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#51
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No youre right i dont know but looking at his world series stats if he did he sure did a horrible job..lol
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#52
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I thought Manfred's letter was perfectly worded. What do we know now that Landis did not know in 1921? Likely nothing. Therefore Manfred has to respect that decision. Only if new, substantive evidence emerges that changes the fact that Jackson admitted under oath to accepting money from a person he knew to be paying him and his teammates to throw the World Series should baseball even consider re-looking at the case in its entirety. Authoritative decisions like banning a player must be respected by future generations and future commissioners for the punishment to have merit and for the authority to be considered inviolable. You cannot rewrite history out of nostalgia. While it may have seemed harsh, the decision was final in Jackson's life and should remain so now unless new evidence emerges. |
#53
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#54
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You can do a lot of things and not get banned from Baseball. But gambling or taking money has always been THE BIG NO-NO.
Jim Devlin, George Hall, Al Nichols and Bill Craver of the Louisville Grays were banned in 1877. They were, late in the season, 27-13, but went 8-12 in the last games. All but Craver admitted throwing games. I've always felt these guys set the "unbreakable" rule in Baseball that has held up for all these years. Rose, Jackson, Weaver, NO. |
#55
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They both get my vote to be in. In my opinion their career numbers should determine their entry to the HOF.
The only ones i don't want in are the ones we know 100% used PED.
__________________
Ruben |
#56
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Totally agree
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#57
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OT: Shoeless Joe HOF decision?
NO!!
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#58
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In that era who would be dumb enough to rat on the mob???? Arnold Rothstein was in business with luciano, lansky, etc youd be looking at a death sentence if you snitched..period
Last edited by JoeyFarino; 09-01-2015 at 01:55 PM. Reason: More |
#59
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The point is you could have just said no and not taken $5,000 from Lefty Williams. You can't look at stats and say Joe Jackson definitively did not throw the World Series. He played the field. There's nothing about a box score that will tell you a guy didn't pull up on a fly ball they could have caught or tripped up rounding the bases and took a base away from themselves.
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#60
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#61
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I don't know if there's any truth to that claim that he asked Comiskey not to play. He made it later in life and not during his deposition.
If you want to go with the mob angle, which I don't really buy into because it takes a whole team or no team, he didn't have to accept the money. Accepting the money is what did him in. Last edited by packs; 09-01-2015 at 03:15 PM. |
#62
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__________________
Ed Collecting PCL, Southern Association, and type cards. http://hangingjudgesports.com |
#63
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Remember, Asinof's Eight Men Out took a lot of artistic license with the story and should be read with caution when seeking out historical fact.
__________________
Nationals attended: 4 (3with Otis) |
#64
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When MLB looked at Weaver's case again they found that he definitively participated in at least two meetings, one in New York City and one in Cincinnati. He discussed throwing the series with his teammates. He told no one and did nothing when they did throw the series.
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#65
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#66
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PS At this point Rose has paid the price. I would reinstate him, unless there is evidence he bet against his own team and I don't believe there is.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 09-01-2015 at 04:31 PM. |
#67
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So when is this desition happening? Or did it happen today already?
__________________
Successful transactions with: Drumback, Mart8081, Obcmac, Tonyo, markf31, gnaz01, rainier2004, EASE, Bobsbats, Craig M, TistaT202, Seiklis, Kenny Cole, T's please, Vic, marcdelpercio, poorlydrawncat, brianp-beme, mybuddyinc, Glchen, chernieto , old-baseball , Donscards, Centauri, AddieJoss, T2069bk,206fix, joe v, smokelessjoe, eggoman, botn, canjond Looking for T205's or anything Babe Ruth...email or PM me if you have any to sell. |
#68
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I don't think so, no. Because Buck Weaver attended multiple meetings and took no money, he simply sat back and watched his team throw the series. Joe Jackson on the other hand did take money. No one had to do anything.
