Can't fight City Hall- eBay protecting their large sellers (probstein content)

[nolemmings]

Todd, with all due respect (I like you and know you are very smart), I find your sentiments on this subject to be idiotic. Again, nothing personal.

I won’t take it personally Leon. I’m not saying I’m in favor of shilling–just that I’m not going to get all worked up over it as relates to me and my hobby. If that makes me an idiot, well then there you have it.

You say you understand the whole hidden reserve concept and yet there is apparently something wrong if I just factor that into my decision-making process. Why? If I am willing to pay $100 for a card that has reserve of $100, an opening bid of $100 or a BIN of $100 because that’s what I would be willing to pay to own that card, why should I get all butt-hurt if it gets shilled to $100? The seller could have offered it under any of those platforms and I would be happy to add it to my collection for that same price, yet because I “could have had it for less” when he fails to use those mechanisms and instead employs shilling I should feel cheated and/or like an idiot? If you say so but forgive me if I just go on enjoying my card. I guess shilling allowed him to skirt a $2 Ebay reserve price fee, but I hardly believe that’s what is bothering people here.

I’ve been away from this thread too long today to address all of the points raised, so let me just say to each his own. As for Probstein, I have won several cards from his ebay auctions over the years for well less than I was willing to pay (I know, you’ll just say how much cheaper it could have gone it weren’t for the shillers). So go ahead and boycott his auctions if that makes you feel better– I have no problem with that. But at what point does the sanctimony stop?

Suppose he’s auctioning a card that should go for $100 based on prior sales, and a half dozen of you here would love to have it at that price but refuse to bid on his auctions. I win it for $60 and post it on the b/s/t for $100. Is the card now “clean” to buy? This way you're not giving the satisfaction of having the shiller or his auctioneer getting a dime of your hard-earned money, but how about giving that money to someone who knowingly turned a blind eye to the shiller?. And if not me do you buy it from the guy I sell to if he knows of my skullduggery? Dammit, thus is such a pervasive, drag-down-the-hobby, illegal, low-life activity that shouldn't someone be monitoring who is selling what and figuring out just what they know and when they learned it?

[sbfinley]

So most people here would check the bidding history of 2,000 daily auctions 5 times a week for impropriety if you owned a major eBay consignment company? No, you wouldn't because you wouldn't have enough time in the day. So you'd pay two (you would need at least two) full time employees to do nothing but check bidding history when in reality many eBayers have multiple accounts, legitimate bidders retract occasionally (blame eBay for allowing it), and new or occasional buyers may have an exceptionally high bid history percentage with you? Now, you've burned $70k in overhead and salary to discover shillers so everyone uncomfortable with the idea of simply bidding what they value the item to be worth to them can now comfortably umm... bid what they value the item to worth to them. That would be an amazing stand to please those prospective customers who would have else boycotted your company on the basis of principle although then you also need to become the CEO of eBay to change the implemented practice of anonymous bidding which allows such shilling chicanery to flourish because those who boycott your company on principle must certainly also boycott eBay for the exact same reasons. Kudos.

[Runscott]

Steve, you know as well as the rest of us, that this is silly. Your first point has been addressed too many times to count. This is like saying police shouldn't fight crime because there will be some crime that goes undetected, or worse, that everyone is a criminal to some extent.

[sbfinley]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Steve, you know as well as the rest of us, that this is silly. Your first point has been addressed too many times to count. This is like saying police shouldn't fight crime because there will be some crime that goes undetected, or worse, that everyone is a criminal to some extent.

No, to me it's blaming one cop for a city wide problem. The original poster stated that all five cards were from the same modern set so the low feedback bidder could have been no different from him and trying to pick up multiple copies from the same seller. Had he (low feedback bidder) won the five and the OP been quiet on eBay for the past month it would look the exact same to him with no impropriety whatsoever. I'm not saying shilling doesn't occur in some of his auctions, I'm saying there is no feasible way for a seller of his volume to police it. That's not his fault, that would be directly on eBay.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

I won’t take it personally Leon. I’m not saying I’m in favor of shilling–just that I’m not going to get all worked up over it as relates to me and my hobby. If that makes me an idiot, well then there you have it.

You say you understand the whole hidden reserve concept and yet there is apparently something wrong if I just factor that into my decision-making process. Why? If I am willing to pay $100 for a card that has reserve of $100, an opening bid of $100 or a BIN of $100 because that’s what I would be willing to pay to own that card, why should I get all butt-hurt if it gets shilled to $100? The seller could have offered it under any of those platforms and I would be happy to add it to my collection for that same price, yet because I “could have had it for less” when he fails to use those mechanisms and instead employs shilling I should feel cheated and/or like an idiot? If you say so but forgive me if I just go on enjoying my card. I guess shilling allowed him to skirt a $2 Ebay reserve price fee, but I hardly believe that’s what is bothering people here.

I’ve been away from this thread too long today to address all of the points raised, so let me just say to each his own. As for Probstein, I have won several cards from his ebay auctions over the years for well less than I was willing to pay (I know, you’ll just say how much cheaper it could have gone it weren’t for the shillers). So go ahead and boycott his auctions if that makes you feel better– I have no problem with that. But at what point does the sanctimony stop?

