Another Probstein LOL

[bnorth]

Check out the winning bidder on this auction http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Bowman-...p2047675.l2557

Now the same exact card is for sale also through Probstein123 and check out the high bidder. LOL yes the same person that won it last time around. http://www.ebay.com/itm/370940311656...656%26_rdc%3D1
That Rick must be a great seller to sell the same card to the same person twice in a few weeks.LOL

[Peter_Spaeth]

Bid History: Details


Bidding Details

Bidder Information
Bidder: 1***a ( 499Feedback score is 100 to 499)
Feedback: 100% Positive
Item description: Item Title: 1952 Bowman #101 Mickey Mantle New York Yankees HOF BVG 4.5 VG-EX+
Bids on this item: 4
30-Day Summary
Total bids: 671
Items bid on: 274
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 84% Help
Bid retractions: 1
Bid retractions (6 months): 4

[Section103]

...and for $160 more!!!

[CMIZ5290]

Oh my God, here we go again. Forget the belly aching, what can be done about it? Has anyone notified Ebay from the past 50- 60 threads that have been started here over the past 2 years?? I highly doubt it... Why does this always happen every 2-3 weeks, but not a freaking thing gets done? What's the point? It's almost like being in the Twilight zone......Oh, and here comes something about Brent and PWCC.....Rick is laughing his ass off all the way to the bank....People are always responding to these threads, "well, it's good for every one to be warned, and know who the bad guys are in the hobby..." But yet, it evidently keeps on happening.... At the end of the day, not a damn thing gets done, so why the wasted energy?

[nsaddict]

And the underbidder with 248 feedbacks, also has 84% bid history with Rick.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by nsaddict

And the underbidder with 248 feedbacks, also has 84% bid history with Rick.

Just to clarify, is this yet another indictment on Rick, or a comfirmation on how stupid people can be, including Ebay?

[nsaddict]

My personal opinion, I don't think Rick spends any time trying to figure any of this stuff out. I think he could and should put more effort into keeping the auctions clean. In this particular auction it's a no brainer. The previous winner is bidding on this exact card again that he had won from Rick less than a month ago. You will get no complaint from Ebay either. I don't like it, but the best thing to combat this is to NOT bid in his auctions. Many will bitch about it but still bid with him???

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by nsaddict

My personal opinion, I don't think Rick spends any time trying to figure any of this stuff out. I think he could and should put more effort into keeping the auctions clean. In this particular auction it's a no brainer. The previous winner is bidding on this exact card again that he had won from Rick less than a month ago. You will get no complaint from Ebay either. I don't like it, but the best thing to combat this is to NOT bid in his auctions. Many will bitch about it but still bid with him???

Richard- I agree, but yet they keep bidding, and bidding, and bidding...How in the hell can Ebay allow this if there is in fact "misconduct" or wrong doing? There have been several threads on this forum pertaining bid shilling and other acts by the Seller that are not allowable, by both Ebay rules and the law in general. But yet, here we are......

[CW]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Oh my God, here we go again. Forget the belly aching, what can be done about it? Has anyone notified Ebay from the past 50- 60 threads that have been started here over the past 2 years?? I highly doubt it... Why does this always happen every 2-3 weeks, but not a freaking thing gets done? What's the point? It's almost like being in the Twilight zone......Oh, and here comes something about Brent and PWCC.....Rick is laughing his ass off all the way to the bank....People are always responding to these threads, "well, it's good for every one to be warned, and know who the bad guys are in the hobby..." But yet, it evidently keeps on happening.... At the end of the day, not a damn thing gets done, so why the wasted energy?

On one hand I can see what you're saying, in that nothing will ultimately be done by Ebay or Rick to put a stop to this.

However, one way that these types of posts could possibly help is by educating the consumer so he or she can make the choice on their own to put an end to it by not bidding on Rick's auctions, or on a broader scale, not bidding on Ebay auctions in general.

