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#1
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Baseball, Football, Basketball, Hockey.
Best of all time...
Baseball.....Cobb/Ruth Football.....Namath/Unitas Basketball.....Russell/Jordan Hockey......Howe/Gretzgy Very interested to know what you all think. David. Last edited by Cardboard Junkie; 02-21-2013 at 04:44 PM. Reason: should be in watercooler talk |
#2
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Namath? He is absolutely the worst member of the Hall of Fame.
-Losing record -More Ints than TDs -Low completion % -I can name 30 Qbs I would name over him Without his guarantee and a Super Bowl won by the running game and defense no one would ever talk about him. I like all your other choices |
#3
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Ty Cobbs and the guy with 14 feedback who just outbid me on the ebay Connie Mack.
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#4
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Yeah, he doesn't belong on any best of list. He did have a couple prolific yardage seasons for the era, but he threw more interceptions then TD's nearly every year of his career. To think he's in the same HOF as Johnny Unitas, Bart Starr, Joe Montana, Dan Marino and John Elway is kind of mind-boggling. Just from his era, Non-Hall of Famers I'd take over him are John Brodie, John Hadl, Roman Gabriel, Daryl Lamonica, Dan Merideth |
#5
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like your list but...baseball should be (will clearly be in a few more years):
Ruth/Pujols Pujols unprecedented player overlooked in the Steroid era... Best right handed hitter ever! his stats (especially Doubles) DWARF HOF righties.... and the best part about it? Pujols has a PIN HEAD ! 7 1/4 TINY head! no HGH here, no sir! |
#6
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also
If MLB does the right thing and STRIPS season awards from know cheaters (Bondz), then Pujols would have 6 MVPS...
dont forget his 3 WS jacks! |
#7
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That was a reallllly nice OJ Mack.... Yea, about the list, I'll have to definitely disagree with Namath. Archie Manning was better than him, and he's not even in the HOF. Certainly nostalgic contexts carry their weight - so sometimes if that is in play, then by all means consider them the greatest. Baseball: Ruth/Teddy Ballgame Basketball: Jordan. Football: Rice/Walter Payton Hockey: Gretzky.
__________________
. Looking for: T205 Cubs in AB, Cycle, Sov, HLC. & E91A Cubs, T206 Cubs master set, T3 Cubs |
#8
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Hockey: Orr and Lemieux
Lemieux accomplished numbers quite comparable to Gretzky while playing with what was a losing team from his rookie year until 1991. The Penguins made the playoffs just once in Lemieux's first 7 seasons, but Lemieux put up unbelievable numbers still. While Gretzky benefited early in his career from playing with the likes of Kurri, Coffey, Messier, Anderson and Lowe...Lemieux played with the likes of Rob Brown, Bob Errey, Warren Young, Dan Quinn and Randy Cunneyworth. Lemieux finished his career with more goals per game, and more playoff goals per game than Gretzky. Bobby Orr was the first defenceman to lead the NHL in scoring, the first to score 100 points in a season and the first to record 100 assists in a season. No defenseman besides Orr has ever led the league in assists; he did it five times. Not only was Orr the first defenseman to record 100 assists in a season, he was the first player to do so period. Orr changed how the position was played like no one else had before him. |
#9
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I concur.
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#10
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Baseball: Cobb/Ruth (tie)
Football: Rice/Brown/Sanders/Unitas/Montana (all tied) Hockey: Gretzky Basketball: (which I hate) but I'll say Jordan |
#11
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Mark hit the nail on the head: Orr and Lemieux ... although I would put Lemieux second to Gordie Howe, just ahead of Gretzky. As great as Gretzky was during Edmonton's glory years (I was an NHL beat writer for a Canadian daily from 83-92), he was surrounded by future Hall of Famers. After being traded to the Kings, he never won another thing. Lemieux, on the other hand, transformed what for the most part was a mediocre band of wannabes into two-time Stanley Cup champions and, in my opinion, would have eclipsed most of The Great One's scoring records if he hadn't been injured so often (above and beyond his cancer). Howe and Orr were simply the two most complete players in NHL history. Gordie was the template for every future power forward, and Orr completely transformed both the physical and mental way hockey is played. Sadly, because of his wonky knees, it all ended much too soon.
