Topps Venezuelans

[craigpw]

Haven't noticed a thread recently on the Topps Venezuelan cards, so I thought I'd start one. I'm interested in learning information other members may have about the various issues. One bit of info I can offer is that, from my experience, 1959's and 1960's are much rarer than the other years. A distant third in terms of rarity is the 1968 issue followed by 1962. Finally, the 1964 and 1966 are the easiest. This, of course, leaves out the 1967 issue which is a different animal, which I won't address. Again, please post interesting bits of information, especially you Josh. Look forward to hearing from everyone.

Thanks,
Craig

[quitcrab]

I have always been confused about the 1972 Venz Stamps Are they a topps issue ? How can you tell the real from the fake ? What is the correct font for the names on the front of the card? Thick/heavy/ bold or less heavy thinner type ?

[1963Topps Set]

I really like the 1959s and I have some. The 1968 and 1964 are also really nice. I also like the 1962s, the 1966 and 1967 I stay away from.

[ALR-bishop]

The person with the most expertise I know, Josh A, posts occasionally on this board. I think he has all of the sets, or close to it. I will ask him to drop in

http://net54baseball.com/showthread....pps+venezuelan

[a761506]

I do have them all from 1959-1968 and can say definitively that the 1967 MLB portion of that set (150 total cards) is the most difficult to assemble. 1959 had been very tough until recently when Larry Sarver discovered a contact in Caracas who consigns lower grade cards to him on the regular. He has had quite a few of the high numbers available over the past couple years.

1968 has a couple cards that are extremely rare for unknown reasons. The 3rd checklist in the 1962 set seems to be the toughest of that set. No true card scarcities exist in 1960, 1964 & 1966.

If the goal was just to build a set in any condition, then you are absolutely correct, your best bet would be 1964 & 1966. While they may seem like less of a challenge compared to the rest, those are both monster sets of 370, and if you wanted only cards without evidence of glue or other common major flaws (writing, rat-gnawed corners, tape), I suspect it would be a bear to build either set from scratch right now with better than an average grade of VG.

Personally, I think the overall "easiest" of the sets to build in decent condition is 1960. The cards don't have glue problems. The stars are limited, the Mantle/Boyer & Yaz are super tough because of the competition for rare star items, but even they can be found occasionally. Hardly anyone is working on one, so there is almost no competition or market for commons.

My favorite set of all of them is the 1967 full set. I think it is absolutely spectacular. The Venezuelan league cards are mostly gorgeous, some have amazing backdrops. The Retirado cards are as unique of a creation the hobby has ever seen. And the MLB portion is shrouded with mystique and unbelievable scarcity for a post-war issue.

[hcv123]

I defer to Josh as he is MUCH more knowledgeable than I. I will chime in with my experience:

I have collected Venezuelan cards for about 20 years now. I have predominantly been after the HOFers and big stars. A special focus on Clemente As far as Clemente goes - the 1967 card is far and away the most scarce. PSA has graded only 6 copies - 2-5's, a 3 and 3 1's. I have seen half of them. I have had my eye out for it for the better part of the last 20 years and only seen the 3 referenced above. After that I would say the 1968 is the next most difficult, followed by the 1968 #3 leaders card and 1968 Pirates team card, then 1968 #1 leaders card. Finding a 1962 would be next - at least 1 or 2 show up a year - nice condition - whole other ball game. lastly the 1962 leaders card and the 1966 ( relatively (for a Venezuelan) "common" ) and findable in mid grade.
I am grateful to own many of the cards I have sought. Some still on my want list:

1959 Mantle, Koufax
1964 Mantle
1967 Aaron
1968 Ryan, Rose, Seaver, Carew, Yaz, #3 leader card

I have a couple of extra Mays card to consider trading for any of the above

[Orioles1954]

I don't collect Venezuelans unless there is Spanish text on the reverse or a different back. Typically, I also only collect clean backs. That makes the 1967 and 1964 sets my favorites. To date, has any packaging surfaced (wrappers, display boxes, etc.)? I collect Orioles team set sets and while it took a year of so to put together the 1964 and 1967 sets, the 1968 issue has been pretty much impossible. I'm probably very much in the minority, but the Retired cards from the 1967 don't do much for me. Guess I just don't like post-career cards. It is the first of its kind, though.