Avoiding Ebay altogether is the better solution, imo, since I put the majority of the blame for shill bidding on the shill bidders themselves and Ebay for creating an environment where it can run rampant. I don't put much of the blame, if any, for shill bidding on Probstein or PWCC, as I trust that they do not shill their own auctions.

So while the seller may not have the tools to monitor 1000s of auctions, and while Ebay could give a shit since more bids means more money to their bottom line, these threads can educate consumers to avoid blatant shill bidding.

For the record, I will still occasionally bid on an Ebay auction, as I am addicted to the hobby and it's a necessary evil at times. Still, they've lost A LOT of my business over the years.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by CW

On one hand I can see what you're saying, in that nothing will ultimately be done by Ebay or Rick to put a stop to this.

However, one way that these types of posts could possibly help is by educating the consumer so he or she can make the choice on their own to put an end to it by not bidding on Rick's auctions, or on a broader scale, not bidding on Ebay auctions in general.

Avoiding Ebay altogether is the better solution, imo, since I put the majority of the blame for shill bidding on the shill bidders themselves and Ebay for creating an environment where it can run rampant. I don't put much of the blame, if any, for shill bidding on Probstein or PWCC, as I trust that they do not shill their own auctions.

So while the seller may not have the tools to monitor 1000s of auctions, and while Ebay could give a shit since more bids means more money to their bottom line, these threads can educate consumers to avoid blatant shill bidding.

For the record, I will still occasionally bid on an Ebay auction, as I am addicted to the hobby and it's a necessary evil at times. Still, they've lost A LOT of my business over the years.

Chuck- I hear you. But again going back to my earlier post, avoiding these auctions where there is particular concern has not worked, definitely not worked. People keep coming to the trough to drink as far as these auctions go. My biggest frustration is that if nothing can in fact be done, why in the hell keep harping on it?? Why do we insist on coming back for more and more punishment??

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Chuck- I hear you. But again going back to my earlier post, avoiding these auctions where there is particular concern has not worked, definitely not worked. People keep coming to the trough to drink as far as these auctions go. My biggest frustration is that if nothing can in fact be done, why in the hell keep harping on it?? Why do we insist on coming back for more and more punishment??

Every time one of these posts about Probstein pop up you post more than most, and it's almost always complaining that people are wasting their time. This seems ironic to me.

[autograf]

Hmm....maybe it'll be sold to the underbidder on a second chance.....fishy stuff at best.....

[hangman62]

I agree..it is a waste of time...nothing gets resolved..sour grapes..all that...but if you add this simple phrase at the end of any complaint or bitch

- " IM JUST SAYIN "

....it makes it all acceptable and right

[Pythonfactory]

Aren't new people joining this forum every day? Aren't there members who visit infrequently? Is it a bad decision to educate them on what to look out for when bidding on Ebay?

I've, *gasp*, bid with Brent and watched some items from Probstein since these revelations but you can be damn sure that I've watched the bidder's history on them all, tried to find any previous sales history, and backed away at the first sign of anything fishy. If it weren't for these threads, I would have never known to look and wouldn't have walked away from some items.

To summarize, I completely disagree with you Kevin. Sure, as an individual buyer, I cannot completely change the system but pointing these things out does make a difference, even if its only a small one.

[Sean1125]

Do any single one of you people bashing Rick actually try and send him an E-mail?

He was pretty quick to act when I did.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Sean1125

Do any single one of you people bashing Rick actually try and send him an E-mail?

He was pretty quick to act when I did.

Yes he probably did act pretty quick for you, you consign a ton of cards through him. Yes members on here have emailed Rick. He was told about a Bill Russell auto he was selling as basketball HOFer Bill Russell when it was really Bill Russell the baseball player who has little to no value. He said thank you for the info but left the auction listing the same.

[Sean1125]

Two very different issues. One can be handled by a return and some hassle, the other is illegal.

[nsaddict]

Just noticed the bidder in question has had his bid canceled less than an hour ago. No doubt in my mind this post had something to do with it!

