Poll: response to recent PWCC revelations

[Peter_Spaeth]

It's anonymous so please be candid.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Not seeing the poll, Peter.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Never mind...

[Stampsfan]

I'm done with those guys. No need to feel anonymous.

[pokerplyr80]

I doubt many here will agree with my point of view publicly but I have not seen any direct evidence of PWCC's involvement besides the acknowledgment of the relationship with Moser and a few cards supposedly bought using their Ebay ID that were later conserved and resold.

I am bidding in their current auction.

The first time I wanted to sell a few cards but didn't know how to go about it ir even whether or not to use a 3rd party or AH. I did some research on my own, talked to a few members here, and decided to send them to PWCC. I was pleased overall with the results and even pleasantly surprised by a few of them. They have received every card I've consigned since. Except for a couple I didn't want to auction.

Unless some direct evidence comes to light implicating them I don't see that changing in the near future.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Excerpt from a 2008 email from Brent in an exchange about why he was selling cards for Gary.

"I'm not ignorant, and I know what Gary does for a living..."

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I doubt many here will agree with my point of view publicly but I have not seen any direct evidence of PWCC's involvement besides the acknowledgment of the relationship with Moser and a few cards supposedly bought using their Ebay ID that were later conserved and resold.

I am bidding in their current auction.

The first time I wanted to sell a few cards but didn't know how to go about it ir even whether or not to use a 3rd party or AH. I did some research on my own, talked to a few members here, and decided to send them to PWCC. I was pleased overall with the results and even pleasantly surprised by a few of them. They have received every card I've consigned since. Except for a couple I didn't want to auction.

Unless some direct evidence comes to light implicating them I don't see that changing in the near future.

To paraphrase Paul Simon, a man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest. The willful blindness here is truly astounding. I do hope you haven't been burned in your past dealings and don't get burned in your future ones. Or maybe if your cards are altered you don't care, I don't know. If a decade long relationship with a man who appears to have altered cards to the tune of millions of dollars doesn't do much for you, then nothing will, not even the email I posted, you'll just spin that too. But hell if someone can believe Sandy Hook didn't happen, anything is possible in this crazy world.

[pokerplyr80]

I am not convinced that any AH has refused to accept consignments from all known or suspected card doctors in the past. I assume they all have accepted them at one point or another. Perhaps they knew and perhaps they didn't. But in the end I don't think it matters. Ban one name and someone will find a way to submit under another.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I am not convinced that any AH has refused to accept consignments from all known or suspected card doctors in the past. I assume they all have accepted them at one point or another. Perhaps they knew and perhaps they didn't. But in the end I don't think it matters. Ban one name and someone will find a way to submit under another.

None of that has anything to do with your statement about direct evidence about PWCC. You're changing the topic.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

None of that has anything to do with your statement about direct evidence about PWCC. You're changing the topic.

Both points are relevant. The email you posted proves Brent knew what Moser did for a living. Assuming the email was from him. It doesn't even prove that Moser was submitting under his own name. Not to mention that anyone at pwcc knew of specific cards being altered or that they were directly involved in the alterations and grading as others have alleged.

[Dpeck100]

I answered yes I would keep buying in their auctions.

PWCC is just an EBAY auction house to me. They have consistently gotten the best cards and if the cards leave them I will go there. I have had nothing but very positive dealings with them and while I mindful of what is happening around me I have no interest in blocking myself from the market.

[frankbmd]

The bank officer is held up at gunpoint and tells the gunman, “Go ahead and shoot. If you don’t kill me, the next bank robber will. I have no evidence that either gun isn’t loaded.”

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Both points are relevant. The email you posted proves Brent knew what Moser did for a living. Assuming the email was from him. It doesn't even prove that Moser was submitting under his own name. Not to mention that anyone at pwcc knew of specific cards being altered or that they were directly involved in the alterations and grading as others have alleged.

Believe what you want out on your limb, I don't care any more.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Believe what you want out on your limb, I don't care any more.

