Ode to Pre-War Football Cardboard

[S_GERACE]

Hi Mark,
I don't own any of them personally yet but sometime back I was looking into purchasing some football art for my office. I looked at the Bob Peaks Sports Illustrated signed lithos from the '70's (Grange (I owned once & regrettably sold) & Unitas) and came across a website detailing the Harper's woodcuts done by an artist named Remington. I can't find the article now but did find this website (pretty neat). From what I remember, the Harper's prints were valued anywhere from a couple of hundred to a couple of thousand dollars, depending on the size and subject matter. If I find the article again, I'll post it.

Again, congratulations!

http://www.lostcentury.com/#jp-carousel-1357

[cfhofer]

Very cool. I love the 19th century football artwork published in Leslie and Harper's Weekly. The book 'Lost Century of American Football', featured on the website you posted, is fantastic.

Here is a Pach Bros cabinet photo of the championship 1887 Yale football team. This one is just of the starting eleven, to include Hofers Pa Corbin and George Woodruff.

Thanks for letting me share.

Mark

[revmoran]

Here is some ids on that picture



I believe this is 1886

[cfhofer]

Thanks Mike. I believe your photo is 1887 too, since Beecher was the captain that year. Interesting to note that Stagg was not a starter for that team.

[jefferyepayne]

GREAT Yale photos, guys! Here's their team from 1882. Have never seen a caption for this photo so haven't been able to identify them all. Anyone have one?



jeff

[revmoran]

Jeff, you probably have the Cohane book on Yale football - which has 1881 and 1883 - if not I'll post those photos and maybe you can pick out your players from 1882

[spec]

Originally Posted by revmoran

Jeff, you probably have the Cohane book on Yale football - which has 1881 and 1883 - if not I'll post those photos and maybe you can pick out your players from 1882

Could you post a copy of the 1881 team photo with IDs? I have a Pach Bros. photo with the central player holding a ball inscribed Champions of 1881 I'd like to know more about. Thanks.
B.ob Ri.char.dson

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by revmoran

Jeff, you probably have the Cohane book on Yale football

I don't but sounds like one I need to pick up. Thanks Mike.

jeff

[revmoran]

Two pages from Cohane book The Yale Football Story

[jefferyepayne]

Can't see the pages you posted, Mike. They aren't showing up for me.

jeff

[revmoran]

This is weird, nothing I posted yesterday is showing up for others, but I see the pictures just fine - here are links to the images

https://storage.googleapis.com/mjmsports/Cohane%201.jpg

https://storage.googleapis.com/mjmsports/Cohane%202.jpg

[spec]

Revmoran,
Thanks for sharing those images. My cabinet photo is nearly the same as the 1881 team photo but with several of the players in different spots. For instance, Camp and Beck have switched positions, as have Tompkins and Storrs. Anyway, I now know who the players are after more than 20 years of being in the dark.

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by jefferyepayne

GREAT Yale photos, guys! Here's their team from 1882. Have never seen a caption for this photo so haven't been able to identify them all. Anyone have one?



jeff

Took a shot at identifying the players in this photo based upon Mike's images he posted. Here is my first cut. Corrections / additional / comments appreciated.

Back Row: ????, Benjamin Bacon, Louis Hull, Knapp, Ray Thompkins, ???, WH Peters, ????
Front Row: Badger, ????, Richards, Henry Twombly, ????

People in the 1881 or 1883 photos that potentially could be in this picture but I can't place them:
Farwell, Storrs, Beck, Lamb, Bertron, McCrary, Terry, Robinson, Hyndman, Cowles

jeff

[obiwin]

The only one I might question is your guess on Hull.

(My understanding is you believe Hull to be in the dark shirt with his right arm around Bacon.)

Hull's face seems rounder to me in the 1881 and 1883 photos than your 1882 photo. Outside of that, it does sort of look like him though.

[orly57]

Here are mine:

[orly57]

Beecher

[orly57]

Beecher

[orly57]

Bronko

[cfhofer]

Great group of cards. Thanks for sharing.

