. Seriously boys, I would not go to the event, (it's a gathering of us geeks), if I felt strongly about Heritage.

Josh, if you were to make this comment about members of any faith, instead of my belief in none, you would be an outcast by now.

Hypocrits come out when their beliefs are questioned. I have no beliefs, therefore, "Oh to hell with me". Let ye that are without sin cast the first stone.....Looks like a long weekend for you in a cramped booth saying "sorry".

I don't shop at walmart, I support local owner's.

[Wite3]

Rawn,
I am an outcast and proud of it. Most people took it as a joke. I hope you did as well.

I am not attending the dinner this year either. Why? Honestly because my government values other things other than paying teachers what they are worth.

..no harm was meant by it and it was to point out that often we overlook certain things in our lives that supposedly compromise our value systems.

Joshua

[BigJJ]

The auction house practices of (i) house bidding, (ii) house consigning, and (iii) access to absentee bid amounts, etc. extend beyond Heritage - I believe to nearly every baseball auction house - except REA (with Honest Auto Bid). Please advise of others.

This discussion should include Heritage, but extend beyond it - perhaps in a new all encompassing thread.

We should be encouraging all auction houses:

(i) to have a block-out screen for absentee and ceiling bids
(ii) to not have house bidding (or if you do, to make each such BID public RIGHT WHEN IT IS PLACED), and
(iii) to not have house consigning (or if you do, to state in the description that such lot is house-owned)
(iv) to not have hidden reserves

Which auction houses state that they do this? Which do not so state?
And - how do we know that they are adhering to their published rules anyway?

If you're not taking food from Heritage (please give it to me), who can you take food from? These practices are endemic to the field of auctions - there needs to be better federal/state laws reflective of advances in technology (screens for absentee/ceiling bids) and advances in understanding (auction houses likely should be only auction houses). But a collecting community can have some impact, particularly on the larger players in the arena.

[Jaybird]

Nm

[carrigansghost]

Go right ahead and state you opinion,Jason.

3.16 would be a great ERA for the Sox to pick up.

Rawn

[carrigansghost]

Please don't get me started on teacher's wages. I would love to work 38 weeks a year for 30K plus benefits a year here in Maine. I have a teacher on my facebook that complains endlessly about the work and posts photos of her summer exploits. I lived with a teacher for 2 years and she was never late getting home from work and I never saw her doing any homework.

Rawn
.
.

[HRBAKER]

Having no pedestals is a pedestal.

...........and there's nothing wrong with that.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Having no pedestals is a pedestal.

...........and there's nothing wrong with that.

Funny you should say that - I was thinking it myself as I typed. It's kind of a strange loop.

I like to put women on pedestals....just high enough that I can see up their skirts.

[yanks12025]

I'm confused.

Rawn,
You don't like heritage, won't go to the dinner because they are a sponsor yet you consigned items to their next auction? If i confused the information, sorry.

[HRBAKER]

I have no opinion on the degree of hypocrisy it is to bid (or dine with) with a AH that you complain about, however I do think it is myopic to think that any business would change their practices when customers continue to demonstrate that despite their indignation they will come back for more.