SGC is now authenticating autographs

[Big Dave]

If their autograph business gets off the ground, and they get on eBay's approved authentication list, I hope it is not the same good old boy type of authentication company. The kind of company where a lot of it depends on who you know, and how much business you do with that company. Happens to often.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Big Dave

The kind of company where a lot if it depends on who you know, and how much business you do with that company. Happens to often.

Don't be shy Dave, tell us what you think .
What are you implying ?? .

[Mr. Zipper]

I don't see why so many turn this into an all or nothing scenario. Can't we like both Jim, Richard and the credible TPAs?

I am usually pretty comfortable with authenticating the material I buy myself. But sometimes I want something and don't have the time, energy or desire to study the signature for months to develop a sound level of expertise in it. Maybe I want a Hideki Irabu signed photo and really don't feel like becoming a Hideki Irabu expert in the process... I just want the damn photo to put in my collection and move on. It doesn't make me a bad guy -- it makes me like 99% of collectors. And this is where dealers and TPAs come into play.

Of course I would prefer to patronize a longtime and reputable seller like Richard or Jim first, and if I bought from them I would have a high degree of confidence in their offerings.

But let me ask... when was the last time Richard or Jim had a Derek Jeter bat? What about an Albert Pujols ball? What about that Hideki Irabu SP... Jim can you help?

No dealer -- or small group of dealers -- is the complete solution unless you have a very tight focus.

Despite the claims of some, in my opinion, PSA and JSA are highly accurate in most cases. Certainly there are areas where they could likely improve. But they are a reliable opinion in the vast majority of cases. I would buy a Derek Jeter bat from eBay with a PSA or JSA cert with full confidence. With Mantle, Williams, Maris and DiMaggio, I can't recall ever seeing them cert a clunker. I could go on, but you get the point.

Now, if I hit the lottery and wanted to invest in a Babe Ruth single signed ball, I would not rely on anyone's sole opinion. In all due respect, if I bought one from Jim, I'd ask for a second opinion from Richard and vice-versa. If it had a TPA letter, I'd get second opinions too. This just seems to be common sense with a high value / high risk item.


* In the interest of full disclosure, I am the space consultant for JSA. I have examined hundreds of items for them and give every one my best thinking and effort. I have never been rushed, influenced to opine one way or another and I am never told who the submitter is.

[Runscott]

Steve, the problem is that we each have had differing personal experiences.

I've seen people here bash authenticators who I have a lot of faith in. When I say 'faith', I mean that I think they get most stuff correct, and if I ever had a problem, they would listen to it and make things right.

On the other hand, I questioned a pre-cert from another authenticator and got blown off. I will still buy things that have their name associated with it, but I have to be able to authenticate it myself;i.e-their LOA's are completely worthless to me. Doesn't mean they are intentionally dishonest - rather that they are slipshod and don't appear to be concerned with their customers.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

I don't see why so many turn this into an all or nothing scenario. Can't we like both Jim, Richard and the credible TPAs?

I am usually pretty comfortable with authenticating the material I buy myself. But sometimes I want something and don't have the time, energy or desire to study the signature for months to develop a sound level of expertise in it. Maybe I want a Hideki Irabu signed photo and really don't feel like becoming a Hideki Irabu expert in the process... I just want the damn photo to put in my collection and move on. It doesn't make me a bad guy -- it makes me like 99% of collectors. And this is where dealers and TPAs come into play.

Of course I would prefer to patronize a longtime and reputable seller like Richard or Jim first, and if I bought from them I would have a high degree of confidence in their offerings.

But let me ask... when was the last time Richard or Jim had a Derek Jeter bat? What about an Albert Pujols ball? What about that Hideki Irabu SP... Jim can you help?

No dealer -- or small group of dealers -- is the complete solution unless you have a very tight focus.

Despite the claims of some, in my opinion, PSA and JSA are highly accurate in most cases. Certainly there are areas where they could likely improve. But they are a reliable opinion in the vast majority of cases. I would buy a Derek Jeter bat from eBay with a PSA or JSA cert with full confidence. With Mantle, Williams, Maris and DiMaggio, I can't recall ever seeing them cert a clunker. I could go on, but you get the point.

Now, if I hit the lottery and wanted to invest in a Babe Ruth single signed ball, I would not rely on anyone's sole opinion. In all due respect, if I bought one from Jim, I'd ask for a second opinion from Richard and vice-versa. If it had a TPA letter, I'd get second opinions too. This just seems to be common sense with a high value / high risk item.