Suppose he’s auctioning a card that should go for $100 based on prior sales, and a half dozen of you here would love to have it at that price but refuse to bid on his auctions. I win it for $60 and post it on the b/s/t for $100. Is the card now “clean” to buy? This way you're not giving the satisfaction of having the shiller or his auctioneer getting a dime of your hard-earned money, but how about giving that money to someone who knowingly turned a blind eye to the shiller?. And if not me do you buy it from the guy I sell to if he knows of my skullduggery? Dammit, thus is such a pervasive, drag-down-the-hobby, illegal, low-life activity that shouldn't someone be monitoring who is selling what and figuring out just what they know and when they learned it?

I specifically said I felt it was an idiotic sentiment. I think you are very intelligent and always enjoy our conversations. You are far from what I think an idiot is. And who knows, maybe my thoughts are idiotic?

[nolemmings]

Sorry Leon, I did not take it personally and am not offended. I just don't believe that even the sentiment, opinion, stance or whatever is idiotic, nor do I find yours to be so (or any expressed in this thread).

I did not mention that I believe sniping helps prevent shilling, and since I often snipe, I obviously prefer to avoid paying my max price. However, as stated by others here, I am far more worried about card alteration and fake slabs then shilling. If any or all of these can be shut down, great, but until then I'll just plod along as best I can.

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Sorry Leon, I did not take it personally and am not offended. I just don't believe that even the sentiment, opinion, stance or whatever is idiotic, nor do I find yours to be so (or any expressed in this thread).

I did not mention that I believe sniping helps prevent shilling, and since I often snipe, I obviously prefer to avoid paying my max price. However, as stated by others here, I am far more worried about card alteration and fake slabs then shilling. If any or all of these can be shut down, great, but until then I'll just plod along as best I can.

Todd, I agree with what you have expressed in this thread and do not think anything you have mentioned to be in any way 'idiotic'. You spoke of sniping and that's what a lot of collector's do on eBay, so some of the time you don't know if an auction is being shilled or not. I always snipe and when I set it, I forget it and move on. I've bought several cards from Probstein and not once have I paid more than I should have (market wise). I believe some of the consignors are dicks for shill bidding, but as we can see, nothing is getting done about it. And honestly, he sells a lot of cards that I'm interested in, so I'm gonna continue to bid as long as it falls within my range. I almost always bid to get steals, so if i'm shilled along the way to a steal price...well, that just doesn't make sense

All I'm saying is be careful casting stones...they hurt ya know???

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

Todd, I agree with what you have expressed in this thread and do not think anything you have mentioned to be in any way 'idiotic'. You spoke of sniping and that's what a lot of collector's do on eBay, so some of the time you don't know if an auction is being shilled or not. I always snipe and when I set it, I forget it and move on. I've bought several cards from Probstein and not once have I paid more than I should have (market wise). I believe some of the consignors are dicks for shill bidding, but as we can see, nothing is getting done about it. And honestly, he sells a lot of cards that I'm interested in, so I'm gonna continue to bid as long as it falls within my range. I almost always bid to get steals, so if i'm shilled along the way to a steal price...well, that just doesn't make sense

All I'm saying is be careful casting stones...they hurt ya know???

How can you so confidently say that "not once have I paid more than I should have (market wise)"?

Even if Mother Teresa was the consignor of every card you've ever bought at auction, it's highly likely that one of the following inflated the market:
1) She was shilled when she originally bought the card
2) Another example of the same card was shilled elsewhere

When I read some members saying that shilling doesn't hurt them, I think about those guys who talk about how they put one over on the car salesman. Ya didn't.

[1952boyntoncollector]

When I read some members saying that shilling doesn't hurt them, I think about those guys who talk about how they put one over on the car salesman. Ya didn't.[/QUOTE]

I don't think I ever heard from a friend say he didn't get a 'good deal' when buying a car...I always here 'I got a good deal'...

[autocentral]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

When I read some members saying that shilling doesn't hurt them, I think about those guys who talk about how they put one over on the car salesman. Ya didn't.

I don't think I ever heard from a friend say he didn't get a 'good deal' when buying a car...I always here 'I got a good deal'...[/QUOTE]

I think a card is worth what your willing to pay for it no matter what a BV or price guide may tell you. People say they got a good deal when they get a card they want for the price they wanted to pay. You may not agree with the price paid but at the end of the day I don't think shilling will come to an end. Therefore if I get a card for less than what I myself am willing to pay, "I got a good deal."

-Nick

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by 4815162342

How can you so confidently say that "not once have I paid more than I should have (market wise)"?

Even if Mother Teresa was the consignor of every card you've ever bought at auction, it's highly likely that one of the following inflated the market:
1) She was shilled when she originally bought the card
2) Another example of the same card was shilled elsewhere

When I read some members saying that shilling doesn't hurt them, I think about those guys who talk about how they put one over on the car salesman. Ya didn't.

Because I'm a confident person




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