You may be right, and you may not. I'm just not convinced. I don't think I'm out on a limb as far as you think I am. And I still don't think this will bring down PWCC or PSA. Unless it leads to someone new entering either market and gaining the trust of the hobby.

I could see someone coming out with a better grading method capable of detecting the alterations PSA and bgs have apparently been missing. Maybe then an auction house will be started promising only to sell cards that can be guaranteed unaltered. If enough people buy into it things could change. Perhaps a second grading scale will be developed that takes a card's current state and level of alteration or restoration into consideration.

But however it plays out it will be interesting to see.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

You may be right, and you may not. I'm just not convinced. I don't think I'm out on a limb as far as you think I am. And I still don't think this will bring down PWCC or PSA. Unless it leads to someone new entering either market and gaining the trust of the hobby.

I could see someone coming out with a better grading method capable of detecting the alterations PSA and bgs have apparently been missing. Maybe then an auction house will be started promising only to sell cards that can be guaranteed unaltered. If enough people buy into it things could change. Perhaps a second grading scale will be developed that takes a card's current state and level of alteration or restoration into consideration.

But however it plays out it will be interesting to see.

I agree with you there, it will definitely be interesting and there are lots of aspects to it. And there is no question there are many culpable parties in this mess, but in my opinion that doesn't excuse a specific culpable party.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

You may be right, and you may not. I'm just not convinced. I don't think I'm out on a limb as far as you think I am. And I still don't think this will bring down PWCC or PSA. Unless it leads to someone new entering either market and gaining the trust of the hobby.

I could see someone coming out with a better grading method capable of detecting the alterations PSA and bgs have apparently been missing. Maybe then an auction house will be started promising only to sell cards that can be guaranteed unaltered. If enough people buy into it things could change. Perhaps a second grading scale will be developed that takes a card's current state and level of alteration or restoration into consideration.

But however it plays out it will be interesting to see.

Jesse, purely out of curiosity, what would you be looking for as proof that PWCC knowingly sold doctored cards other than what has come out so far. Are you waiting for video evidence of Brent physically taking cards from Moser with audio of them discussing the alterations? I'm seriously just curious what you need to read/see to have even a slight distaste for PWCC or PSA at this point. Not trying to argue at all.

[Chris Counts]

I never bought from these guys before because they're winning bids were so high, and there was a lot of talk about shilling. But now, with all the negative publicity certain to scare off at least some of their customers, I'm looking at their auctions and trying to find some low grade or undergraded bargains.

[pokerplyr80]

I just don't think the auction house is where the focus should be. It's almost irrelevant to the situation in my opinion. The cards were altered to one degree or another and certified by the most trusted grading companies in the world. Any auction house would have accepted them.

Many of these cards that were outed simply had something removed from the card. If the card doctors are skilled enough to remove a stain with no trace, what is there to detect? These cards shouldn't be in the conversation at all. Unless you have a problem with those doing the altering.

Cards that were trimmed, recolored, or rebuilt (corners) are the issue. How was this not detected? Especially on modern cards that should all measure 2.5 by 3.5. These are the cases were it seems clear fraud was committed. And someone at the grading company has either been paid off or they're just incompetent. These cards shouldn't just slip through the cracks. But again, once they're graded how is the auction house supposed to know? They don't spend hours looking through every similar card sold previously. They don't have the benefit of before and after scans.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If I didn't sell the drugs to that guy, someone else would have. So what?

I agree there are lots of places that need focus, absolutely, but that doesn't minimize the role of a major ebay seller knowingly enabling a card doctor, in my always humble opinion. And no he is not the only one by any stretch, but he's put himself in the crosshairs by all the good for the hobby stuff and complete hypocrisy, and the paper trail, so he will reap what he sowed, or should anyhow.

You want evidence? He was disproportionately stickering Moser cards and recommending that people like the 52 Bowman Musial guy buy them. To the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars or more.

