T206 production/printing questions/comments

[caramelcard]

Ted,

That card actually makes no sense to me at all and there's about two
of them in the world so it doesn't really prove much. In fact, there's no reason why they would restrike that back.

Also, that doesn't look to me like the same thickness in font and the same color as the SC backs.

What is your opinion on why they were overstriking the cards?

Were they printing them and then deciding very quickly that they need to go to another factory and then overstriking them?

Rob

[caramelcard]

And I do think that it makes total sense that the fronts and backs were both printed in the same place, I'm just curious about the purpose of the overstriking.

The "low-paid employees that operated cigarette rolling machinery" could've stamped the backs of the T212s and T209s.

Whoever did the SC overstrikes didn't exactly do a great job either.

Rob

[tedzan]

Rob

Here is my Willetts card which has a Factory #42 overstrike. I show you this one since the overstrike is offset and clearly reveals that this card was originally printed with a Factory #30
back. The subjects in the 350/460 series (except the 6 super-prints) that were printed with SWEET CAPORAL 350-460 Factory #30 were never issued. Instead, American Litho. modified
them with the Factory #42 overprint in order to ship them to the Durham plant in North Carolina. We can only surmise that this was done due to the impending divesture of the American
Tobacco Co. in 1911.







TED Z

[steve B]

Originally Posted by caramelcard

Ted,

That card actually makes no sense to me at all and there's about two
of them in the world so it doesn't really prove much. In fact, there's no reason why they would restrike that back.

Also, that doesn't look to me like the same thickness in font and the same color as the SC backs.

What is your opinion on why they were overstriking the cards?

Were they printing them and then deciding very quickly that they need to go to another factory and then overstriking them?

Rob

It makes as much sense as any other printers scrap.

They use sheets to setup the press.
Sometimes they use new sheets.
Sometimes they use sheets with defects.

So a sheet used to setup the 649 OP was used to also setup and test brown OM.

Pretty simple.

The 649 overprints and the 42 overprints are for different reasons.

The F42s are as Ted says probably due to changing the site of production, consolidating it from factories 25 and 30 to factory 42. Preparation for the breakup of the trust seems a likely reason.

F649 ---I think was probably either a decision to produce some SC in that factory maybe because of a problem in another plant or to catch up to an increase in demand. 649 was probably less busy than the other plants.

My alternate theory is that SC production has something to do with Plank. The existing packing logs show a specific notation "for other than philadelphia area" which at the least indicates regional distribution.

As a temporary thing they wouldn't have had cards made with 649 backs for a brand that 649 usually didn't produce. The simplest thing is to have ones made for a different factory overprinted.


Steve B

[teetwoohsix]

[QUOTE=steve B;1108591]

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

I'll take a stab at what the factories would have had. More educated guess than anything but having worked in manufacturing plants a lot I figure I've got a good feel for what makes sense.

What they would produce were complete packs of cigarettes. The plant would generally be setup for that and not much else.

So they would have a machine that would cut and fold the boxes and other cardboard pack materials. And one that would pack the cigarettes in foil inside the pack then wrap and seal it. Foil/pack/product/card/outer label/cellophane/tax stamp. A busy concern might have all those functions built in one machine. A more general producer might have different machines that would allow some easy flexibility in package size.

Shipping what would be basically empty boxes assuming slide and shell packages would be silly. If the box was a half inch high two boxes assembed would take about as much space as 25 shipped flat. (very rough calculation based on a guess that the cardboard was about as thick as a modern card.)They'd be shipped flat. Once presses fed by rolls of paper became common the wrappers would be shipped in rolls.

The packaging machines either could take a box that wasn't finished and fold and glue it into a box. Typically if the box will be made by the packing machine or a box machine the printing plant will supply them die cut so the flaps are ready to be folded.

What they might have printed was the cancellation on the tax stamp that was the last thing applied to the pack. By 1910 the post office was supplying rolls of stamps to companies for use in bulk mailing machines (And vending machines) But the cancels were still largely applied at the post office.
Companies like cigarette companies were responsible for cancelling the tax stamps when they were applied.

That would be the most likely thing printed by the distribution plant. The process isn't lithography but a form of typography. Usually a metal roller that got inked and then printed the cancel as the stamps ran through the machine.