[deucetwins]

Thanks to this forum, I no longer bid on anything from Probstein123. PWCC is getting close to me drawing the curtain on them as well. The message is getting out.


je.ff Carp.enter

[markf31]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Oh my God, here we go again. Forget the belly aching, what can be done about it? Has anyone notified Ebay from the past 50- 60 threads that have been started here over the past 2 years?? I highly doubt it... Why does this always happen every 2-3 weeks, but not a freaking thing gets done? What's the point? It's almost like being in the Twilight zone......Oh, and here comes something about Brent and PWCC.....Rick is laughing his ass off all the way to the bank....People are always responding to these threads, "well, it's good for every one to be warned, and know who the bad guys are in the hobby..." But yet, it evidently keeps on happening.... At the end of the day, not a damn thing gets done, so why the wasted energy?

I disagree that nothing gets done or accomplished by bringing these items and auctions up for discussion on the board.

Originally Posted by Pythonfactory

I've, *gasp*, bid with Brent and watched some items from Probstein since these revelations but you can be damn sure that I've watched the bidder's history on them all, tried to find any previous sales history, and backed away at the first sign of anything fishy. If it weren't for these threads, I would have never known to look and wouldn't have walked away from some items.

Originally Posted by deucetwins

Thanks to this forum, I no longer bid on anything from Probstein123. PWCC is getting close to me drawing the curtain on them as well. The message is getting out.

That's two people who are more aware now of situations like this and have modified their behavior as a direct result of threads like this, and I'll add myself into that group as well and I'm pretty certain the 3 of us are not the only ones.

So while threads like this might not impact the consignors or Ebay significantly and I'll even agree they don't seem to impact consignors or Ebay at all, threads like this do help foster a slightly more informed and protected group of buyers/collectors and I think that's a positive point worthy of the threads being posted.

Think of it this way. Not everyone checks in with the Better Business Bureau before doing business with a company, to research how that particular company ranks with the BBB, or to inquire about that companies complaint and customer satisfaction history. In fact, in just about every instance, I would argue a consumer doesn't know that a particular company rates poorly with the BBB until they have an unsatisfactory experience with that company and choose to file a complaint with the BBB.

So would you argue that filing complaints with the BBB is useless because you never see direct results from your complaint? Your complaint, or a million complaints, to the BBB won't shut a company down, and in many cases a company with a poor BBB history won't change its business practices because the complaints themselves don't change their bottom dollar, so whats the point? The point is the BBB allows consumers an avenue to be a little better informed IF they chose to utilize the information at their disposal and do a little research.

Its my opinion that if each of these threads posted about consignors and items effects just one buyer/collector per thread, creates just one buyer/collector who is just slightly more aware and informed, well I think that's a great thing! I'm sure if you ask that one buyers/collector if they thought the thread accomplished something they would emphatically say yes!

[calvindog]

Mark, of course, is correct. Bringing the fraud to light that repeatedly occurs in Probstein and PWCC auctions can only be a good thing -- unless you are a consigner to these auctions and you're worried about less bidding on your items. That we would have posters on this board complaining about discussions of this fraud is really mind-numbing; however, again, the motives of such naysayers are obvious.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by deucetwins

Thanks to this forum, I no longer bid on anything from Probstein123. PWCC is getting close to me drawing the curtain on them as well. The message is getting out.

+1 I am proud to say I that have not bid on any Probstein items since it was confirmed that he condones consignors shilling their own items.

Originally Posted by calvindog

That we would have posters on this board complaining about discussions of this fraud is really mind-numbing...

+1 to this as well.

[ullmandds]

I also have not bid on any Probstein...or PWCC auctions since things have come to light...and if I were to I would scrutinize bidding history with a fine tooth comb.

To say bringing these issues up is not doing anything...is a waste of time...is just plain ignorant.

Seems to me the ones who keep standing up for the accused...are most likely those who have been benefitting from such activities?