By the way I suspect we have not heard the last of all the modern trimmed stuff sold through PWCC either.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

Jesse, purely out of curiosity, what would you be looking for as proof that PWCC knowingly sold doctored cards other than what has come out so far. Are you waiting for video evidence of Brent physically taking cards from Moser with audio of them discussing the alterations? I'm seriously just curious what you need to read/see to have even a slight distaste for PWCC or PSA at this point. Not trying to argue at all.

If there was truly something that crossed the legal line in this Moser / PWCC relationship and they were in it together I think there would be some proof short of video evidence. Payments, emails back and forth. If Brent was buying cards, sending them to Moser to doctor, then sending them into PSA directly to be graded, and finally selling them on his own site there would be some kind of evidence left behind. Especially if it's been going on for a decade or more. Something coming out along these lines would convince me.

My guess is that at best PWCC looked the other way when taking these consignments and didn't ask which cards were altered. And I also assume this was not unique to PWCC, but was going on everywhere to one degree or another. I realize that if I'm proven wrong I'll never hear the end of it. And that could happen. I just don't see it at this point.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

If there was truly something that crossed the legal line in this Moser / PWCC relationship and they were in it together I think there would be some proof short of video evidence. Payments, emails back and forth. If Brent was buying cards, sending them to Moser to doctor, then sending them into PSA directly to be graded, and finally selling them on his own site there would be some kind of evidence left behind. Especially if it's been going on for a decade or more. Something coming out along these lines would convince me.

My guess is that at best PWCC looked the other way when taking these consignments and didn't ask which cards were altered. And I also assume this was not unique to PWCC, but was going on everywhere to one degree or another. I realize that if I'm proven wrong I'll never hear the end of it. And that could happen. I just don't see it at this point.

Looking the other way knowing damn well who you're dealing with, and then recommending people buy the cards as investments, would be more than enough for me, and I assume for most people.

Would you feel the same way if he was taking cards from someone he knew to be the best counterfeiter in the hobby? Oh, but he didn't know that specific card was counterfeit, they didn't discuss it. So what?

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I just don't think the auction house is where the focus should be. It's almost irrelevant to the situation in my opinion. The cards were altered to one degree or another and certified by the most trusted grading companies in the world. Any auction house would have accepted them.

So even with all the evidence proving that PWCC sold hundreds of altered cards for (so far) close to a million dollars, you still don't think they should be part of the conversation. We aren't talking about an AH not knowingly taking a few altered graded cards and selling them. We are seeing proof of this activity happening repeatedly hundreds of times by the same two guys. You don't think they both know what's going on?

[Copa7]

I believe each to his/her own.

But for the record, I prefer to know those that are OK with buying from PWCC. At least this way, I know not to purchase from those when they try to liquidate their tainted collection.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If I didn't sell the drugs to that guy, someone else would have. So what?.

In that situation, much like this one, I would be concerned with the guys producing, growing, transporting, etc. Escobar, El Chapo, than i would be the guys selling 20 bags on the street. But that's different because no one could unknowingly sell an 8 ball. Everyone involved knows they're breaking the law.

But should some of these drugs even be illegal? That's an issue for another discussion.

I'd also be much more concerned with someone becoming a billionaire by convincing doctors across the country to get people hooked on oxy than a doctor who wrote a few too many scripts.

Go to the source if you want to fix the problem.

[Peter_Spaeth]

To me there are three issues here of equal importance. The card doctors. The sellers enabling the card doctors. And the TPGs (hopefully due to incompetence not fraud) slabbing doctored cards. I think all three need to be addressed and I'll take intervention at any and all levels.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

So even with all the evidence proving that PWCC sold hundreds of altered cards for (so far) close to a million dollars, you still don't think they should be part of the conversation. We aren't talking about an AH not knowingly taking a few altered graded cards and selling them. We are seeing proof of this activity happening repeatedly hundreds of times by the same two guys. You don't think they both know what's going on?