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by obiwin

The only one I might question is your guess on Hull.

(My understanding is you believe Hull to be in the dark shirt with his right arm around Bacon.)

Hull's face seems rounder to me in the 1881 and 1883 photos than your 1882 photo. Outside of that, it does sort of look like him though.

Thanks for the feedback. Yeah, I see what you mean. I'm not very good at matching faces on pictures so can't really tell.

jeff

[TanksAndSpartans]

Nice cards! I'd like to see the Hinkey and Nagurski next to each other. Made me think of a type collection where the one card of each type was the "best player" in the set - completely subjective and you'd probably want a rule like no duplicating players, but it would be interesting to see what people came up with.

[jefferyepayne]

Imperial sized cabinet photos of the 1929 and 1930 World Champion Green Bay Packers. These two team photos are stacked with HOFers and All-Pros ... Lambeau, Blood, Dilweg, Michalske, Hubbard, Lewellen, Herber. Lambeau even played in a game in 1929 so he's listed as a player/coach!





jeff

[cfhofer]

Picked up a nice group of 1886 Yale football cabinet photos. I've never seen the second photo before.

[buchner]

see you got the seller to end early. I was concerned with the top photo because Geo. Watkinson's head from Yale's 1885 team photo is superimposed over Hefflefinger's head (highest one in back row, head much larger than the others). Is it cut into the photo or copied that way? The second photo might be 1885 but its missing many of the top players except Gill and it looks like captain Peters? Anyway, nice photos.

[cfhofer]

Good call..the second photo is from 1885. Stagg is to the left of Peters (captain) and Woodruff is to the right of Gill.

Yes, George Watkinson died from fatigue/malaria immediately after playing the 1886 Yale-Princeton game. Since he was a starter and key player it looks like Pach Bros took his 1885 photo, reversed it and glued it over another player. It was professionally done and was likely a tribute to Watkinson.

[buchner]

Thanks for the information. Wonder why they didn't use a sub instead of Heffelfinger ? Also on the 1885 photo looks like Corwin setting on the end of the fence on the right. Looks like the photo could have been taken after practice.

[cfhofer]

They did use a sub. I think it was William P Graves. Pudge Heffelfinger was not on the 1886 team. He played for Yale from 1888-91.

Here is a cropped pic of an unaltered photo.

[jefferyepayne]

Great snag, Mark! Were these on ebay? Didn't see them. What was the title?

Which player is Camp in the second photo? You said left of the captain. His left or our left? Standing or sitting? I don't see him.

jeff

[cfhofer]

Thanks Jeff. Camp isn't in either photo. Stagg is to the left of the captain (looking to the right) in the second photo.

It was listed for less than 24 hours. There was an error in the listing so she ended it :-)

[buchner]

I seen this photo ID'ed as Heffelfinger, but never thought it really looked like him. Should have known better by comparing the year, would never have guessed Graves. Thanks again for the education, John

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by cfhofer

Thanks Jeff. Camp isn't in either photo. Stagg is to the left of the captain (looking to the right) in the second photo.

It was listed for less than 24 hours. There was an error in the listing so she ended it :-)

Sorry. Stagg, Stagg, Stagg! Typing too fast.

Thanks.

jeff

[cfhofer]

Picked up a really nice 1889 Pach Bros Yale yearbook. My favorite Yale football team was the 1888 squad with five College Hofers and Walter Camp's first year coaching (although many argue that Mrs. Camp did most of the work). Here are a few senior pics from the yearbook.

George Woodruff


Charles Gill


Pa Corbin


1888 Yale team.

[jefferyepayne]

Fantastic pickup, Mark! Those are really nice. Can you post a picture of the album?

jeff

[cfhofer]

Thanks Jeff. My wife didn't take a photo of the cover but it was a BIN on Ebay. I got a couple requests for the other team photos.

1888 Yale Crew


1889 Yale Baseball

[revmoran]

Glad you got that Mark - really great photos - sent me right to eBay and saw another, older Yale book by Pach, but no sports photos - I wonder if they customized which photos went in the book for the buyer.