[markf31]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Chuck- I hear you. But again going back to my earlier post, avoiding these auctions where there is particular concern has not worked, definitely not worked. People keep coming to the trough to drink as far as these auctions go. My biggest frustration is that if nothing can in fact be done, why in the hell keep harping on it?? Why do we insist on coming back for more and more punishment??

No one is forcing you to read or reply to these threads. If you don't care for them and think they are a waste of time, then don't waste your own time in reading or replying to the threads, let those of us who believe they are worthwhile, devote our time to them.

[Sean1125]

People can assume anything they want, it doesn't mean it is true.

The consigners who don't mess with auctions far exceed those who do.

Why individuals let one, two, even ten auctions out of twenty to thirty thousand in a month affect what they think of Rick is beyond me. The bids are likely from the same few toxic individuals and I would think if pointed out they will either be spoken to and given a warning or banned all together. It didn't seem anyone actually pointed this one out until I had e-mailed Rick.

I would challenge any member here to find a card of mine that they think has an unnatural bidding history, you won't - every card I've ever auctioned I am comfortable with the risk of auction. I've had major "scores" where cards shatter VCP by 60%, 100% - I've had major losses where I've paid $1800 for something and net $1000... Sometimes you win sometimes you lose.

[Gradedcardman]

I read about the complaints and agree. I don't see how one person states that others should call eBay but yet they won't. Strange but that's the way it goes.

I consigned to PWCC and did not have any "help" and lost money in the long run. I simply wouldn't shill them up hoping one day maybe I would be able to buy something at a favorable price as well. My mistake.

[nolemmings]

Why individuals let one, two, even ten auctions out of twenty to thirty thousand in a month affect what they think of Rick is beyond me.

So be it.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Gradedcardman

I read about the complaints and agree. I don't see how one person states that others should call eBay but yet they won't. Strange but that's the way it goes.

I consigned to PWCC and did not have any "help" and lost money in the long run. I simply wouldn't shill them up hoping one day maybe I would be able to buy something at a favorable price as well. My mistake.

You did the right thing. Karma is a killer. Those consignors that are shilling their own stuff will get their just dues. And I also agree with Sean somewhat. I will still bid on Probstein stuff and PWCC stuff but know that I will be very careful in doing so. My only concern with those 2 sellers is that they could maybe do a little more in banning ebayers that have crappy tendencies, which we have all seen. I firmly don't believe Rick or Brent conspire in the shilling. A little more diligence, when called attention to, is all I would ask for.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Leon

I firmly don't believe Rick or Brent conspire in the shilling.

It was pointed out to Rick over a year ago that Joe Panky was shilling his own auctions. Rick did absolutely nothing about it. He may not be conspiring in it, but he is certainly condoning it by doing nothing about it and still allowing it to happen. To me, that speaks volumes about Rick's character.

[calvindog]

Yeah, Probstein is clean as a whistle. Here's a Christy Mathewson signed ball which ended on ebay just a couple days ago: http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=370937104344

The ball sold for $8990, solely because the underbidder put in a bid at about $1600 above the third bidder for the ball, three days before the ebay auction ended -- and the underbidder just happens to bid in Probstein's auctions 94% of the time. Curiously, the underbidder's bid of $8890 is almost identical to what the ball sold for in the 2013 REA auction ($8887): http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/...85.html#photos

My guess is that either the underbidder/shill bidder won the ball in the REA auction and didn't want to lose any money on the ebay sale which is why his placeholder bid was identical to the REA price -- or that Rick Probstein himself won the ball in REA and sold it in his own auction above, shilling his own ball.

I'll email Rick now and ask him if this ball was indeed his.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

It was pointed out to Rick over a year ago that Joe Panky was shilling his own auctions. Rick did absolutely nothing about it. He may not be conspiring in it, but he is certainly condoning it by doing nothing about it and still allowing it to happen. To me, that speaks volumes about Rick's character.

