T206 Reference / Reflections.....Tuesday Nite Trivia

[judsonhamlin]

I'll be the third wheel here for a second. If we think of T206 as the sum of a math (or maths, if you're an Anglophile) equation, it would look like this:

ALC + ATC + (national or regional retail distribution) + (1909-11) + "white border" format = T206

If one of those is absent, then the answer can't be T206. Leaving aside that T213-1 might be the same sum, the Ty Cobb most likely fails on the distribution and maybe date of issue. While Ty Cobb tins exist, linking them to an inserted card is problematic at best. Given the sheer volume of tobacco and other tins people saved - go to any antique mall if you have any doubt - tins of the most popular player of his day would've been saved as much as Prince Albert or whatever. Yet there are very few known, suggesting a limited retail presence. And, if the date is also ambiguous, that's another strike against Ty.

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by judsonhamlin

I'll be the third wheel here for a second. If we think of T206 as the sum of a math (or maths, if you're an Anglophile) equation, it would look like this:

ALC + ATC + (national or regional retail distribution) + (1909-11) + "white border" format = T206

If one of those is absent, then the answer can't be T206. Leaving aside that T213-1 might be the same sum, the Ty Cobb most likely fails on the distribution and maybe date of issue. While Ty Cobb tins exist, linking them to an inserted card is problematic at best. Given the sheer volume of tobacco and other tins people saved - go to any antique mall if you have any doubt - tins of the most popular player of his day would've been saved as much as Prince Albert or whatever. Yet there are very few known, suggesting a limited retail presence. And, if the date is also ambiguous, that's another strike against Ty.

You're never the third wheel Judd...and isn't it time for another get together?

[judsonhamlin]

Yes it is. If we start now, we should get it all together by October or so

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by judsonhamlin

Yes it is. If we start now, we should get it all together by October or so

That soon?

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by judsonhamlin

I'll be the third wheel here for a second. If we think of T206 as the sum of a math (or maths, if you're an Anglophile) equation, it would look like this:

ALC + ATC + (national or regional retail distribution) + (1909-11) + "white border" format = T206

If one of those is absent, then the answer can't be T206. Leaving aside that T213-1 might be the same sum, the Ty Cobb most likely fails on the distribution and maybe date of issue. While Ty Cobb tins exist, linking them to an inserted card is problematic at best. Given the sheer volume of tobacco and other tins people saved - go to any antique mall if you have any doubt - tins of the most popular player of his day would've been saved as much as Prince Albert or whatever. Yet there are very few known, suggesting a limited retail presence. And, if the date is also ambiguous, that's another strike against Ty.

Hi Judson

There is no ambiguity regarding the date of the Ty Cobb Tobacco tin...…

Newspaper excerpt....The Reidsville Review....Nov 16 1909

"The Penn Tobacco Co. began this week placing on the market a new brand
of plug cut granulated smoking tobacco which will be encased in tin boxes.
The name of the brand is "Ty Cobb". It should be a fine seller, for there is
plenty of quality."


Furthermore, my research indicates that the date of the Ty Cobb card is definitely Circa..early 1910 for several reasons, two of which are:

1.....the red portrait Cobb was printed when American Lithographic started printing their 350 Series cards (Circa..late 1909 - early 1910).

2....Senator Richard Russell, whose tobacco card collection includes the Ty Cobb/TY COBB card, acquired his collection during 1909-1910. * *
He stopped smoking and collecting tobacco cards at age 14 when his parents enrolled him in the Gordon Military Institute in 1911.
The make up of Russell's 507-card T206 set indicates to us that the majority of his collecting days were in 1910.


* * note
Biography of Richard B. Russell, Jr.


TED Z
.

[judsonhamlin]

I agree that the article is consistent with the planned marketing of Ty Cobb tobacco, but I am still dubious about the actual marketing. The sheer absence of more surviving tins in the collecting community makes me think that the plans of Penn Tobacco went nowhere.
And while the Russell collection is some proof of the date of the card (as opposed to the date of the tin), I'd be hard pressed to say that is dispositive. It could conceivably have been a later gift to him as a State Representative or Governor by someone who knew of his love of the game. As to the image, that was used throughout the decade, which doesn't preclude a later date of issue.
All in all, and not (necessarily) to stir the pot, I think T213-1 has a better claim to be included in the T206 but..

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by judsonhamlin

I agree that the article is consistent with the planned marketing of Ty Cobb tobacco, but I am still dubious about the actual marketing. The sheer absence of more surviving tins in the collecting community makes me think that the plans of Penn Tobacco went nowhere.
And while the Russell collection is some proof of the date of the card (as opposed to the date of the tin), I'd be hard pressed to say that is dispositive. It could conceivably have been a later gift to him as a State Representative or Governor by someone who knew of his love of the game. As to the image, that was used throughout the decade, which doesn't preclude a later date of issue.
All in all, and not (necessarily) to stir the pot, I think T213-1 has a better claim to be included in the T206 but..

First, regarding your last statement, I absolutely agree that the 1910 COUPON set of 68 cards should be considered as an integral part of the T206 set.

As a youngster, Russel traveled with his Dad (a Judge who often traveled 50 miles to Atlanta) which could be how he acquired his Ty Cobb card. However, how do you account
for the tobacco stains on some of these Ty Cobb cards which had to be because some were inserted in the Tobacco Tins. Which proves that these cards were issued during the
1910 timeframe.


TED Z
.

[Sterling Sports Auctions]

Trying to unsubscribe, carry on. :-)

[Sean]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Judson

There is no ambiguity regarding the date of the Ty Cobb Tobacco tin...…

Newspaper excerpt....The Reidsville Review....Nov 16 1909

"The Penn Tobacco Co. began this week placing on the market a new brand
of plug cut granulated smoking tobacco which will be encased in tin boxes.
The name of the brand is "Ty Cobb". It should be a fine seller, for there is
plenty of quality."