[cfhofer]

I think they were Mike. There was a wonderful 1889 Yale SSS yearbook that was auctioned in Feb 2013 (see link below). It contains completely different sports photos despite being from the same year. I wonder how much Pach Bros charged back then?

http://www.invaluable.com/auction-lo...0-c-5bc2f13e67

Mark

[revmoran]

They were a great studio - I bet somewhere out there is a catalog or price list. I especially like this Pach Bros. albumin print I bought of Jarvis Field

[revmoran]

I found this in another thread http://www.net54baseball.com/archive...?t-164861.html

Before I get into the album on eBay let me say these are NOT like books and magazines that get "chop shopped". Each individual would order a "standard" book from pach bros but could also customize the books as well. these were made as unique items for specific students with their names engraved on the front. Each page is an albumen cabinet photo (real albumen cabinet photos by the way) with two images glued to a blank cabinet. There are then 2 blank backed cabinet cards that are lightly glued together and tipped into the book with linen. These cabinet photos can easily be separated back to how they were originally produced by the photographer to two blank backed images which can be cut in half to leave two cabinet photos. What is left are two completely original album photos, on their original mounts with the original glue.

I did find this ad in the 1889 Yale Banner, but it doesn't tell us much

[cfhofer]

Mike,

The yearbook referred to in that thread is a cheaper version. It seems Pach Bros created those in the late 1890s where lower quality photos were glued onto cardboard pages. Some dealers cut these pages up and sell them off as original photos.

These earlier Pach Bros yearbooks are much nicer. They contain individual cabinet photos which are slid into sleeves for easy removal. The photo quality is top notch. The smaller photos have the Pach Bros stamp along the bottom.

[revmoran]

I'm surprised I can't find a website dedicated to the history of Pach Bros. - small collections in the Library of Congress and the Smithsonian, and a nice history here http://dlib.nyu.edu/findingaids/html.../bioghist.html which says:

A dramatic fire on February 16, 1895 completely burned out the Pach studios that were located on the top floor of the buildings at 935 and 937 Broadway. An account in the New York Timess (February 17, 1895, p. 17) stated that there were thirty employees at work in the studio, and twenty patrons sitting for their portraits, when the fire started in the negative retouching room. No lives were lost, though all negatives created in the New York and the college satellite studios from the time of the firm's founding were destroyed.

[jefferyepayne]

Haven't posted anything to this thread for a while. Thought I'd share this fantastic RPPC of the 1906 Massillon Tigers, 1906 Ohio League Champions after defeating the Canton Bulldogs two games to one in a season ending series. For those not familiar with the story, there were accusations that the second game in this series was fixed to assure there would be a lucrative third game between the teams.



A few key players in this photo include:

- Ted Nesser of the famous Nesser football family
- Peggy Parrott who is believed to have completed the first successful pass in professional football during the 1906 season
- Tiny Maxwell who the Maxwell award is named after

jeff

[revmoran]

Was that before the Super Bowl?

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by revmoran

Was that before the Super Bowl?

You mean the beginning of football history?

I used to hate the incessant "Player XXX is the first player in playoff history to do [enter obscure, silly accomplishment here]".

Now they have expanded this to be:

First player in modern football history to ...

First player in Super Bowl era to ...

First player since 19XX to ...

First player since NFL/AFL merger to ...

Half the time I don't believe it when they say its the first time something has ever happened as they seem to arbitrarily ignore or discount the early years of the NFL.

jeff

[Il Padrino]

Jeff - I am really enjoying yet another one of your threads. Just tons of information.

That Massillon Tigers RPPC is amazing!!!! (as are all the other items)

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by Il Padrino

Jeff - I am really enjoying yet another one of your threads. Just tons of information.