What if someone starts digging into heritage, rea, goldin, etc and finds before and after scans for a few hundred cards? Should we stop buying from all of them? Should we automatically assume the AH is at fault?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

What if someone starts digging into heritage, rea, goldin, etc and finds before and after scans for a few hundred cards? Should we stop buying from all of them? Should we automatically assume the AH is at fault?

Again, Brent has admitted knowing he was selling altered cards for Gary. This is not in controversy. I think the case against each other seller would have to depend on the facts. I strongly suspect many of them knew exactly what they were doing, and in at least one other case of an AH I have had that conversation, but I don't have the same level of evidence nor has the same overwhelming circumstantial evidence yet been uncovered.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

What if someone starts digging into heritage, rea, goldin, etc and finds before and after scans for a few hundred cards? Should we stop buying from all of them? Should we automatically assume the AH is at fault?

Yes.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Copa7

I believe each to his/her own.

But for the record, I prefer to know those that are OK with buying from PWCC. At least this way, I know not to purchase from those when they try to liquidate their tainted collection.

This. I voted that I would never buy/consign from them again. I'm good with that. I am stunned by the level/number of people who are OK with being lied to and defrauded, but I get that stuff trumps all and for some people, the number on that flip is all that matters.

That "proof" argument? Pleeeeease. Give me a break. The very fact that you would even make that argument says so much. I agree that I hope that everyone who feels that way identifies themselves so I don't ever make the mistake of dealing with you.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

This. I voted that I would never buy/consign from them again. I'm good with that. I am stunned by the level/number of people who are OK with being lied to and defrauded, but I get that stuff trumps all and for some people, the number on that flip is all that matters.

That "proof" argument? Pleeeeease. Give me a break. The very fact that you would even make that argument says so much. I agree that I hope that everyone who feels that way identifies themselves so I don't ever make the mistake of dealing with you.

I guess emails aren't proof these days.

[Kenny Cole]

You can't fix either stupid or willful ignorance. Now, I just want to know who they are so I can avoid them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

You can't fix either stupid or willful ignorance. Now, I just want to know who they are so I can avoid them.

As unscientific as the poll is, I am encouraged that the number saying they will stop is twice as large as the number saying they will continue.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I guess emails aren't proof these days.

A wise man once said


Stuff trumps all


Please dont come crying here, or to PSA when a majority of your "best cards" are proven altered or suspect. Live by the sword, die by the sword. Amirite? I, for one, wont feel the least bit sad for you. Me thinks "the best stuff", "investment grade", "eye appeal", "highest prces" "sparkly stickered: are 75% altered or shilled. Qo der how the pwcc fan boys are sleeping at night.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

A wise man once said


Stuff trumps all


Please dont come crying here, or to PSA when a majority of your "best cards" are proven altered or suspect. Live by the sword, die by the sword. Amirite? I, for one, wont feel the least bit sad for you. Me thinks "the best stuff", "investment grade", "eye appeal", "highest prces" "sparkly stickered: are 75% altered or shilled. Qo der how the pwcc fan boys are sleeping at night.

Whoever that was knew what he was talking about.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Whoever that was knew what he was talking about.

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

This. I voted that I would never buy/consign from them again. I'm good with that. I am stunned by the level/number of people who are OK with being lied to and defrauded, but I get that stuff trumps all and for some people, the number on that flip is all that matters.

That "proof" argument? Pleeeeease. Give me a break. The very fact that you would even make that argument says so much. I agree that I hope that everyone who feels that way identifies themselves so I don't ever make the mistake of dealing with you.

If you're the kind of person who passes judgement on others before the facts are out, and have a problem with me stating my opinion on this forum, than I would prefer not to do business with you either. My Ebay ID is the same as it is here. Block it. I won't lose any sleep over your decision.

I've had several successful transactions wwith no issues here and other places. I will find a place to buy and sell my cards when the need arises.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

To me there are three issues here of equal importance. The card doctors. The sellers enabling the card doctors. And the TPGs (hopefully due to incompetence not fraud) slabbing doctored cards. I think all three need to be addressed and I'll take intervention at any and all levels.