I'm not positive these stamps came in rolls, but it seems likely. I may be able to find out.
of the stamps shown at this link, the left one is actually an ATC cancelled stamp from march 1911.
http://www.rdhinstl.com/tpd/cigarette.jpg

I found this picture of a packing plant, but it's not very good.




Very few companies have run a plant of any sort that produced the entire product or nearly the entire product including packaging etc. The only one I know of was Fords River Rouge plant - Ore in cars out.

Steve B

Thanks for the response Steve, but check out this link:

http://www.learnnc.org/lp/editions/nchist-newsouth/4402

One paragraph, in particular, says this:

" Factories in North Carolina began printing cigarette-packaging material, such as labels, cartons, and containers, and produced cigarette paper, tipping, and filter rods. other suppliers furnished tinfoil, cellophane, and poly-film".

So, I think they were printing more than the cancellation on the tax stamp.

For the record, I know the ALC was printing both backs and fronts. I just wondered if at some point, due to the heavy production, they may have found it to be a bit easier to have the backs of the more popular brands (Piedmont & Sweet Caporal) printed at the factories. I'm not saying it was, just wondering if it could have been possible.

Another thing, it seems odd in a way that after printing these beautiful fronts, that they would then slap a sheet of freshly printed backs on top of the fronts (causing WST's). But, in a scenario where the sheets were shipped (uncut) to the factories with the pre-printed fronts, these people printing the backs and stacking them wouldn't be taking any pride in the beautiful work done on the fronts. Hence, the WST's.

*Disclaimer* I need to again point out that none of what I suggested above should be taken as factual whatsoever- I'm just drumming up conversation based on pure specualtion and nothing more.

Sincerely, Clayton

[Runscott]

[QUOTE=teetwoohsix;1109139]

Originally Posted by steve B

Another thing, it seems odd in a way that after printing these beautiful fronts, that they would then slap a sheet of freshly printed backs on top of the fronts (causing WST's). But, in a scenario where the sheets were shipped (uncut) to the factories with the pre-printed fronts, these people printing the backs and stacking them wouldn't be taking any pride in the beautiful work done on the fronts. Hence, the WST's.

Clayton, perhaps they were in a hurry and didn't want to wait any longer than possible for the backs to dry.

Also, WST's are most common with Sweet Cap and Tolstoi, and I believe Polar Bear, but there are other brands where you never see WST's. Does it have something to do with the quality of the ink? Or could it be, as you theorized, that the backs were printed at a different place for some cards?

A good exercise would be to gather data on which backs (including factory,series,OP's) are most likely to have WST's. It might give us more clues about how/where they were printed.

[steve B]

[QUOTE=teetwoohsix;1109139]

Originally Posted by steve B

Thanks for the response Steve, but check out this link:

http://www.learnnc.org/lp/editions/nchist-newsouth/4402

One paragraph, in particular, says this:

" Factories in North Carolina began printing cigarette-packaging material, such as labels, cartons, and containers, and produced cigarette paper, tipping, and filter rods. other suppliers furnished tinfoil, cellophane, and poly-film".

So, I think they were printing more than the cancellation on the tax stamp.

For the record, I know the ALC was printing both backs and fronts. I just wondered if at some point, due to the heavy production, they may have found it to be a bit easier to have the backs of the more popular brands (Piedmont & Sweet Caporal) printed at the factories. I'm not saying it was, just wondering if it could have been possible.

Another thing, it seems odd in a way that after printing these beautiful fronts, that they would then slap a sheet of freshly printed backs on top of the fronts (causing WST's). But, in a scenario where the sheets were shipped (uncut) to the factories with the pre-printed fronts, these people printing the backs and stacking them wouldn't be taking any pride in the beautiful work done on the fronts. Hence, the WST's.

*Disclaimer* I need to again point out that none of what I suggested above should be taken as factual whatsoever- I'm just drumming up conversation based on pure specualtion and nothing more.

Sincerely, Clayton

That's very interesting. It would be interesting to know which factories.

As I read it it doesn't specifically say that the factories in NC that were producing the paper and doing the printing were the same factories that made the cigarettes and packed them.

Manufacturing is all about producing the object as cost effectively as possible.

So.....
Possible?
For the printing yes, possible. But unlikely. They would need a press, a camera or artist to make the plates, a separate room for each, and workers who knew how to run them. Possibly a cutter as well, although I think cutting locally wouldbe by far the most likely.