I am in agreement David. As I said, I think the large ebay sellers need to do more to prevent fraud. By any of them not taking action, when pointed out, I can see your point.


And to Jeff- I would be surprised if Rick won the ball and shills, or has someone else shill, his own auctions. I am not saying that more doesn't need to be done. It does. And I also think these threads help expose issues. Anyone that doesn't see that should stick their head back in the sand.

[smtjoy]

"+1 I am proud to say I that have not bid on any Probstein items since it was confirmed that he condones consignors shilling their own items. "

+2 I have not bid on any of his auctions in over a year, I just cant support this bs. It's been tough as I have had to pass on a ton of cards I would have bid up for sure.

Keep on posting these threads as they do any new members a real service and reinforce those not bidding. Also funny how the same few always come and defend his auctions.

[brewing]

I have stopped bidding on 123 and PWCC auctions because of info from this board.
Brent 1ngr@m


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Harliduck]

Count me in as well...and I was a regular buyer from Probstein. I don't need that crap, and I am sure I am one of MANY. So yes, this board has taught me many things (hell, I didn't even consider shilling, how naïve is that)...and one is who not to do business with. Thanks.

[ibuysportsephemera]

Ok, so what I don't get it is that if you shill bid and become the winning high bidder, eBay is charging you 10% fvf. That is an expensive game to play IMO. Am I missing something in this discussion?

Jeff

[t206fix]

Originally Posted by ibuysportsephemera

Ok, so what I don't get it is that if you shill bid and become the winning high bidder, eBay is charging you 10% fvf. That is an expensive game to play IMO. Am I missing something in this discussion?

Jeff

I think that you are allowed to cancel a transaction. The cancelation doesn't show up in any VCP/Cardtarget data, but the buyer/seller discreetly say that the transaction is null and everyone gets back their fees. Wait a few months, and try and sell it again. That's what so concerning about these cards popping up over and over again by the same seller. If I am a consigner, and I sell a card for someone, then I should know it is gone. If the consigner then brings the card back to me to sell again, then I know a. that something is up with the consigner and he's shilling his auctions or b. I'm canceling the transaction and listing at a future date.

That's the great thing about this board and how every little discrepancy is pointed out. Keep these threads coming! Like others have said here, I had no clue that these things were happening until I read it on here. I've purchased items from these guys in the past, and I wonder how many times I've been shilled!!! No more...

[ctownboy]

As a person who has had a recent health scare (and who might not be out of the woods yet), I have a REAL problem with people who shill their own auctions, people who allow it to happen and people who condone such actions.

For those who are defending the people who do these actions, you might not care NOW. However, if you have overpaid for items you have won in auctions (because of shenanigans) and at a later date have to sell them and find that the prices you are selling for are less (maybe even considerably less) then I think you WILL care that you were shilled on those items when you bought them.

If you don't, then your family members or heirs (or whomever is selling the items) certainly will especially if they know how much the items were purchased for and how much they are expecting (hoping) to receive when selling them.....

David

[lharri3600]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Check out the winning bidder on this auction http://www.ebay.com/itm/1952-Bowman-...p2047675.l2557

Now the same exact card is for sale also through Probstein123 and check out the high bidder. LOL yes the same person that won it last time around. http://www.ebay.com/itm/370940311656...656%26_rdc%3D1
That Rick must be a great seller to sell the same card to the same person twice in a few weeks.LOL

Hold on,
Yes it's the same card, but it looks like 2 different winners. What am I missing?? Is it possible 1***a won it in October then Member Id: l***x (1761) won it in November?

[nsaddict]

Larry,

1***a bid high on it the second time around but bid was cancelled. Scroll all the way to the bottom of the bid history. Don't know who he is but I feel comfortable labeling him a slim ball!

[Exhibitman]

I agree that exposing these shills over and over is helpful to the people who might not have read the past exposes. At least no one on N54 who reads one of these threads can get ripped off by Probstein or PWCC but claim that they did not know. It may be dull to hear what is effectively the same story again, but the solution is not to read it. The titles are clear enough.