If all 3 were of equal importance to you, why was PWCC the only one in your poll?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

If all 3 were of equal importance to you, why was PWCC the only one in your poll?

I am not nearly smart enough to design a poll encompassing all three areas at once, but by all means you should.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

If you're the kind of person who passes judgement on others before the facts out, and have a problem with me stating my opinion on this forum, than I would prefer not to do business with you either. My Ebay ID is the same as it is here. Block it. I won't lose any sleep over your decision.

I've had several successful transactions wwith no issues here and other places. I will find a place to buy and sell my cards when the need arises.

Excellent. I will do that. I think you are a moron.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

If all 3 were of equal importance to you, why was PWCC the only one in your poll?

Have you read any of my posts savaging Sloan's response, by the way? If not read them and come back and make the absurd suggestion that I am not just as focused on PSA.

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

Excellent. I will do that. I think you are a moron.

Kenny, how do ad hominem attacks advance your argument?

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

Kenny, how do ad hominem attacks advance your argument?

They don't. But if you read the posts, I think you might come to the same conclusion.

[Snapolit1]

This reminds me of the news headline we have all seen over and over again....

“Lots of citizens announce they are preparing to move out of the country if _______ elected President”.

Yeah sure. And you know how many of them follow through and move out of the country? None of them.

Huge chasm between the chest thumping of what people say they are going to do and what people eventually end up doing.

[kmac32]

Doesn’t bother me one way or the other. The old addage of buy the card not the holder applies.

[Snapolit1]

Maybe I’m a broken down pathetic beyond the pale cynic, but Im guessing there are probably people out there crapping all over PWCC hoping that the nonstop negative publicity has the effect of suppressing interest (and sale prices) in upcoming auctions.

[RedsFan1941]

maybe

[vthobby]

Originally Posted by kmac32

Doesn’t bother me one way or the other. The old addage of buy the card not the holder applies.

If you have been around long enough before the TPGs AND if you have dealt with cards your entire life and have dealt honorably and had an eye for "off" cards then you buy cards in holders that you KNOW are not tampered with. There will be many bargains soon because so many naysayers are scared of everything.

I for one love the fact that folks will boycott certain sellers. More goodies for me.

Show some confidence in your abilities to detect "off" cards. Damn. I've been spotting doctored cards in TPGs for years. Many years before this "storm".

I will say that SGC has always been very good at spotting "off" cards. So have I.

Buy the card, not the holder. Are there any confident collectors left?

Peace, Mike

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vtgmsc

If you have been around long enough before the TPGs AND if you have dealt with cards your entire life and have dealt honorably and had an eye for "off" cards then you buy cards in holders that you KNOW are not tampered with. There will be many bargains soon because so many naysayers are scared of everything.

I for one love the fact that folks will boycott certain sellers. More goodies for me.

Show some confidence in your abilities to detect "off" cards. Damn. I've been spotting doctored cards in TPGs for years. Many years before this "storm".

I will say that SGC has always been very good at spotting "off" cards. So have I.

Buy the card, not the holder. Are there any confident collectors left?

Peace, Mike

I can detect many off cards, but especially without the ability to see the edges, there is NFW I can detect some of the work of the superstar card doctors, and I am skeptical most people if anybody can. Are you seriously saying that without the before pics you can find the flaws in every card that's been outed on BO?

[Fballguy]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Maybe I’m a broken down pathetic beyond the pale cynic, but Im guessing there are probably people out there crapping all over PWCC hoping that the nonstop negative publicity has the effect of suppressing interest (and sale prices) in upcoming auctions.

Fool me once...

It's your money man...Have at it.

[leaflover]

I love dining out and buying Baseball cards.

LA County Health Dept. allows a tolerable amount of rat urine to be on plates in restaurants before closing them down. I still eat out.
PWCC is auctioning over 17,000 cards in their current action. If 17 of those cards have been altered and gotten by the TPGs that is only 1/10th of 1 percent. I'll take my chances and bid.

Like I said I love BB cards and dining out.