* In the interest of full disclosure, I am the space consultant for JSA. I have examined hundreds of items for them and give every one my best thinking and effort. I have never been rushed, influenced to opine one way or another and I am never told who the submitter is.

This is well said and hits the nail on the head. Is also support what Shelly was saying. Why do people get so angry? IT'S AN OPINION, not the end all be all.

You have some people that act like people are saying their opinion is not as good as PSA or JSA. That's not the case either. You have others that, who the hell knows what they are talking about. Bottom line is that what Shelly said is exactly right.

As for Mr Stinson and Mr Simon. I think it's pretty much established that you both are experts in your field, but as the previous person mentioned what if I want golf or football or some other sport that you may not carry. One cannot always rely on one dealer. Nor should those people be limited to selling their items back to you if they can get more for it with a PSA letter.

Also, Jim and Richard already had their businesses well established before PSA was was created, try establishishing an autograph business nowadays without third party authentication. It would be very hard to do and I think most people would agree with that.

I read a lot of these threads and WAY too many take peoples opinions WAY too seriously. Including myself at times. Bottom line is people are free to do whatever they want and it doesn't make them a bad person or a stupid collector.

[thecatspajamas]

One thing that I think Shelly was getting at this seems to be misconstrued is that he is not talking about Jim or Richard themselves getting good money for the autographs they handle, but rather the next guy down the line realizing top dollar for that same auto when the collector goes to re-sell it. The Collector re-selling the autograph is most likely not going to have the same loyal customer base that Jim and Richard do, and unless Jim and Richard allow the collector to tap into their mailing list when it comes time to sell, they may have trouble connecting with those same customers they fought with to buy the piece in the first place. So it's really not fair to equate what Joe Collector can get for a given auto with Jim or Richard's blessing with what Jim or Richard could get for the same auto themselves. It may work out that way in some cases, but I would wager that in most, Jim or Richard will be able to get more for the same piece selling it themselves than if Joe Collector sold the same piece with a cert from Jim or Richard.

Shelly, feel free to nix all of that if that's not what you were getting at, but it seemed to me there were some crossed wires there.

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Duluth Eskimo

This is well said and hits the nail on the head. Is also support what Shelly was saying. Why do people get so angry? IT'S AN OPINION, not the end all be all.

You have some people that act like people are saying their opinion is not as good as PSA or JSA. That's not the case either. You have others that, who the hell knows what they are talking about. Bottom line is that what Shelly said is exactly right.

As for Mr Stinson and Mr Simon. I think it's pretty much established that you both are experts in your field, but as the previous person mentioned what if I want golf or football or some other sport that you may not carry. One cannot always rely on one dealer. Nor should those people be limited to selling their items back to you if they can get more for it with a PSA letter.

Also, Jim and Richard already had their businesses well established before PSA was was created, try establishishing an autograph business nowadays without third party authentication. It would be very hard to do and I think most people would agree with that.

I read a lot of these threads and WAY too many take peoples opinions WAY too seriously. Including myself at times. Bottom line is people are free to do whatever they want and it doesn't make them a bad person or a stupid collector.

who is the football expert at psa, jsa? then why do you feel comfortable sending it in to them if you dont know????

why give richard a jim grief for not being experts at everything when you cant tell me who the football expert is at psa or jsa, yet you feel comfortable sending your football stuff in?

please tell me who looks at your football stuff and who authenticates it? is it the guy who signs off on the LOA "on behalf" of the team? who looked at it? YOU DONT KNOW!! Then why do you feel comfortable with them, you don't even know if they have a football expert.

wake up people!

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by travrosty

who is the football expert at psa, jsa? then why do you feel comfortable sending it in to them if you dont know????

why give richard a jim grief for not being experts at everything when you cant tell me who the football expert is at psa or jsa, yet you feel comfortable sending your football stuff in?

please tell me who looks at your football stuff and who authenticates it? is it the guy who signs off on the LOA "on behalf" of the team? who looked at it? YOU DONT KNOW!! Then why do you feel comfortable with them, you don't even know if they have a football expert.

wake up people!

Once again you are completely missing the point which seems to be all too common in your comments. You wrongly AGAIN assume that people are using third party authenticators to give their autographs a thumbs up for own collection. As Shelly pointed out earlier and I backed him up, a lot of PSA and JSA's business comes from sellers to help achieve better margins when selling autographs.

Also, please stop the nonsense about how you can sell a rare autograph and still achieve top dollar. I think we'll all agree to give you master of the obvious award. If the mid level product that is assisted the most by third party authentication.