Last edited by packs; 09-02-2015 at 07:17 AM. |
#69
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Selling loads of game used bats - Sketchy when he was using a new bat for what seemed like every pitch. Not illegal, but still a little questionable for the era. Selling multiple bats from the same milestone hit. - Hard to prove he did that, harder still to prove that's exactly what he claimed at the time. sort of dueling stories, and the buyers could have been interpreting his claims. Sort of "this bat is from the at bat where I got the hit" which gets taken as "this is the bat I got the hit with" In the buyers mind - instead of the more truthful "this is the bat I hit the foul with a couple pitches before" (Not sure of the exact at bats/hits , just a for instance) He did some other stuff too. I'd have to really dig for the old magazines that have the details. As for Jackson, I agree that taking the money and playing well but keeping quiet is wrong, and I'm confident in thinking that Landis viewed it as being just as bad. Plus, as others have pointed out, there's a lot of subtle stuff a great athlete could do that wouldn't be obvious from the stats. While it might be trackable now with the video all teams have of other teams in detail. At the time there was no way to track stuff like not getting a good jump on maybe one particular ball so it falls in, or not taking a base, or taking a strike in a certain situation. Steve B |
#70
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I don't care about Pete Rose's personal shortcomings or hobby activities. By sheer force of will he made himself into the all-time hit leader and a superstar. He was the consummate competitor, and obviously raised the level of play of his teammates. His work ethic was unmatched.
As Sports Illustrated put it, even in the stands, his will to win could be felt. As Rose himself put it, in one of the greatest of all baseball quotes, "I'd walk through hell in a gasoline suit to play baseball." Yeah he gambled, but he's paid for that with purgatory for decades. He is clearly a Hall of Famer.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 09-02-2015 at 10:07 AM. |
#71
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Nope. He refused to admit what he did until it was undeniable. At any time, if he did in fact never bet against his own team, he could have admitted as such. So after all those lies he told when faced with the truth, you really believe him and believe he has enough integrity to be telling the truth this one time?
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#72
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#73
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He's a compulsive gambler though. When are compulsive gamblers moral crusaders? If it meant winning the money he was chasing, why wouldn't he do it? Clearly he didn't respect the game enough to not bet on it.
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#74
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Has anyone claimed he did, or suggested specific games where his playing or managing was questionable? They may have I just was not aware of it.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#75
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Arguably more minor, but others would argue the opposite. |
#76
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Last edited by JoeyFarino; 09-02-2015 at 12:39 PM. Reason: More |
#77
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In 1920 Jackson batted .382. This is the year after the 1919 series. Landis announced his rule against throwing a game Aug. 3, 1921. This is almost two years after the 1919 series.
So here's my question. How can you be suspended for life for breaking a rule that hasn't been written yet? Wouldn't that be like getting a speeding ticket for driving 70 mph on a highway that was two years later changed to 55 mph? Now for the life time suspension. Wasn't Steve Howe given like 7 life time suspensions? If I remember it right, each "life time" suspension was for one year. Just sayin.... |
#78
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Joe took money to throw a World Series. Landis had to set a hard example to keep organized gambling out of the game and instill the public's trust that the games were not fixed going forward. Joe and the others were the example. Time does not change what he and the others did.
As for Pete, and I'm a big Reds fan and loved Pete the player, I cannot believe a word that comes out of that man's mouth. He has lied from the day he was investigated, only fessing up to whatever evidence is on the table that he cannot deny. He agreed to a lifetime ban and that is what he deserves. Now if the Hall of Fame wanted to induct either of these gentlemen, it could change their own rule and take out the part about being banned from baseball - remember being banned from baseball and not being eligible for the HoF are two independent issues.
__________________
Working Sets: Baseball- T206 SLers - Virginia League (-1) 1952 Topps - low numbers (-1) 1954 Bowman (-3) 1964 Topps Giants auto'd (-2) |
#79
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I don't presume to be an expert on this. I have read a lot of books, read the grand jury testimony that is available, have seen some interviews and still don't really have a good sense of what actually occurred. After 90 years, it is probably unrealistic to expect that I would.
What I do think is that it is crystal clear that Comiskey knew about it and did his best to cover it up. I think it is almost equally as clear that Ban Johnson knew and tried to cover it up. If we are going to vilify the players who were involved, and I get the indignation about "cheating the game" and whatnot, it seems to me that the higher-ups who knew about it, and in Comiskey's case, was the basic reason why it occurred, deserve an equal fate. Comiskey is in the HOF. So is Johnson. Fair is fair. Kick them out or give up the pretend outrage. BTW, did anyone note that, according to some interviews, the genesis of the 1919 conspiracy was that the 1918 world series had been thrown? I find that very interesting. Last edited by Kenny Cole; 09-02-2015 at 09:38 PM. |
#80
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#81
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[QUOTE=Joshwesley;1448233]That's a shame... obviously by judging his performance in the series... Joe didn't throw anything, but taking the money makes him guilty.