[ALR-bishop]

In 1994 Topps produced a limited edition set that paralleled their basic set but had backs in both English and Spanish

[1963Topps Set]

Orioles1954 I agree competely with everything you said, however, I do love the 1959 with Spanish copyright text. I collect them if I can get them. 1962, 1964 and 1968 are my favorites. I feel the 1967 retired set is grossly overrated. You can't even touch the Koufax card. Well put my friend.

[bnorth]

This is my only Venezuelan card. Bought it from a fellow member when he upgraded to a nicer one.

[begsu1013]

I have the 68 ryan and the 77 rose...definitely condition sensitive considering the paper and the fact that kids would glue them to albums....just something they did in their culture. we had 9 pocket binders, they had glue.

[Orioles1954]

I'm under the impression that Venezuelans weren't distributed in traditional wax packs with gum. Rather, they were issued with albums and glue. Not sure it is necessarily cultural, but simply how they were distributed.

[begsu1013]

pretty sure, but not 100%, that they didn't come glued in the albums. they didn't come in "wax" packs either, rather a crude type of "envelope". again, in no way an expert.

but I think the jist of it was to buy the "packs" and then buy the album and glue them to the album yourself to complete the set.

again, confident, but not 100%...

edited to add:

I would like to know more about the 72 stamps though. the 72 ryan stamp has eluded me for years...where as the 68 rook did take a while, but haven't even seen the 72 in person or heard of someone actually owning one...seen a pic and reminds me of 59 topps a lil...

I've been working on the 1967 Major League set for going on three years now and I can attest to it's difficulty. Some cards are just impossible. I missed out on one of the tough ones on eBay some months back and I seriously wonder if I'll ever see another example. I have managed to put together 35 of 150 so far. Great set, but tough.

[Exhibitman]

As far as the culture goes the tradition of mfg albums to paste cards into goes back to the prewar issues of all sports and nonsports. I collect boxing and soccer cards too and the Latin American cards from candy issuers and many tobacco companies are made with albums. We simply don't do that here. The few albums I can think of like Leaf were made with slots to tip in the cards. The only glue in albums I can think of were a few topps special issues like the bazooka stickers or the FB 4 on 1 from 1969.

[Bestdj777]

From my experiences, the toughest by far is the 1959 Creme backs followed by the 1959 Gray backs, 1968, and the 1960. After that, I have found them relatively easy and available. Here are a few of my favorites (the 59 is a gray back):



Not a bad scan... It actually looks like that.


The Venezuelan is on the right. The other is a poorly trimmed U.S. issue I have to upgrade at some point...

[whiteymet]

Hi Gents:

Was Ashburn issued in any of the sets from Venezuela? If so what years?

Any available?

Please advise.

Thanks,

Fred

[a761506]

No Ashburn's.

As far as issue, they definitely came in wax packs with gum. I know people who lived in Caracas and remember opening packs of them.

No full wrapper or unopened pack has ever surfaced, but finding remnants of the pack on the cards is not overly uncommon.

Albums were only issued for '64, '66 & '67.

[Orioles1954]

A lot of questions emerge about distribution:

1.) I've handled many Topps Venezuelan cards over the past ten years and have never come across wax staining.

2.) Unless they borrowed U.S. packaging, it seems very unlikely that at least a wrapper or panel of a display box has not survived. That makes me think the traditional 24 pack wax box may have not been employed here. Perhaps cello packs?

3.) Why were albums released for some sets and not others?

4.) Were packs limited only to Venezuelan major cities?

5.) Could finding "remnants of the pack" be confused with scrapbook residue?