Furthermore, my research indicates that the date of the Ty Cobb card is definitely Circa..early 1910 for several reasons, two of which are:

1.....the red portrait Cobb was printed when American Lithographic started printing their 350 Series cards (Circa..late 1909 - early 1910).

2....Senator Richard Russell, whose tobacco card collection includes the Ty Cobb/TY COBB card, acquired his collection during 1909-1910. * *
He stopped smoking and collecting tobacco cards at age 14 when his parents enrolled him in the Gordon Military Institute in 1911.
The make up of Russell's 507-card T206 set indicates to us that the majority of his collecting days were in 1910.


* * note
Biography of Richard B. Russell, Jr.


TED Z
.

I guess that I'm naive, but I'm shocked that Russell was already an ex-smoker at the age of 14.

[tedzan]

Russell started smoking at a very early age. He was forced to stop smoking during his 4 years at the Military Institute. As an adult he continued to smoke.

Judging from his tobacco card collection (1000+ cards), he smoked PIEDMONT and OLD MILL cigarettes


TED Z
.

[tedzan]

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 REFERENCE....Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *





CYCLE 350 cards are an integral part of the A-B-C-D connection ** in the 350 Series of the T206 set. American Litho printed the A - B - C - D cards...circa Summer 1910.

The CYCLE 350 cards appear to be easier to find than the AB 350, or BL 350, or DRUM for a given subject. I would be interested if any of you have had a tough time finding
a CYCLE 350 card of any T206 ?

** Note The significance of the A-B-C-D connection in the 350 series is read in thread...… T206 DRUM's....and their "A-B-C-D connection"


A - B - C - D connection
. . .


Complete CYCLE 350 checklist..... 190 subjects

Abbott
Abstein
Adkins
Anderson
Arellanes
Armbruster
Arndt
Atz
Barbeau
Barry (A's)
Barry (Milwaukee)
Batch
Beck
Becker
Beckley
Bender (trees)
Bescher (portrait)
Blackburne
Bliss
Brain

Brashear
Bresnahan (bat)
Burchell
Burke
Burns
Bush
Butler
Campbell
Carr
Carrigan
Casey
Cassidy
Chance (portrait-yellow)
Chappelle
Charles
Chase (portrait-blue)
Chase (dark cap)
Clancy
Clark
Clymer

Cobb (portrait-red)
Collins (A's)
Congalton
Cravath
Cree
Davidson
Delehanty (Louisville)
Dessau
Dineen
Donovan (throwing)
Doolan (fielding)
Dorner
Downey (fielding)
Downs
Dubuc
Dunn (Baltimore)
Dunn (Brooklyn)
Dygert
Easterly
Egan

Engle
Evers (bat-yellow sky)
Ferguson
Fiene (portrait)
Fiene (throwing)
Flanagan
Fletcher
Freeman
Fromme
Ganzel
Gasper
Graham (Boston)
Graham (St Louis)
Grimshaw
Hall
Hallman
Hannifan
Hartsel
Hayden
Hinchman (Toledo)

Hoblitzell
Hoffman (Providence)
Hoffman (St Louis)
Hofman
Howard (Chicago)
Howell (portrait)
Huggins (portrait)
Huggins (hands at mouth)
Hulswitt
Hunter
Jackson
Jones (Detroit)
Kelley
Killian (portrait)
Kisinger
Knabe
Knight (portrait)
Knight (bat)
Krause (portrait)
Krause (pitching)

Kroh
Kruger
Laporte
Lattimore
Lavender
Lennox
Livingstone
Lord
Maddox
Malarkey
Maloney
Marquard (portrait)
Marshall
Mathewson (dark cap)
McAleese
McBride
McCormick
Mc Elveen
McGann
McGinley

McGinnity
McGlynn
McIntyre (Detroit)
Merritt
Milan
Miller (Pittsburg)
Milligan
Mitchell (Cinci)
Mitchell (Toronto)
Moeller
Moran (Chicago)
Moran (Providence)
Moriarty
Mullin (portrait)
Murray (bat)
Myers (bat)
Myers (fielding)
Nattress
Oakes
Oberlin

O'Brien
O'Neill
Paskert
Perring
Pfeister (seated)
Phelan
Phelps
Phillippe
Pickering
Poland
Purtell
Quillen
Quinn
Randall
Raymond
Rhoades (hands at chest)
Rhodes
Ritter
Rudolph
Schirm

Schlafly
Schmidt (portrait)
Schreck
Scott
Sharpe
Shaw (Providence)
Slagle
Smith (Buffalo)
Snodgrass (bat)
Speaker
Stanage
Starr
Stephens
Strang
Street (portrait)
Summers
Sweeney (Boston)
J. Tannehill (Washington)
Taylor
Thielmann

Thomas
Titus
Unglaub
Warhop
White (Buffalo)
Willett
Wilson
Wright
Irv Young
Zimmerman


TED Z
.

[Rich Falvo]

Originally Posted by tedzan

The CYCLE 350 cards appear to be easier to find than the AB 350, or BL 350, or DRUM for a given subject. I would be interested if any of you have had a tough time finding
a CYCLE 350 card of any T206 ?

I only really follow the Providence players and I've had a hard time finding a Cycle for Lavender or Shaw. The AB, BL, and Drums aren't very available either.

[tedzan]

Hi Rich

I've seen a couple of AB 350 cards and a couple of CYCLE 350 cards of Hunky Shaw, but no BL 350, or DRUM.

Lavender.....one AB 350, and no CYCLE 350, no BL 350, and no DRUM.

I think some of the Minor Leaguers were short-printed with the A - B -C - D backs. I will do some homework on this subject.


TED Z
.