That isn't necessarily so. The Sox weren't trying to throw every game and in the three they won (and in which Jackson was presumably doing his best) he batted .545. In the five losses he batted only .286 and most have that production (HR, 2B, 3 RBI) came in the final game when they were already getting blown out. That isn't proof of any wrongdoing but neither is his overall BA of .375 proof of innocence.
__________________
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#82
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#83
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A question then for those saying it's all about what someone did on the field and that off the field stuff should have nothing to do with it
Are you then against the current practice in pretty much all sports of suspending players for stuff they do that's off field and unrelated to their sport? Adrian Peterson? Michael Vick? Delmon Young? And should the PED users be sanctioned? Many of them did stuff before MLB had any specific rule or testing program. Steve B |
#84
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Same with pete rose. Who the hell cares if he bet on games. How does that affect anything he did on the field. He played his ass off without PED's and has some insane numbers. How can anyone justify not letting him in. I understand theres a rule but unless he had his team throw any games to benefit him then he deserves to be in. The fact that he bet on games is a seperate issue. Firing him takes care of that. Maybe a fine too but keeping him out of something he clearly belongs in is excessive Last edited by JoeyFarino; 09-03-2015 at 08:35 AM. Reason: More |
#85
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Last edited by pariah1107; 09-03-2015 at 12:36 PM. |
#86
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I also disagree that the fact that Rose bet on games is a separate issue. He was betting on games while being on the field. That is one and the same. Ban him for life.
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#87
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Mays and Aaron used greenies.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#88
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What confuses me in all of this "knowing but not telling equals lifetime banishment" is the case of Rube Benton. He testified to knowing the series was fixed but didn't talk until the hearing. Basically he was thanked by Landis and kept right on playing until retirement.
Btw, there is a young man in my town I know who is a direct decendant of Benton. Kind of a weird family legacy, related to the one guy not banned who admidted for knowing. Drew
__________________
Drew |
#89
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Sort of like taking greenies in the '60s and '70s, right?
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#90
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Ok let me ask you this....did pete rose betting on games have anything to do with what he personally accomplished on the field?
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#91
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He was betting on games while on the field. The actions are one in the same.
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#92
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That didnt answer my question. Did his betting on baseball have anything to do with his stats, records or personal achievements on the field?
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#93
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How are the actions one in the same??? He achieved everything on the field without any help. I didnt know betting makes you hit and run better. Unless youre running away from a angry bookie who wants his money. The betting has NOTHING to do with his playing ability at all. Thats why he deserves to be in. The betting issue should be dealt with by suspension of games or a fine. But to strip someone of a title that they clearly earned is excessive
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#94
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The HOF is not exclusively about statistics. There is a morality clause and, now, there is the Pete Rose rule -- that if you are permanently banned, you are permanently ineligible for the HOF. Fair or not, that's the current rule.
I feel much more strongly about betting on baseball than I do PEDs. That is particularly true for Rose, who read the rule against doing that -- one of, if not the only rule taped on the door of every clubhouse -- every time he went out to play. He also had the example of what happened to Jackson. He knew what he was doing would get him banned and he did it anyway. Screw him. He has no excuses and he is a dick to boot. At least the Joe Jackson and Buck Weaver supporters have some arguments they can make. Rose has none. He was one of the most competitive players I ever saw, but he needs to buy a ticket to Cooperstown. I hope he is never elected. Last edited by Kenny Cole; 09-03-2015 at 08:14 PM. |
#95
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He's done his time. 25 years or however long it's been.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#96
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We will just have to agree to disagree about that.
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#97
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Regards, Larry |
#98
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Yes. I'm very glad someone else has noticed this. I find it hard to watch MLB Network because of the constant mentions to Fanduel and daily fantasy lineups.
__________________
http://www.flickr.com/photos/themessage94/ Always up for a trade. If you have a Blue Weiser Wonder WaJo, PM/Email Me! |
#99
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Jackson Ban
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Bottom line: Jackson was a guilty as "Original Sin"! He has no business being in Cooperstown and neither does Pete Rose. JoeT. Last edited by Vintageclout; 09-07-2015 at 03:51 PM. |
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