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#12
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and the correct answer is
jordan/kareem (have to include his ucla days too) orr/keon j. brown/rice ruth/williams (hard to believe, but he may be underrated) |
#13
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These guys get my vote...
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My collection can be viewed at http://imageevent.com/jeffintoronto Always looking for interesting pre-war baseball & hockey postcards! |
#14
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ruth
thorpe russell gretzky Last edited by andybecker; 02-23-2013 at 02:54 PM. |
#15
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Ruth/Walter Johnson
Jerry Rice/Jim Brown Russell/Jordan Orr/Gretzky
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___________________ T206 Master Set:103/524 T206 HOFers: 22/76 T206 SLers: 11/48 T206 Back Run: 28/39 Desiderata You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should. With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Strive to be happy. |
#16
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Ruth / Aaron (or Mays or Williams)
Jordan / Russell Orr / Gretzky (Orr by a WIDE margin) Montanna / Brady
__________________
My wantlist http://www.oldbaseball.com/wantlists...tag=bdonaldson Member of OBC (Old Baseball Cards), the longest running on-line collecting club www.oldbaseball.com |
#17
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Ruth & Walter Johnson
Jordan & Russell Orr & Gretzky Payton & Jim Brown |
#18
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Speaker/Cobb
Jordan/Cousy Grange/Thorpe Orr/Tretiak |
#19
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Baseball - Ruth
Football - Unitas Basketball - Jordan Hockey - Gretzky
__________________
N300: 11/48 T206: 175/524 E95: 24/25 E106: 4/48 E210-1: Completed December 2013 R319: 43/240 |
#20
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Quote:
Football.......Montana/Unitas Basketball.....Russell/Magic Hockey.........Gretzgy/Lamieux |
#21
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I'll go:
Baseball: Ruth (Grove for pitchers) Basketball: Jordan (curious where James ends up) Football: Unitas/Montana (hard to compare positions in football, but QBs are more valuable than RBs/WRs. (Brady and Manning could eclipse these guys) Hockey: Gretzky (who along with Orr,Howe, and Lemieux probably make up everyone's top 4) It baffles me that some people are leaving off Gretzky in Hockey. Of all the sports, Gretzky's numbers are by far the most dominant. I'm OK with saying "Orr is the greatest defenceman" or "Orr redefined the role of defenceman" or "Orr embodies everything great about hockey" or "I wish my daughter would marry Bobby Orr", but to say Orr is better "by a wide margin" over Gretzky is silly. At least keep the forwards, defenceman, and goalies separate. To claim Lemieux is better due to goal rates is also a bit absurd. Goal rates are skewed towards shorter careers. The fact that Gretzky had a long and productive career with a normal decline phase shouldn't be held against him when comparing to guys like Orr, Bossy, or Lemieux. Also ignoring assists for Gretzky is like ignoring wins for Cy Young or strikeouts for Nolan Ryan. Gretzky had more assists than any other player has had points. Add in the fact that Gretzky has the most goals ever and he has 50% more points than #2 on the list! Lemieux was never going to come close to that even if the game hadn't slowed down after '94. While hockey stats are difficult to adjust for teams and era, I have never seen any analysis that puts Howe and Lemieux ahead over their careers (they do close the gap and Lemieux had a comparable, but shorter peak). Also, saying that Gretzky benefited from playing with great players like Kurri is misleading. Lemieux benefited from playing with Kevin Stevens because any competent linemate is going to benefit you. It is more fair to say Kurri and Stevens benefited from playing with Gretzky and Lemieux. Messier, Coffey, and Gretzky are all great players, but again why penalize Gretzky for capturing the cup with those guys? Of Howe, Gretzky, Lemieux, and Orr, none won the cup in the second half of their careers. Howe and Orr had great teams that couldn't overcome greater Habs teams. Lemieux didn't win until he had some other HOFers surrounding him (Francis, Jagr, Murphy, Coffey, Recchi, Mullen). Although most were not at their peaks, this wasn't a "bunch of wannabees" inspired by Lemieux. Gretzky did carry the '93 Kings to the cup, but lost (as all the greats seem to) to Montreal. Strange that Montreal ended Howe's run in the 50s, Orr's run in the '70s, blocked Gretzky's last cup, and won it immediately after Lemieux's cups. I totally understand if Howe, Orr, or Lemieux is your favorite hockey player, or if you want to include them in the best ever discussion; but, like Ruth in baseball, Gretzky is the man to beat. Quote:
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#22
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Baseball: B Bonds/W Mays
Football: J Rice/L Taylor Basketball: M Jordan/L James Hockey: No Idea |
#23
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Man, gotta go with Gretzky, even though the contrarian in all of us wants to say otherwise.