For boxes? Ok, I'd buy that. Lots of automatic packing machines produce the package from rolls of material. And a box folding machine is small and doesn't require a whole lot of training to operate. Even if the boxes were printed at ALC they were almost certainly folded in the packing plant.

For the papermaking? Having lived in a paper town(Dalton Mass, Home of Cranes who make among other things the paper for Us currency) I'll go on a limb and say "No way" The equipment is too large too specialized and takes too much knowledge and skill to run for nearly anyone to just start making paper at their plant. And I'm not talking about artsy paper with dried flowers and stuff in it, that can be made at home with a window screen,blender and a bucket. Cigarette paper takes a load more skill and equipment. Even into the 1920's the companies supplying paper for stamps had recurring quality control issues and that's fairly simple paper.


A smaller brand would be very likely to use a local printer. If nothing else, it would save on shipping costs and with reduced shipping time allow a bit of flexibility in ordering.
A huge concern like ATC would have been more likely to stay with a printer like ALC. Their savings would be in volume discounts and consistency in the packaging. In other words, If I'm ordering 30 thousand wrappers and expect that to be 3 months supply for my one factory I'll go with the local printer. If I'm ordering a few million wrappers for at least 5 plants and 16 brands I want a plant that's big enough to handle that. And I'll get a lower cost.

The biggest cost in lithography and most other forms of printing is making the color separations and halftones. The figure I heard as typical when I was working in the print shop was roughly $100/ color just to produce the negatives. The job I had them do the year after I left cost just about that for one color 16x20 And that was a special price for myself and the school department partly based on my accepting whatever paper they chose. They picked some nice stuff, good weight with a bit of texture They had a couple hundred leftover sheets of that and about 50-75 sheets of some even nicer stuff.


All the colors got stacked when printing. The press prints the sheet and places it in a stack of just finished sheets. They run maybe a foot or so worth of sheets then remove the small cart they're on and put in another. The sheets dry with a bit of air space between them, but still stacked. After a little while the stacks are put together into a larger stack on a pallet. That goes for each front color and the backs. The sheets on the bottom are the driest, but also have more weight on them. Stack too high too soon and you'll get an offset transfer. Lean on the stack and you'll get a small area of really great offset transfer on the top 50+sheets. (I'm positive of that from personal experience, not one of my better days at work ) Setting a box or tool on the pile will also make a nice localized transfer. - (Coworkers bad day at work, I think most of us learned the hard way.)

Note- different types of printing done at different paces will be done differently. Typography done with care like for an art press special edition book or for art prints will usually be done individually and hung individually to dry. Newspapers are printed at a frantic pace from rolls of paper (Web fed presses) and are cut and folded wet by a machine that's an extensio of the press. Nearly everything else falls somewhere in between.

Steve B

[teetwoohsix]

[QUOTE=Runscott;1109250]

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

Clayton, perhaps they were in a hurry and didn't want to wait any longer than possible for the backs to dry.

Also, WST's are most common with Sweet Cap and Tolstoi, and I believe Polar Bear, but there are other brands where you never see WST's. Does it have something to do with the quality of the ink? Or could it be, as you theorized, that the backs were printed at a different place for some cards?

A good exercise would be to gather data on which backs (including factory,series,OP's) are most likely to have WST's. It might give us more clues about how/where they were printed.

Well, my theory about the WST's has many holes, and shouldn't be taken as anything but a theory with nothing to back it. It may make sense to me, but be completely off the mark. What may seem logical to me in our era may not have made sense in 1910,,,,,but I figure tossing out theories may get people's minds going and somehow it will help nail down some things.

It may be as simple as your first statement, they may have been in a rush and not so focused on a light transfer on the front.

Plus, there are cards that have a WST from a different brand on the front than is on the back-even from different factories. This is why I say-* don't take any of this as fact* because, it's not.

My main focus is to nail down what was being printed at the tobacco factories. I have a strong feeling that some of the packaging was being printed at the factories, and if I can find proof of that than it wouldn't seem too far fetched to find proff that the possibility that SOME of the backs COULD have been printed at the factories. The link in my last post was the closest I have found so far. And it's all just speculation for now. I'm spending a lot of time researching on the web,trying to find pertinant information.

Sincerely, Clayton

[teetwoohsix]

Hi Steve-

Just quoting part of your post here:

" That's very interesting. It would be interesting to know which factories.