As for eBay, don't hold your breath: its management actively encourages shilling. Used to be a piece of cake to figure out who was shilling; just cross-reference the shilling account with the seller's account. That is how Broadway Rick got nailed:

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/3078735/

eBay tackled the challenge posed by shill bidders by hiding the identities of the underbidders. It greatly reduced the number of complaints about shilling not because the activity ceased but because no one could prove it any longer.

[lharri3600]

Originally Posted by nsaddict

Larry,

1***a bid high on it the second time around but bid was cancelled. Scroll all the way to the bottom of the bid history. Don't know who he is but I feel comfortable labeling him a slim ball!

Thanks Richard

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Every time one of these posts about Probstein pop up you post more than most, and it's almost always complaining that people are wasting their time. This seems ironic to me.

Delete....not worth it..

[ullmandds]

convincing retort, Kevin?!

[jlehma13]

Almost pulled the trigger on a lot of t206's but the high bidder and eventual winner had near 20 bid retractions in 6 months. Still went for a reasonable price but I have to say, after all the chatter here, I was turned off. Perhaps I will see them again...

[drcy]

Those who don't mind being shilled haven't yet sold their collection. I have yet to hear of a collector who was pleased to learn his item sells for 40% less than what he paid.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I agree that exposing these shills over and over is helpful to the people who might not have read the past exposes. At least no one on N54 who reads one of these threads can get ripped off by Probstein or PWCC but claim that they did not know. It may be dull to hear what is effectively the same story again, but the solution is not to read it. The titles are clear enough.

As for eBay, don't hold your breath: its management actively encourages shilling. Used to be a piece of cake to figure out who was shilling; just cross-reference the shilling account with the seller's account. That is how Broadway Rick got nailed:

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/3078735/

eBay tackled the challenge posed by shill bidders by hiding the identities of the underbidders. It greatly reduced the number of complaints about shilling not because the activity ceased but because no one could prove it any longer.

Great post, Adam. I can't help but believe ebay will eventually face legal repercussions for encouraging illegal activity.

[drcy]

In a defense of eBay, I'm sure one reason they block bidder ids was to prevent off eBay sales. I think trying to prevent this was legitimate on their part, as many buyers and sellers abused the system that way.

Having said that, one essential eBay newbie tip I used to give was never to bid in an auction that hid bidder ids, as the practice was mostly used to prevent nefarious activity including shilling and to prevent others from tipping off bidders that an item was a fake or a scam. Then eBay turned and made all bidder ids private.

If it were up to me, bidder ids would be shown, but, as is often the case, eBay users who tried to game the system (breaking the user agreement by using eBay as a cheap advertising for off site sales) are part of the reason eBay hides the ids.

In short, every one's going to Hell. Oh sorry, Leon, I meant to say Heck.

[hangman62]

I have and will continue to bid and buy from Probstein .
Never had a single problem or issue
He gets his hands on loads of good stuff
prices are prices...bidding get carried away sometimes...if you dont like it then dont bid
Why must cry babys keep bringing up the same old sour grapes
You dont think the big auction houses " protect" their rare items in one way or another ?..good ole boys secretly bidding on their own stuff ?
The guys sells tons of stuff... he must be doing something right

Ralph G

[Rob D.]

I wonder if eBay had never shown bidders identities in the first place (email addresses in the early days, followed by user IDs), would people object now to not being able to see them? The reason I wonder is because I don't know of a single auction house in our hobby that shows bidder ids of any kind in its online auctions. Yet that doesn't seem to be an issue for most people, but the inability to see identities on eBay is.

[bobbyw8469]

I have yet to hear of a collector who was pleased to learn his item sells for 40% less than what he paid.

Happens all the time. Welcome to Ebay. I have actually lost more than 40% on items before. Nature of the beast when you run 99 cent auctions.