To say Lemieux dragged a bunch of rag-tag players on his back to the Cup is a bit disingenuous IMO. Those Pens rosters were absolutely loaded with quality players. Not sure why #99 gets docked for being durable either. I think the most amazing intangible statistic for me. Gretzky regularly played on the Power killing line (as did Lemiuex). 73 Shorthanded Goals. That's insane! Last edited by D. Bergin; 02-24-2013 at 08:52 AM. |
#24
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And no one is penalizing Gretzky for playing with the the HOFers but he put up his best numbers in those years, while some of Lemieux's highest point totals came playing on teams WITHOUT Jagr, Francis or Stevens. Lemieux put up 199 points in the 88-89 and single handedly took that team to the playoffs, something Gretzky never had to do in with the 80s Oilers. Lemieux put up over 100 points in each of his first 6 seasons, making the playoffs just once with a Pens team that wallowed in the bottom of the Whales conference. In Gretzky's last 8 seasons, he scored more than 30 goals just twice and put up over 100 points just twice. I just can't say a player was the best ever when for the last 8 years of his career he was honestly nothing more than average statistically speaking. Last edited by markf31; 02-24-2013 at 09:25 AM. |
#25
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That card got some attention around here. At least it went to a board member. |
#26
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But he DID do it with several Kings teams. Not quite sure how that gets glossed over. |
#27
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Babe Ruth/Ty Cobb
Jim Brown/Joe Montana Michael Jordan/Wilt Chamberlain Wayne Gretzky/Mario Lemieux
__________________
Its so great to love all the New York teams in all sports, particularly the YANKEES. |
#28
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Best of Sports
My Picks
Baseball: Ruth/Mantle Basketball: Jordan/Bird Football: Payton/B. Sanders Hockey: Gretzky/Orr |
#29
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Baseball: Ruth / Cobb
Hockey: Gretzky / Howe Football: Brown / Rice Basketball: Jordan / Wilt the Stilt Best multi sport = Thorpe |
#30
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He was "honestly nothing more than league average his last 8 seasons"?