[craigpw]

This has never been mentioned in a Topps/Venezuelan post, but it seems obvious to me that the 1967 issue was pirated without any participation or approval from Topps. These cards were clearly made other cards and not plates produced by Topps. The images are not nearly as sharp and often borders of other cards are slightly misaligned when they are positioned side by side with any specific card. What do you think? ...Craig

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by craigpw

This has never been mentioned in a Topps/Venezuelan post, but it seems obvious to me that the 1967 issue was pirated without any participation or approval from Topps. These cards were clearly made other cards and not plates produced by Topps. The images are not nearly as sharp and often borders of other cards are slightly misaligned when they are positioned side by side with any specific card. What do you think? ...Craig

Interesting.....starting in 1960, the Venezuelan set was issued every two years with the exception of 1967. It is also the only Venezuelan sets where the backs aren't replicated.

[a761506]

The '67 set was made by Sport Grafico. I do believe Topps had a hand in those, although we'll never really know.

[Orioles1954]

I guess we can surmise that the Retirado is NOT the first Topps issue retro themed set. Is there any documentation, anywhere that links Topps as endorsing the Venezuelan set? How can we be sure all of these sets were not knock offs from Sport Grafico?

[TheNightmanCometh]

Bringing this thread back from the dead because I couldn't find another thread dedicated to all Venezuelan issues.

New to the board and a big time collector of Topps Braves team sets. It is my mission to collect every base card Topps ever made of every Mil./Atl. Braves, from '51 up to today. So far everything's great and I have 68 through today completed, plus a lot of years more than half way done.

While collecting I stumbled upon the existence of VZ cards and have been fascinated ever since. Not only that, but I expanded my search to include both VZ and OPC cards, as they were made by Topps.

So, now I'm on the hunt for Braves VZ cards in the $5 to $10 range. I've had great success on ebay, was able to purchase the entire Braves 1960 VZ set for only $35!, and recently on the Yahoo board, which I found through posting over at Beckett. Found some really great deals for some really great players, Mathews and Torre being a couple of them.

Anyways, wanted to say hello to all of you fellow VZ collectors. :-)

[DBesse27]

I too have recently caught the Venie bug and have added 25 of them to my personal collection in the past 4 months. Speaking of team set projects, I am slowly tackling the 1968 Venie Red Sox set.

[TheNightmanCometh]

If they're anywhere near as hard as the Braves team set then I wish you good luck.

Gotta ask, who collects whatever quality they can get their hands on and who collects high grades? I'm more of a collect whatever I can type because finding high grades are hard and they're also very expensive.

I only have one expectation and that's that the front of the card doesn't have any paper loss. It can have creases, round corners, discoloration, and paper loss on the back; doesn't matter. Just gotta see the front of the card.

[DBesse27]

Well my #1 collecting focus is the Yaz master set and, since he won the triple crown in 67, he has 7 Venezuelan cards in 1968. I have 2 of those, plus 4 other Red Sox so far

[hcv123]

You can keep your PSA 9 and 10 1968 Topps (of which there are 57,791 graded - 6,661 - 10's +51,130 unqualified 9's). Lets fight for the one and only highest graded PSA 9 1968 Venezuelan - yep, 1 card (Bob Gibson if you are curious) - no 10's. Only 8 graded 8's and ONLY a total of 772 (163 of which are 1.5 or lower) cards graded for the whole set (as compared to a little over 241,000 for the regular Topps issue). The above will begin to illustrate how ridiculously difficult the Venezuelan cards are. While there has been a bit more interest in them over the past couple of years, imho the prices these cards can still be had for do not come close to factoring just how hard they are. I loved them from the day I learned about them and they have been a pursuit ever since. Regarding condition - the Venezuelans (with some exception in the 1966 set) are frequently found with many condition problems. I have a handful of PSA 5's that are part of the pride of my collection. Thanks for reviving the thread and giving me an opportunity to rant a bit....

Happy collecting!

[TheNightmanCometh]

It was m pleasure because I love VZ cards. If I weren't so determined to collect all the Braves base cards I'd be collecting VZ cards in a second. I really do find them grossly under priced in certain ways, but do you think the demand will continue to increase enough for any of us to go out and snipe cheapies with the idea of selling later when the market increases? Or should we all just stick to collecting our special projects and let them float on? Been curious about that.