The point to this whole thread was that a seller and a large seller at that was "introducing" another third party authenticator without details even though he already had finished product in his hands from this company. This seems a little fishy and should make people wonder about that companies "relationship" with that seller. Especially with the high level of service that I have heard that company gives the card grading market.

[HRBAKER]

It seems that the point is liquidity and the ability to wash one's hands and move on. It is less important as a seller that the the authenticator be right or qualified to render an "opinion" than it is to get the item into a slab so it can be sold for more with "no questions asked" and "no returns?"

[JasonD08]

I find that the true collectors than know their stuff do not care about COAs or even JSA, PSA, BGS, SGC. If you want to maximize profits on mainstream autos on eBay then PSA DNA comes into the picture. As far as SGC I really wish them well, but if they are going to make a dent in this market they:

1. Need to be well prices (Not $15 or even $12 per card)
2. Better website marketing this
3. Better marketing and push for this product.

If SGC would authenticate at $8 per card they would flow with an influx of business. If they try to compete with PSA DNA at this time, they just will not make it in this market. PSA gives specials at times for $10 each, I have seen it and I expect they give a few high volume guys that price or better all the time. SGC MUST undercut that to really make this work. I called the other day offering to submit 1000 cards and pretty much was told $15 was going to be the price. Coming from a guy who would love to see someone take PSA's pie on this, this business model simply will not work. Get the price under $8 each SGC or GOOD LUCK! I would imagine PSA DNA gets about 50% of the subs right anyway. It would not be that difficult for a company to step up and take this market away.

Jason

[HexsHeroes]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

I don't see why so many turn this into an all or nothing scenario. Can't we like both Jim, Richard and the credible TPAs?

.


I have been collecting vintage baseball autographs just long enough to have purchased items from James Spence III back when he was considered (by some of his peers) as one of the "good guys" who's experience and opinion you could trust. Makes me wonder if the evolution of JSA could have been guided differently, and if so, would it have made any difference with how JSA is preceived today?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by HexsHeroes

.


I have been collecting vintage baseball autographs just long enough to have purchased items from James Spence III back when he was considered (by some of his peers) as one of the "good guys" who's experience and opinion you could trust. Makes me wonder if the evolution of JSA could have been guided differently, and if so, would it have made any difference with how JSA is preceived today?

What does it take to be a "good guy" ?

What are your complaints? Have you voiced them to JSA? What was their response?



This forum is why I got back in to autographs - the passion, interest and good stories rubbed off on me. But there is a lot of stuff posted in here that really leaves me scratching my head.

[shelly]

The real way to end this is to have. Jim and Richard start there own company. They probably know everyone and anyone who is a specialist in all the areas they are not. That will give us the best of all worlds.I know there cost will be fair and maybe even better than the other people out there. Just think. They then could be insulted by Travis. He needs someone new to pick on. Unless of course they use him for boxing.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by shelly

The real way to end this is to have. Jim and Richard start there own company. They probably know everyone and anyone who is a specialist in all the areas they are not. That will give us the best of all worlds.I know there cost will be fair and maybe even better than the other people out there. Just think. They then could be insulted by Travis. He needs someone new to pick on. Unless of course they use him for boxing.

It's funny you say this. I was wondering who on this board would pay one of the major autograph slip sellers to authenticate anything. I could see paying one of the respected authenticators on this board for their opinion, and I would do so if I had to re-sell something that was very obscure, but pay for a 'slab and slip'?

Do any of you do that?

[travrosty]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

I don't see why so many turn this into an all or nothing scenario. Can't we like both Jim, Richard and the credible TPAs?

I am usually pretty comfortable with authenticating the material I buy myself. But sometimes I want something and don't have the time, energy or desire to study the signature for months to develop a sound level of expertise in it. Maybe I want a Hideki Irabu signed photo and really don't feel like becoming a Hideki Irabu expert in the process... I just want the damn photo to put in my collection and move on. It doesn't make me a bad guy -- it makes me like 99% of collectors. And this is where dealers and TPAs come into play.

Of course I would prefer to patronize a longtime and reputable seller like Richard or Jim first, and if I bought from them I would have a high degree of confidence in their offerings.

But let me ask... when was the last time Richard or Jim had a Derek Jeter bat? What about an Albert Pujols ball? What about that Hideki Irabu SP... Jim can you help?

No dealer -- or small group of dealers -- is the complete solution unless you have a very tight focus.

