Those Ramlys in REA Auction

[GregMitch34]

Does the admitted fact that the Mints and Gems were hand cut in 1970s hurt their value somewhat, as reflected in most of the bidding so far? Or will they shoot up at end? Is there some stigma attached to those cards, cut like that? Wondering.

[oldjudge]

Absolutely--trimmed cards that made their way into slabs. Who would have thunk it?

[GregMitch34]

but not considered trimmed because done perfectly from an entire sheet by master?

[oldjudge]

Trimmed is trimmed--EOM

[glchen]

One of the things I saw from the REA description is that the cards were sheet cut by Frank Nagy, who I believe is still well respected in the hobby. Why does he get a pass for this, and Mastro and PSA do not for the T206 Wagner? Is it simply because the Wagner is THE iconic card in the hobby?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by glchen

One of the things I saw from the REA description is that the cards were sheet cut by Frank Nagy, who I believe is still well respected in the hobby. Why does he get a pass for this, and Mastro and PSA do not for the T206 Wagner? Is it simply because the Wagner is THE iconic card in the hobby?

Partly because the Wagner is the most iconic card in the hobby as you said and partly because Mastro and the rest of his crew of criminals lied about it for so long.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by glchen

One of the things I saw from the REA description is that the cards were sheet cut by Frank Nagy, who I believe is still well respected in the hobby. Why does he get a pass for this, and Mastro and PSA do not for the T206 Wagner? Is it simply because the Wagner is THE iconic card in the hobby?

Nagy did not cut them to deceive, Mastro allegedly did.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Nagy did not cut them to deceive, Mastro allegedly did.

It's not allegedly anymore, Bill finally told the truth after 10000 lies once he needed to save himself some jail time.

[drcy]

As far as the Ramleys go, the reason why 105 year old cards have condition sensitive edges and corners is because of the 105 years of exposure. Remove 65 years of exposure and of course they're going to be easier to find in high grade. That alone would explain why a lengthy difference between the dates of the cuts could create a valuation difference between cards in the same grade.

The reason why the Gretzky 1909 T206 Wagner has such sharp corners and clean edges is because they weren't cut in 1909.

[GregMitch34]

But the Ramlys at REA--I presumed the mints and Gems were the ones cut from sheet, and the 6.5s and 7s were from same guy's collection but not cut, just regular (nice) cards. True?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by GregMitch34

But the Ramlys at REA--I presumed the mints and Gems were the ones cut from sheet, and the 6.5s and 7s were from same guy's collection but not cut, just regular (nice) cards. True?

That is my understanding from guys that live and breathe Ramly....

[Rich Klein]

As for Nagy, one thing to remember, his National tables were actually run for many years by .... Rob Lifson and Bill Mastro.

Just an FYI

Rich

[glchen]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Nagy did not cut them to deceive, Mastro allegedly did.

Why did Nagy cut the only known Ramly sheet in the first place? Were uncut sheets not considered special in the hobby during that time?

[Robert_Lifson]

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

As for Nagy, one thing to remember, his National tables were actually run for many years by .... Rob Lifson and Bill Mastro.

Just an FYI

Rich

Hi Rich! FYI: I don’t know anything about this! I don’t even think I ever set up at a National and only paid for a table or was given a badge to get in early to run around. I didn’t even know Nagy had a table at the National. (are you sure?) If he did, I can assure you that I did not run it with Bill Mastro or anyone else!

I also remember paying for tables at the early Willow Grove shows too but just never set up. The promoters were really strict about tables having something on them and eventually let me pay for a “walking” non-existent table so I could get in early!

My understanding is that Nagy cut the Ramly sheet up just so he could store and display the cards in albums with rest of his tobacco cards. He couldn’t put a huge sheet in an album and just wanted them as cards. Sheets have always been rare and special but in the old days there was no universally acknowledged significant premium associated. He didn’t think he was hurting the value by cutting it up. He just wanted the cards for his set. If he were alive today and had the sheet, I doubt he would consider cutting it up, but collectors thought about cards and sheets differently decades ago.

At the “District Center 65” sports card convention in New York City about 1974, William Gardiner brought in a selection of Goudey uncut sheets he saved as a youth. He lived next door to Goudey or the printing company (I forget which, as I type this), and they gave them to him for the asking. Incredibly, he kept them stored as prized possessions and they all remained in just about perfect shape. He put a few in the small auction at the show with a minimum of $200 each and no one bid. Everyone loved them but sheets just didn’t have the history of being valued greater than the cards at this time. As we know, times have changed! I was lucky to be at the show (my Dad drove me and I remember him having to literally drag me out by the hand when it was time to leave. I think I was crying and I mean that literally) Fortunately I made it a point to get William Gardiner’s contact information to further discuss his sheets in the future and I kept in touch with him. I couldn’t believe how cool the uncut sheets were. By chance he wound up moving from New England right to my neighborhood (literally blocks away from my parents’ house), and eventually I wound up helping him sell all his Goudey sheets. But back in the 1970s, they were only valued for the cards on each sheet. Same with the Ramlys!

Sincerely,

Rob L

Robert Edward Auctions LLC

www.robertedwardauctions.com

[Rich Klein]

Rob:

Memory plays funny tricks on people and I'll accept that you and Bill never set up at Frank's table togehter.

Rich

[glchen]

Thanks, Rob. Really appreciate that detailed explanation. It's too bad the hobby thought of uncut sheets that way back then. It would've been nice to see an uncut Ramly sheet around.