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by TheNightmanCometh

It was m pleasure because I love VZ cards. If I weren't so determined to collect all the Braves base cards I'd be collecting VZ cards in a second. I really do find them grossly under priced in certain ways, but do you think the demand will continue to increase enough for any of us to go out and snipe cheapies with the idea of selling later when the market increases? Or should we all just stick to collecting our special projects and let them float on? Been curious about that.

Like many echoed sentiments here on the board - first and foremost I collect what I like. I have always loved the thrill of the hunt - Venezuelan cards have made for much more challenging "prey". I expect I will make a profit when the cards I own are sold. Regarding marketplace value - it would be taking a guess about the supply and demand equation - I feel relatively confident speculating that the supply side will not appreciably increase. Are there some left to discover - likely some, but not many - even if the population doubled - these are some rare cards. The demand side is the big question mark - will more people start looking for these rare Topps South American counterparts? I am surprised that the "completest" types have chosen not to define these as part of a complete Topps run - understandably from the perspective that it is unlikely any more than possibly 1 of them might complete a run. I only know of 2 collectors who have said they have a complete or near complete run of Venezuelan cards from 1959-1968 - they have been collecting Venezuelans for decades! Do more people learn about, get interested in and start pursuing these cards? That's the million dollar question! It wouldn't take many to start driving prices to the sky. The cards so far have been most popular with Team and player collectors. We'll see what the future holds.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by hcv123

Like many echoed sentiments here on the board - first and foremost I collect what I like. I have always loved the thrill of the hunt - Venezuelan cards have made for much more challenging "prey". I expect I will make a profit when the cards I own are sold. Regarding marketplace value - it would be taking a guess about the supply and demand equation - I feel relatively confident speculating that the supply side will not appreciably increase. Are there some left to discover - likely some, but not many - even if the population doubled - these are some rare cards. The demand side is the big question mark - will more people start looking for these rare Topps South American counterparts? I am surprised that the "completest" types have chosen not to define these as part of a complete Topps run - understandably from the perspective that it is unlikely any more than possibly 1 of them might complete a run. I only know of 2 collectors who have said they have a complete or near complete run of Venezuelan cards from 1959-1968 - they have been collecting Venezuelans for decades! Do more people learn about, get interested in and start pursuing these cards? That's the million dollar question! It wouldn't take many to start driving prices to the sky. The cards so far have been most popular with Team and player collectors. We'll see what the future holds.

I trying to get PSA to do a HOF registry for each of the Topps years.....

[JustinD]

Old post, but man if you ever want to get rid of this let me know!

[TheNightmanCometh]

Got some new VZs in yesterday! They aren't grade worthy, but I needed them for my collection so I'm stoked.

[DBesse27]

Great cards Ryan! I had a copy of that 68 Sonny for sale not too long ago, before you resurrected this thread.

I've already shown these in the Yaz thread, but wanted to show you my only 2 graded Venezuelans. I have 22 more that I'll be mailing to PSA this week or next.

[Bestdj777]

Originally Posted by JustinD

Old post, but man if you ever want to get rid of this let me know!

Haha, despite the fact that it makes me nauseous looking at it, it is probably going to stay in my collection for a while. If I do ever sell, I'll let you know though. There are something like four images of Mantle, so maybe a 4 times premium over a regular Venezuelan

[Section103]

Originally Posted by quitcrab

I have always been confused about the 1972 Venz Stamps Are they a topps issue ? How can you tell the real from the fake ? What is the correct font for the names on the front of the card? Thick/heavy/ bold or less heavy thinner type ?

Quitcrab - don't know if anyone replied to you specifically, but see the thread linked below.


http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=199484

[TheNightmanCometh]

Originally Posted by DBesse27

Great cards Ryan! I had a copy of that 68 Sonny for sale not too long ago, before you resurrected this thread.

