Western Association Old Judges

[felada]

That gunson is great

[kkkkandp]

Originally Posted by felada

That gunson is great

Thanks, David, but PSA says it's only "Good!"

[ramram]

Originally Posted by kkkkandp

Next in line...

1888 Kansas City Blues

Whoa, Kevin, lot's of KC beauties. If they ever wanna come home to Kansas City, keep me in mind!

Rob M

[oldjudge]

All beauties, but I especially like the Gunson and Reynolds cards, both with gloves on both hands. Please keep posting images!

[ValKehl]

Originally Posted by kkkkandp

They're all not that beautiful. Wait until you see the rest!

Kevin, I see what you mean - these last 4 OJs are really crappy compared to the first 3 you posted!

[pro9]

I know it's not an OJ, but it is a Sioux City player (Weber) from that time period.

[Angyale]

Didnt remember he was with KC. Guess I have 2 WAs.

Angyale

[kkkkandp]

Originally Posted by pro9

I know it's not an OJ, but it is a Sioux City player (Weber) from that time period.

That's a beauty, Elliot!

[oldjudge]

Great cabinet! It makes you wish that Goodwin had included more portraits in the set. You should pick up an Old Judge as a companion piece.

[pro9]

Jay, are there WA N173's?

[oldjudge]

There are Western Association N173s that were issued in both 1888 and 1889. They are less common than N173s from NL or AA teams, however. Since N173s could be ordered from checklists included in Old Judge packs, cabinets representing teams from large population cities are amongst the most common.

[oldjudge]

Another 1888 Des Moines for the group

[kkkkandp]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Another 1888 Des Moines for the group

Geez, it doesn't get much better than that!

I would have posted these sooner, but we retirees do have to play golf, you know!

1888 Omaha Omahogs

and

1888 Chicago Maroons

[trdcrdkid]

You guys are killing me with these beautiful cards! At least I have one of the cards Kevin just posted, the 1888 Germany Long. 🙂

[shernan30]

Some great cards everyone!!

[pro9]

Kevin, I guess Swartzel got cold after they took his picture for your OJ, so he put his jacket on.

[oldjudge]

Great Swartzel cabinet. Over the years I've seen a few N173 type images on blank cabinets, but not that often.

[kkkkandp]

That's another beauty, Elliot!

The players with that coat on always make me chuckle. They sort of remind me of a chef's jacket.

[Jobu]

Mr. Cody

[oldjudge]

Nice card of Mike Cody. Every time I see those uniforms I wonder how uncomfortable they must have been on a hot summer day.

[oldjudge]

Oh, Kevin--great cards as always. You have some beauties. Also, good luck to anyone going after the great Old Judges in REA. Maybe there will be images of some new acquisitions going up on Monday.

[Joe_G.]

Originally Posted by Angyale

Didnt remember he was with KC. Guess I have 2 WAs.

Angyale

Hello Eric,

Great card of Hamilton, but his debut in 1889 was with the American Association Kansas City Cowboys. The Western Association KC Blues had folded by 1889 and can only be found in the Old Judge set in 1888. In 1888, there would be both American Association (KC Cowboys) and Western Association (KC Blues) cards in the set. Goodwin & Co. didn't help the consumers/collectors by signifying the difference between these two teams like they did for other duplications within a city (Chicago cards are either listed as "Chicago" for NL or "Chicago Maroons" for WA, St. Louis cards are either listed "St. Louis" or "St. Louis Browns" for NL or "St Louis Whites" for WA).

Originally Posted by pro9

Jay, are there WA N173's?

There are N173 cards for WA teams, but as Jay stated, they didn't have the same following as the popular players from big cities so they are few and far between. I think I've seen N173 examples from just about all the Western Association teams, one currently being auctioned by REA (1888 Hunkey Hines N173).

Love all the nice Fb cards posted by Jay, Kevin, and others. An interesting note on Kevin's Kansas City Blues, the last three (Gunson, Reynolds, and Swartzel) would all move to the AA KC Cowboys in 1889. Each of them would have their 1888 photos with the Blues re-issued in 1889, then as Cowboys. While the 1889 AA KC cards are relatively easy, those Fb KC Blues can be very tough.

[Joe_G.]

Love the Klusman progression Jay, love the Kansas City collection Rob (especially the Pete Conway cabinet).

Figure I should contribute. I gave up on collecting WA long ago, sold and traded away what few I had. The examples I now have typically came as part of package deal while trying to obtain a Detroit card. I only have one Fb, all the rest being Fc (not surprising). I'll also post the Fa vs Fb vs Fc cheat sheet that I previously shared to help those that might be scratching their heads.

[Kenny Cole]

My few

[oldjudge]

Kenny-A beautiful Lowe and some nice HOFers.
Joe--Was that Nicholson-Maroons ever yours? That is a scarce one
I thought I would add a nice card for our Denver fans:

[oldjudge]

BTW, as an aside, even though all of Ted Kennedy's 1889 cards list him with Omaha, he in fact spent the entire season with Des Moines. He started the 1888 season with Des Moines, then moved to Omaha later that year. For 1889 he returned to Des Moines. As far as I can tell, Goodwin and Co never picked up the move back to Des Moines. Please correct your Old Judge book bios as we incorrectly had him spending 1889 with the Omahogs.