As I read it it doesn't specifically say that the factories in NC that were producing the paper and doing the printing were the same factories that made the cigarettes and packed them.

Manufacturing is all about producing the object as cost effectively as possible.

So.....
Possible?
For the printing yes, possible. But unlikely. They would need a press, a camera or artist to make the plates, a separate room for each, and workers who knew how to run them. Possibly a cutter as well, although I think cutting locally wouldbe by far the most likely."

Yeah, I'm still trying to dig further for more specifics, but from what I've been finding, these tobacco factories where more advanced than the factories of low skilled workers of say, the 1850's. What I'm trying to really nail down is the fact that I believe some of the factories did actually print their own packaging as part of the whole process. I would like to find out where those Piedmont uncut pack sheets were discovered. Those, to me, seem like something that would be printed at the tobacco factory, as that write up stated (the article was about tobacco factories, although I don't know which ones.)

As we can see, a lot of information from the eighties turned out to be (unintentionally) wrong, or off mark. Discovering new information is not a bad thing, if it is accurate. I will never present this as fact, unless I'm 100% sure. But, I enjoy talking about these things more than I do talking about some of the other topics on the board lately (no offense meant to anyone).

And-I'm not trying to re-invent the wheel either

If I can find anything worthy, I will post more. Thanks to everyone who's jumped in the fray

Sincerely, Clayton

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

c'mon Clayton...didn't you read the forum rules? Only Ted is allowed to beat dead horses here?!

I do not feel myself unless I can beat a dead horse every now and again- sorry Ted

Sincerely, Clayton

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

Plus, there are cards that have a WST from a different brand on the front than is on the back-even from different factories. This is why I say-* don't take any of this as fact* because, it's not.

...
Sincerely, Clayton

Those aren't WST's during production - those are from collectors.

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Those aren't WST's during production - those are from collectors.

Not saying they are or aren't- but, I think a board member tried to do a WST as an experiment and had no luck (Steve?) using moisture and pressure. Maybe one could do it with chemicals, but why bother? There's no huge mark up for a WST.

Sincerely, Clayton

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

Not saying they are or aren't- but, I think a board member tried to do a WST as an experiment and had no luck (Steve?) using moisture and pressure. Maybe one could do it with chemicals, but why bother? There's no huge mark up for a WST.

Sincerely, Clayton

You waited 100 years for his experiment to end?

[teetwoohsix]

Originally Posted by Runscott

You waited 100 years for his experiment to end?

I don't think I'll be able to know what waiting 100 years for anything will feel like

But seriously, I can't say for certain how or when WST's happened- I'm not sure about the moist environment/ compression over years thing....I think if that were the case soaking cards would release some of the ink. But rather than focus on WST's, I'd like to really figure out exactly what was being printed at the tobacco factories. And, I'm more focused on finding out if the packaging (in some cases) were printed at the factories more than if the backs were. I'm ok with the ALC printing the fronts and the backs, as I can't find proof that they weren't.

But, I've found a link that I posted which states that tobacco factories were printing packaging material, and there's another post in this thread that refers to printing equiptment in the tobacco factories. I don't think this is too far fetched.

So,,,,,could that Piedmont sheet of uncut packs have been printed at the tobaccco factory?

Sincerely, Clayton

[steve B]

Originally Posted by teetwoohsix

Not saying they are or aren't- but, I think a board member tried to do a WST as an experiment and had no luck (Steve?) using moisture and pressure. Maybe one could do it with chemicals, but why bother? There's no huge mark up for a WST.

Sincerely, Clayton

Yep, that was me. Soaking wet card wrapped in paper and clamped in a vise for a couple weeks.

I wasn't expecting water to do anything. The inks are oil based so water really shouldn't have any effect whatsoever.

I'll eventually escalate to alcohol, then an oil based solvent. One of those should produce a result.

And if Alcohol works it means the inks were based on a non-petroleum oil like linseed oil or shellac. And those sometimes won't truly harden in over a century. See the stamp card proof that left an offset over a century after printing that I posted.

Pressure and vibration may do it, but I don't have the ability to test that. I could maybe build a machine, but that's got a bit of expense and effort. If someone wants to fund it I'd be open to discussing it.



I'd still like to see more specific info on which factories were printing what. It would be interesting as its own information.

Steev B