I've already shown these in the Yaz thread, but wanted to show you my only 2 graded Venezuelans. I have 22 more that I'll be mailing to PSA this week or next.

Dang! Those look awesome! Thanks for sharing. In my quest to collect every Topps Braves base card, I found myself collecting VZ as well. So far, I am 61 of the 90 cards possible, so I'm pretty stoked. I'm always looking out for new ones in my price range. Are you grading to sell later?

[DBesse27]

No, I'm grading to keep. I'll have 3 for my Yaz master set (with hopefully many more to come), I'm gonna start a 1968 Venezuelan registry (soon will have 19 in slabs) and a '64 Venezuelan registry (soon will have 4 in slabs).

[TheNightmanCometh]

That's awesome! Do you have your set listed somewhere where I can see them?

Also, just a question for you VZ collector's out there. Some of the cards I got appear to be very dry, is that normal? I always figured VZ as a tropical climate.

[TheNightmanCometh]

Also, best looking 1967 VZ I've seen yet, oh and it happens to be a Mantle...bidding's already exploded.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1967-Topps-V...gAAOSwFqJWrmmB

[sago]

.

[DBesse27]

Originally Posted by TheNightmanCometh

That's awesome! Do you have your set listed somewhere where I can see them?

Not yet. I'm mailing the 22 to PSA and when they're back I will start the registries I talked about. In the meantime, I'll PM you a link so you can see the rest of them.

[TheNightmanCometh]

Thanks :-)

[TheNightmanCometh]

Picked these up over the last month or so. I've made a lot of headway, having the '64, '66, and '68 sets virtually completed. What I'm looking for now are '59s, '62s, and Aaron VZs.

[TheNightmanCometh]

How could I forget this Niekro?

[Rrrlyons]

Posting some pictures for albums in the 68 set and the 70 set it was posted early that they were only in the 64-66-67 sets. The 68 cards were glued together so I soaked them got them apart ok and didn't ruin the piece of page between them. I left it on the back of the other card. Looks like there was nine cards to a page with a little bio underneath. Other pictures are the back of a 70 card and a page from a 70 album. As well they have albums for the 70's sticker sets also. Which brings me to part two of the side notes is the 67 set a topps issue or not? The back of the 70 winter league set is the same as the 67 set. Why is the 70 set not listed in the SCD under the venezulan topps sets? Does that mean SCD didn't know about the set or doesn't think it's a topps? I don't know just throwing a little more info out there. Rick

[Rrrlyons]

Picture

[Rrrlyons]

Don't know how to put all the pictures in one post

[Rrrlyons]

Sorry some times it's a benefit to being simple but not in this case.

[TheNightmanCometh]

Picked up a '64 Aaron and '66 Braves Team card, pics coming soon, both of which complete each respective run of Braves base cards in those sets. I'm still on the hunt for more Braves VZ cards, so if you have the following and are willing to sell, IM me.

1959 Topps Venezuelan
3 Don McMahon -- Milwaukee Braves
27 Andy Pafko -- Milwaukee Braves
40 Warren Spahn -- Milwaukee Braves
54 Mel Roach -- Milwaukee Braves
104 Del Rice -- Milwaukee Braves
126 Eddie Haas -- Milwaukee Braves
128 Bob Hartman -- Milwaukee Braves
157 Felix Mantilla -- Milwaukee Braves
165 Bill Bruton -- Milwaukee Braves
188 Juan Pizarro -- Milwaukee Braves

1962 Topps Venezuelan
30 Eddie Mathews – Milwaukee Braves
63 Tony Cloninger -- Milwaukee Braves
100 Warren Spahn -- Milwaukee Braves
158 Braves Team -- Milwaukee Braves

1967 Topps Venezuelan
277 Mack Jones -- Atlanta Braves
281 Felipe Alou-- Atlanta Braves
284 Hank Aaron -- Atlanta Braves
324 Joe Torre -- Atlanta Braves

1968 Topps Venezuelan
110 Hank Aaron -- Atlanta Braves
221 Braves Team -- Atlanta Braves