That Massillon Tigers RPPC is amazing!!!! (as are all the other items)

Thanks Dan! The Massillon RPPC is awesome. Love it. So many well known early professional players between the Massillon and Canton RPPCs from that year.

jeff

[smotan_02]

Originally Posted by jefferyepayne

Haven't posted anything to this thread for a while. Thought I'd share this fantastic RPPC of the 1906 Massillon Tigers, 1906 Ohio League Champions after defeating the Canton Bulldogs two games to one in a season ending series. For those not familiar with the story, there were accusations that the second game in this series was fixed to assure there would be a lucrative third game between the teams.



A few key players in this photo include:

- Ted Nesser of the famous Nesser football family
- Peggy Parrott who is believed to have completed the first successful pass in professional football during the 1906 season
- Tiny Maxwell who the Maxwell award is named after

jeff

Jeff- what about the claims that the first pass was with Knute Rockne in 1913? I know it's a silly qualifier, but have heard that it was the Army-Notre Dame game. Only further explanation would be first "forward" pass.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[jefferyepayne]

Originally Posted by smotan_02

Jeff- what about the claims that the first pass was with Knute Rockne in 1913? I know it's a silly qualifier, but have heard that it was the Army-Notre Dame game. Only further explanation would be first "forward" pass.
Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

There were plenty of legal forward passes in football starting in 1906. However, the rules were such that it was a very risky proposition that was often considered a last resort. At that time, an incomplete pass was a turnover!

Rockne and Dorais helped to popularize the forward pass by making it a strategic weapon in 1913 and are often incorrectly credited with being the first to use it. They did practiced it all summer in 1913 while working together as lifeguards and then unleashed it on college football in the Fall.

jeff

[revmoran]

Although the forward pass had been used earlier, it was only legalized by rule changes in 1906. The idea was to encourage a more wide open game which, hopefully, would be a safer game.

The 1906 Spalding’s Guide set forth new Rule 14:

(a) A player may throw, pass, or bat the ball in any direction except toward his opponents’ goal. penalty – Loss of 5 yards.
EXCEPTION- (1) One forward pass shall be allowed to each scrimmage, provided each such pass be made by a player who was behind the line of scrimmage when the ball was put in play, and provided the ball, after being passed foward, does not touch the ground before being touched by a player of either side.
PENALTY—(1) If a forward pass be made by a player who was not behind the line of scrimmage when the ball was put in play, the ball shall go to the opponents on the spot where the pass was made. If the ball, after being passed forward, touches the ground before being touched by a player of either side, it shall go to the opponents on the spot where the pass was made.
EXCEPTION—(2) The pass may not be touched by a player who was on the line of scrimmage when the ball was put in play except by either of the two men playing on the ends of the line.
PENALTY—(2) If a forward pass is unlawfully touched by a player who was on the line of scrimmage when the ball was put in play, it shall go to the opponents on the spot where the pass was made.
EXCEPTION—(3) A forward pass over the line of scrimmage within the space of 5 yards on each side of the center shall Be unlawful.
PENALTY—(3) If the ball is passed over the line of scrimmage within the space of 5 yards on each side of the center, it shall go to the opponents on the spot where the pass was made.
EXCEPTION—{If) A forward pass by the side which does not put the ball in play in a
scrimmage shall be unlawful.
PENALTY—(4) If a forward pass is made by the side which did not put the ball in play in a scrimmage, the ball shall go to the opponents on the spot where the pass was made.
EXCEPTION—(5) A forward pass which crosses the goal line on the fly or bound without touching a player of either side, shall be declared a touchback for the defenders of the goal.

To properly enforce this rule required a true gridiron with lines both parallel and perpendicular to the Goal lines. This post card of Yale’s football field illustrates how the field was laid-out back in 1907.

[smotan_02]

Originally Posted by revmoran

Although the forward pass had been used earlier, it was only legalized by rule changes in 1906. The idea was to encourage a more wide open game which, hopefully, would be a safer game.