[Joe_G.]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Joe--Was that Nicholson-Maroons ever yours? That is a scarce one
I thought I would add a nice card for our Denver fans:

That isn't a Dave Rowe you see everyday, beautiful!

I've had Maroons but none of the real tough ones, certainly no Nicholson.

[oldjudge]

Ah, because the Nicholson was in your Fb examples

[kkkkandp]

A couple more from storage:

1888 Saint Louis Whites

[oldjudge]

Great Whites' cards. Speaking of the Whites, did anyone else notice the Hines Whites N173 in REA? If I'm not mistaken that is the first Whites Old Judge cabinet I have ever seen. Unless I missed one, there are also none in the Cartophilic Society listing. It makes sense that they should be rare, as the team folded after less than two months.

[kkkkandp]

Sorry for the long post. These are the remainder of my 1888s.

1888 Minneapolis Millers

[Baseball Rarities]

Wow Kevin. All of those have amazing photos. Great group.

[oldjudge]

Kevin-You know N173s really well. Have you ever seen a Whites cabinet before?

[Baseball Rarities]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Kevin-You know N173s really well. Have you ever seen a Whites cabinet before?

No, not until the brown mount Hines in REA.

[Joe_G.]

Nice cards Kevin!, the 1888 Minneapolis cards are a bit easier to collect than the other 1888 Western Association teams with most of the players/poses being Fa cards.

Regarding Western Association cabinets, we do know that in general the 1889 cabinets are more common than 1888 which would suggest the most difficult WA teams would be Chicago Maroons, Kansas City Blues, and St. Louis Whites (these three would not make it to 1889). Of these three teams, St. Louis Whites was the first to disband (June 20th of 1888) which likely led to extremely few cabinets being ordered. The new for 1889 teams (Sioux City, Denver, & St Joseph) may follow with the teams that played both years being more likely to surface.

I just caught your last comment on the Nicholson . . . the Nicholson I used as an Fb example might be from your collection (or Burdick, LOC, etc.). That Fa/Fb/Fc composite is from ten years ago when we were gathering lots of images for the book. I will re-create Fa vs Fb vs Fc from my collection (all Detroit)

[oldjudge]

There is another reason for the rarity of Whites' cabinets. The Whites were set up as a farm team for the hometown Browns, with Von der Ahe owning both teams. The Browns were the power of the American Association and the Whites were a weak squad. Von der Ahe saw the folly of his idea and quickly folded the team. If you were a baseball fan in St Louis in 1888, you most probably were a Browns fan. It is hard to conceive that a St Louis native who had saved up coupons to get an Old Judge cabinet would not choose a player from the champion Browns.
Interestingly, the one year teams from the 1888 Western Association all were in cities where the competed with an American Association or National League team. The Western Association learned from the 1888 experience; the new 1889 teams were their city's sole representative in the big leagues.

[oldjudge]

Kevin--Which team is next? Amazing collection!
Whoever won the big Old Judge lot in REA should have some to post (or future winners in Sterling).

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Kevin--Which team is next? Amazing collection

I agree, amazing stuff Kevin, that's why you're Mr. NJ-OJ. Why didn't you include your Jordan card in with the Minneapolis group, or was it posted earlier and I missed it?

[oldjudge]

Hi John! Being Mr NJ-OJ is no small deal. He has to compete with you half the year. BTW, is Jordan wearing catcher's gear or a hasmat suit?

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Hi John! Being Mr NJ-OJ is no small deal. He has to compete with you half the year. BTW, is Jordan wearing catcher's gear or a hasmat suit?

He's actually wearing his turtle shell pajamas made from a real turtle.

Kevin holds the title. I let him off the hook for awhile as I save up for a large non-OJ purchase

[kkkkandp]

Originally Posted by z28jd

Kevin holds the title. I let him off the hook for awhile as I save up for a large non-OJ purchase

Very kind of you, John, to take the pressure off me for a while, but you're still not getting your hands on my Corcoran.

And thanks, too, for rubbing it in that Jordan is one of the HUNDREDS of N172s I don't own.

Let me know when you're ready to take the OJ-NJ title so I can move to a state where there's less competition - maybe Florida!

[oldjudge]

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but neither of you guys is in the running for Mr FL-OJ.

[pro9]

Does anybody know who this is?

[kkkkandp]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but neither of you guys is in the running for Mr FL-OJ.

So, what's my best bet for state supremacy - Rhode Island? South Carolina? Idaho? Utah? Alaska?

[oldjudge]

S Dakota might be OK, I can't think of any big OJ collections there. Maybe you should skip states. How about Mr. Guam-OJ?

[kkkkandp]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

S Dakota might be OK, I can't think of any big OJ collections there. Maybe you should skip states. How about Mr. Guam-OJ?

My wife likes the beach, but I think Guam is a little too close to Kim Jong Un for either of our likings.

So, who's up for some 1889 Western Association cards?

1889 Denver Grizzlies/Mountaineers

[seattlerainiers]

Here are a few

[oldjudge]

Beautiful cards Dave! Well Kevin, you can cross Washington off your Mr OJ list.

[kkkkandp]

Originally Posted by seattlerainiers

Here are a few

WHOOOEEE! I love the Nicholson and McCauley!

[Joe_G.]

Originally Posted by seattlerainiers

Here are a few (Maroons)

Now that is a treat for anyone who has collected Old Judges for awhile, very nice!