Here is where Gretzky ranked in points his last 8 seasons: '91-92 (3rd) '92-93 (outside of top 20... missed 38 games) '93-94 (1st) '94-95 (19th) '95-96 (12th) '96-97 (tied 4th) '97-98 (tied 3rd) '98-99 (outside of top 20... missed 12 games) Lemieux may have started his career with some poor teams, but Gretzky ended his career with poor teams. Goal rates are absolutely skewed when you take 4 seasons away from Lemieux in the decline phase of his career during the peak of the neutral zone trap. Maybe not as skewed as a player like Bossy, but it does make Lemieux look better when you try and extrapolate his numbers. Looking at his career arc, I think if Lemieux hadn't had cancer and got a couple of injury seasons back he realistically could have cracked 2500 points, but he wouldn't have beaten Gretzky's 2857. If you want to argue Lemieux's 199 point season was better than any of Gretzky's four 200+ seasons, you might be right. Still even after adjusting for teams, it would only be marginally better and Gretzky had an insanely high peak for 14 seasons while Lemieux's insanely high peak lasted about 10 seasons. Again, Gretzky's linemates look better in large part because they got to play with Wayne Gretzky. Kurri is probably a HOFer anywhere he plays, and Coffey certainly is, but their numbers are vastly inflated by playing with the greatest play maker of all time much more so than Gretzky's numbers are inflated by playing shifts with them. I get that you are from Pittsburgh and absolutely should idolize Mario, but you are misremembering or misrepresenting how good Gretzky was even in those last few years and while even the most generous cherry picking of stats puts Lemieux in Gretzky's league I don't see how one could argue that he surpasses Gretzky. Quote:
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#31
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My average comment may have been a little uninformed, so I stand corrected on where Wayne finished in overall points each of those seasons. I was simply looking at his production and not where in the league scoring standings he finished which was the wrong way to go about that.
I am from Pittsburgh, but I didn't grow up here but I've always been a hockey fan. I am keenly aware of having watched both Wayne and Mario play throughout their careers and its just my opinion that Mario was a better player than Gretzky. But I do enjoy the banter and conversation. |
#32
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and Mario had none! Gretzky had 11 seasons with over 100 assist and Mario had only one, Gretzky had 2 seasons of 87 or more goals and Mario had none YOU HAVE A POINT! you are from Pittsburgh. |
#33
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/
Last edited by howard38; 09-10-2020 at 04:00 PM. |
#34
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Baseball: Ruth/Cobb
Basketball: Jordan Football: Rice Hockey: Gretzky/Orr/Howe (change my mind constantly) with Lemieux in 4th. For me, the hockey debate comes down to what you prioritize in a player, as the top 4 are fairly interchangeable on peak value alone. You can certainly make an argument that Lemieux was the most skilled player ever, or that he was a better goal scorer than Gretzky, but it's not really arguable that he had a better career. Gretzky literally won scoring titles by 30 and 40% margins, consecutively from 81-82 to 86-87. He also led by almost 20% in 91-92, and almost 18% in 80-81 as a 19 year old. In Lemieux's apex in 88-89, he was a phenomenal 15%+ ahead of second place, but note how this still pales in comparison to the kind of dominance Gretzky put in year in and out during his peak. As far as consistent dominance related to his peers on a purely numerical aspect, only Howe can even be argued to be in Gretzky's league among forwards. Lemieux certainly had the ability to do so, and did some years, but didn't do it nearly as consistently, or for as long as Gretzky or Howe. Obviously that doesn't tell the whole story, but it's a far better quantification of relative dominance than raw stats. Quote:
The argument for Gretzky's career is what he did. The argument for Lemieux's is what he could have done. |
#35
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Baseball: Babe Ruth and putting anyone on his level is a mistake
Football: Jim Brown and Otto Graham (just a pure winner and the most overlooked of the great QB's) Hockey: Wayne Gretzky, Bobby Orr and Gordie Howe (stealing a spot not used for baseball) Basketball: Oscar Robertson (c'mon, he averaged a triple double for a SEASON!!!) and Michael Jordan
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MOO, Scott Collecting: 1948 Leaf Football Master Set (PSA 7 or better - PSA 6 or better for High Numbers), 1948 Leaf Football White Backgrounds, 1948 Leaf Football On-card Autographs, Wire Photos or Original Photos depicting images used for the 1948 Leaf Football issue -- circa 1880-1909 Football cabinets |
#36
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Baseball: Ruth, Mathewson
Football: Unitas, Brown Hockey: Gretsky, Orr Basketball: Wilt the Stilt, Bird |
#37
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