Despite the claims of some, in my opinion, PSA and JSA are highly accurate in most cases. Certainly there are areas where they could likely improve. But they are a reliable opinion in the vast majority of cases. I would buy a Derek Jeter bat from eBay with a PSA or JSA cert with full confidence. With Mantle, Williams, Maris and DiMaggio, I can't recall ever seeing them cert a clunker. I could go on, but you get the point.

Now, if I hit the lottery and wanted to invest in a Babe Ruth single signed ball, I would not rely on anyone's sole opinion. In all due respect, if I bought one from Jim, I'd ask for a second opinion from Richard and vice-versa. If it had a TPA letter, I'd get second opinions too. This just seems to be common sense with a high value / high risk item.


* In the interest of full disclosure, I am the space consultant for JSA. I have examined hundreds of items for them and give every one my best thinking and effort. I have never been rushed, influenced to opine one way or another and I am never told who the submitter is.

Do you thinkg Spence and Grad spend months studying every single signature they opine on? You are delusional! They authenticate thousands of different sigs, and how do they spend MONTHS on each one studying in order to be competent on each of those autographs? They can't, but why do you think they are experts at all of those then? Did they spend months studying terry bradshaw, then olga corbett, then laurent fignon, then soupy sales. C'mon!

They are not highly accurate, if they were, there wouldnt be a zillion joe louis autograph 'paperwieghts" out there with both psa and jsa authentication on them. what a joke!

I showed a run of 141 bad ali autographs from abc corp. how is that HIGHLY ACCURATE???? Would 141 nearly consecutive bad neil armstrong signatures impress you? Would they still be HIGHLY accurate? Or do you just not care because its a signature from a sport that is not YOUR favorite? What if it was? wouldn't you think they are ruining your beloved hobby? Of course you would. Grad and Spence should be ashamed of themselves for what they pass having no business even opining on them.

How can they be 'experts' at 20,000 different names and dozens of different sports and entertainment categories. They CAN'T that's how. JSA says to send in your Brazilian soccer league autographs. I suppose they brushed up on their Brazilian soccer autographs? Hell no! They must be big Brazilian soccer fans from way back over there at JSA. Guys who job it was to put the JSA sticker on the item are now authenticators. they got a promotion and now THEY are the big experts too. Nobody ever heard of these guys. It takes decades of experience, not putting the stickers on for a couple of years.

AGAIN, WHAT A JOKE!

[JimStinson]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

I don't see why so many turn this into an all or nothing scenario. Can't we like both Jim, Richard and the credible TPAs?

I am usually pretty comfortable with authenticating the material I buy myself. But sometimes I want something and don't have the time, energy or desire to study the signature for months to develop a sound level of expertise in it. Maybe I want a Hideki Irabu signed photo and really don't feel like becoming a Hideki Irabu expert in the process... I just want the damn photo to put in my collection and move on. It doesn't make me a bad guy -- it makes me like 99% of collectors. And this is where dealers and TPAs come into play.

Of course I would prefer to patronize a longtime and reputable seller like Richard or Jim first, and if I bought from them I would have a high degree of confidence in their offerings.

But let me ask... when was the last time Richard or Jim had a Derek Jeter bat? What about an Albert Pujols ball? What about that Hideki Irabu SP... Jim can you help?

No dealer -- or small group of dealers -- is the complete solution unless you have a very tight focus.

Despite the claims of some, in my opinion, PSA and JSA are highly accurate in most cases. Certainly there are areas where they could likely improve. But they are a reliable opinion in the vast majority of cases. I would buy a Derek Jeter bat from eBay with a PSA or JSA cert with full confidence. With Mantle, Williams, Maris and DiMaggio, I can't recall ever seeing them cert a clunker. I could go on, but you get the point.

Now, if I hit the lottery and wanted to invest in a Babe Ruth single signed ball, I would not rely on anyone's sole opinion. In all due respect, if I bought one from Jim, I'd ask for a second opinion from Richard and vice-versa. If it had a TPA letter, I'd get second opinions too. This just seems to be common sense with a high value / high risk item.


* In the interest of full disclosure, I am the space consultant for JSA. I have examined hundreds of items for them and give every one my best thinking and effort. I have never been rushed, influenced to opine one way or another and I am never told who the submitter is.

Very well put & excellent point, We are discussing opinions and when it comes to opinions EVERYONE can be right and EVERYONE can be wrong. Sometimes all at the same time.