The 1906 Spalding’s Guide set forth new Rule 14:

(a) A player may throw, pass, or bat the ball in any direction except toward his opponents’ goal. penalty – Loss of 5 yards.
EXCEPTION- (1) One forward pass shall be allowed to each scrimmage, provided each such pass be made by a player who was behind the line of scrimmage when the ball was put in play, and provided the ball, after being passed foward, does not touch the ground before being touched by a player of either side.
PENALTY—(1) If a forward pass be made by a player who was not behind the line of scrimmage when the ball was put in play, the ball shall go to the opponents on the spot where the pass was made. If the ball, after being passed forward, touches the ground before being touched by a player of either side, it shall go to the opponents on the spot where the pass was made.
EXCEPTION—(2) The pass may not be touched by a player who was on the line of scrimmage when the ball was put in play except by either of the two men playing on the ends of the line.
PENALTY—(2) If a forward pass is unlawfully touched by a player who was on the line of scrimmage when the ball was put in play, it shall go to the opponents on the spot where the pass was made.
EXCEPTION—(3) A forward pass over the line of scrimmage within the space of 5 yards on each side of the center shall Be unlawful.
PENALTY—(3) If the ball is passed over the line of scrimmage within the space of 5 yards on each side of the center, it shall go to the opponents on the spot where the pass was made.
EXCEPTION—{If) A forward pass by the side which does not put the ball in play in a
scrimmage shall be unlawful.
PENALTY—(4) If a forward pass is made by the side which did not put the ball in play in a scrimmage, the ball shall go to the opponents on the spot where the pass was made.
EXCEPTION—(5) A forward pass which crosses the goal line on the fly or bound without touching a player of either side, shall be declared a touchback for the defenders of the goal.

To properly enforce this rule required a true gridiron with lines both parallel and perpendicular to the Goal lines. This post card of Yale’s football field illustrates how the field was laid-out back in 1907.

Thanks guys. Great knowledge. Pulled out one of my old books after read this and found this as well. The book is "The Big Game", 1947

Edit to add: You could argue that the forward pass was attributed to Theodore (he hated Teddy) Roosevelt:
But in 1905, President Theodore Roosevelt aimed to clean-up the sport (football) rather than abolish it. “Roosevelt didn’t intend to eliminate the occasional broken nose or fractured arm,” writes biographer H. W. Brands, “but the head and neck injuries that were literally killing dozens of players every year were hardly improving the physical or moral health of the nation.” So Roosevelt held a White House conference with leading football figures to get the game “played on a thoroughly clean basis.”

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[revmoran]

There is an interesting article on this highlighting the role of Pop Warner and Carlisle on the Smithsonian website

For the 1907 season, Warner created a new offense dubbed “the Carlisle formation,” an early evolution of the single wing. A player could run, pass or kick without the defense divining intent from the formation. The forward pass was just the kind of “trick” the old stalwarts avoided but Warner loved, and one he soon found his players loved as well. “Once they started practicing it, Warner pretty much couldn’t stop them,” says Sally Jenkins, author of The Real All Americans, a book about Carlisle’s football legacy. “How the Indians did take to it!” Warner remembered, according to Jenkins’ book. “Light on their feet as professional dancers, and every one amazingly skillful with his hands, the redskins pirouetted in and out until the receiver was well down the field, and then they shot the ball like a bullet.”

Carlisle opened the 1907 season with a 40-0 triumph over Lebanon Valley, then ran off five more victories by a total score of 148-11 before traveling to the University of Pennsylvania’s Franklin Field (still used today) to meet undefeated and un-scored upon Pennsylvania before 22,800 fans in Philadelphia.

On the second play of the game, Carlisle’s Pete Hauser, who lined up at fullback, launched a long pass that William Gardner caught on the dead run and carried short of the goal, setting up the game’s first touchdown. The Indians completed 8 of 16 passes, including one thrown by a player relatively new to the varsity squad named Jim Thorpe. The sub-headline to the New York Times account of the game read: “Forward Pass, Perfectly Employed, Used for Ground Gaining More Than Any Other Style of Play.” The story reported that “forward passes, end runs behind compact interference from direct passes, delayed passes and punting were the Indians’ principal offensive tactics.”