For a long time everyone thought the earth was flat or that the sun revolves around the earth, I would imagine that when this was proven as wrong it probably ticked off alot of people ....ESPECIALLY THE MAP MAKERS

But in business everyone IS and SHOULD be allowed to spend their money however they like , where ever they like. And when it comes to business the one constant is IF SOMEONE IS DOING SOMETHING RIGHT they stay in business , If not they fail.

With regards to PSA they have been around awhile so they must be doing SOMETHING right , I know some of the people that are involved with them and personally I like them.

JSA ....same thing they have stayed in business because enough people like what they do to keep them in business. I know some of the people that work for them and I like them , Including Jimmie himself..who I've hoisted more than a few beers with over the years.

With regards to the new SGC authentication which started this thread. I wish them nothing but the best, I spoke with the fellow thats going to be their lead authenticator on the phone a couple days ago and although we've never met he sounds like a nice guy , that sincerely wants to do the right thing.

So there is plenty of room for everyone to co exist and get along, and have opinions. The real test in the end is like ....Darwin's Evolution of Species.....If it works it fourishes and grows , if it dosen;t it goes. That applies to business as it does in nature and also applies to third party authenticators , dealers, restaurants, auto mechanics, You name it.
There is alot of good natured banter here and I like it, Have communicated with some likeable people as a result of my participation here that I otherwise would have never crossed paths with and for that I'm greatful.

No reason on earth why everyone can't have their opinions and still get along
_________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

[thecatspajamas]

Just got this in an e-mail:

[Plinvestments]

Originally Posted by JimStinson

Very well put & excellent point, We are discussing opinions and when it comes to opinions EVERYONE can be right and EVERYONE can be wrong. Sometimes all at the same time.

For a long time everyone thought the earth was flat or that the sun revolves around the earth, I would imagine that when this was proven as wrong it probably ticked off alot of people ....ESPECIALLY THE MAP MAKERS

But in business everyone IS and SHOULD be allowed to spend their money however they like , where ever they like. And when it comes to business the one constant is IF SOMEONE IS DOING SOMETHING RIGHT they stay in business , If not they fail.

With regards to PSA they have been around awhile so they must be doing SOMETHING right , I know some of the people that are involved with them and personally I like them.

JSA ....same thing they have stayed in business because enough people like what they do to keep them in business. I know some of the people that work for them and I like them , Including Jimmie himself..who I've hoisted more than a few beers with over the years.

With regards to the new SGC authentication which started this thread. I wish them nothing but the best, I spoke with the fellow thats going to be their lead authenticator on the phone a couple days ago and although we've never met he sounds like a nice guy , that sincerely wants to do the right thing.

So there is plenty of room for everyone to co exist and get along, and have opinions. The real test in the end is like ....Darwin's Evolution of Species.....If it works it fourishes and grows , if it dosen;t it goes. That applies to business as it does in nature and also applies to third party authenticators , dealers, restaurants, auto mechanics, You name it.
There is alot of good natured banter here and I like it, Have communicated with some likeable people as a result of my participation here that I otherwise would have never crossed paths with and for that I'm greatful.

No reason on earth why everyone can't have their opinions and still get along
_________________________
jim@stinsonsports.com

+1

[mighty bombjack]

I will reiterate what many here have said (Jason, Steve, and Jim in his last post). I dont get the hatred for the TPAs. It's just an opinion and a service that's been well-marketed. It's very easy to ignore a PSA or JSA cert and just look at the auto. It will be the same for SGC. Slabs are easy to crack, too (but please, people, dont ask these companies to put stickers on an item). Certainly there are some people who buy the cert only and ignore the auto, but I could care less how they spend their money.

I love this hobby and will leave when I stop loving it. Don't see that happening, though.

[travrosty]

if they arent willing to list all their consultants and who looked at the autograph, then the same old system of unaccountability will continue.

if they have so many consultants, why not list who they are. jsa doesnt list them all, psa neither. why? because if you knew their names you would say

?????? who is that? if some guy named lance johnson deemed your autograph authentic, and you had never heard of him before, you would wonder what was going on. but if steve grad or james spence signs on "behalf" of lance johnson, now its a steve grad psa or james spence jsa authentication, and lance johnson can go on unabated and no one can ever check his credentials.

Lance Johnson just a made up name, but it could be otto masterson, bill yodel, or pete Underwood, who cares, there are plenty of guys helping these outfits that no one has heard of, and if you found out, you would be less than impressed.

Jsa lists about 9 consultants, but brags he has 30 or 40, well who the hell are they??????????????